pretty sure you have ghosts
PH weirdness question from an experienced grower
- Thread starter Perfect Sun LED
- Start date
-
- Tags
- ph down ph water raising
Yes, it'll be a headache. But, as I said, if you're seeing that radical a change in a 24 hour period, slowly sliding up the chain, is either a biological contamination issue, or a chemical reaction issue. without knowing a general ballpark area, I don't know what could be in your area. Most of the professional labs that run the water testing costs about 50-250 for the test, and would not only tell you exactly what's in the water, but could save you a lot of worries and headaches, should it turn out to just be something that isn't a real issue, or turns out to be a major issue. Realize that several of the large incidents of well water contamination has been popping up from fracking, dumping, and mproper storage of hazardous materials.
- Thread starter
- #23
Perfect Sun LED
Well-Known Member
The $100 filter that removes VOCs didn't solve the PH issue. All it did was rise a bit slower like the carbon filter sample.
I returned it and got an R/O system. That should fix it.
I never knew you had to sanitize R/O systems before first use with bleach water. That will take at least 30 minutes which blows. Will update with results water after it runs through the R/O system.
I went with one that has a 4 gallon tank and produced 9.8 gallons a day, which is fine because I only feed my plants 5 gallons every two days or three days.
Out doors get regular well water.
Anyone considering an R/O filter, think about how much your water bill will be if you have to pay for water. I don't because I am on a well. The R/O system I guess waste a lot of water, so much that you have to put a drain tube into your drain pipe.
I returned it and got an R/O system. That should fix it.
I never knew you had to sanitize R/O systems before first use with bleach water. That will take at least 30 minutes which blows. Will update with results water after it runs through the R/O system.
I went with one that has a 4 gallon tank and produced 9.8 gallons a day, which is fine because I only feed my plants 5 gallons every two days or three days.
Out doors get regular well water.
Anyone considering an R/O filter, think about how much your water bill will be if you have to pay for water. I don't because I am on a well. The R/O system I guess waste a lot of water, so much that you have to put a drain tube into your drain pipe.
yeah, the home systems only reclaim 10-15% of the water, due to not being able to generate enough pressure to reclaim more. And I wouldn't use that waste water for anything, except the toilet water, since any of the contaminants that were in the original water is in that water now, only more concentrated.
- Thread starter
- #25
Perfect Sun LED
Well-Known Member
Whoa, R/O systems waste 90-85% water? If that is true, that is not economical for someone that has to pay a water bill. Good thing I don't.
- Thread starter
- #27
Perfect Sun LED
Well-Known Member
r/o filter--end result, 60ppm and ph 8.1 -- However it remains very stable. In a glass container, I added 300ppm to the r/o water, bringing the total to 380. Ph went to 6.6. I left it in the open for 14 hours. The ph is 6.7 ppm 380. So it remains stable. I imagine it will slowly rise, but very slowly. I think whatever your resting water PH is, that is what it will slowly return to. If you use a 5.3 distilled water, and ph up to 6.0, it will slowly drop over time.
Distilled water with a $200 unit. Takes 5 hours to make a gallon, which sucks. reduces my well water from 150 to 11 ppm. Ph comes out at 5.1, which is pretty low. I don't want to drink that without adding just a bit of baking soda or something.
Added 550ppm of bloom, then ph up to 6.9. Left it in an open glass for 14 hours. End result, ppm 550 ph 6.8. I imagine when I check again many hours later, the Ph might be 6.7. I am guessing it will slowly drop.
So, I am not very happy with the r/o unit I bought. It only reduces my ppm from 150 to 60. It also produces water way slower than advertised. My water is not hard. I checked that. It claims it will do 9 gallons a day. I am lucky to get a gallon and a half a day. That will not work. However, it produces a 1/4 a gallon in about two hours, but then slows way down. It takes like 12 hours to get a half gallon. Might be water pressure. Either way, it would be a pain to have to empty it into my 5 gallon containers every 2-4 hours to get the fastest water.
Also, the first unit had a broken piece and was not usable, so I had to return it. The one I have now, I found it is missing this little screen for the runoff hose. Lame. Going to return it and try to zerowater filter.
A normal dude on Youtube, not promoting any links or anything, poured his 160ppm water into the zerowater filter and the end result was 14ppm. That is awesome. My distiller gets mine down to 11ppm, but the ph settles at like 4-6-5.1.
The only problem is I have no idea what the PH will be from the zero water filter.
I will let you guys know the results from the zerowater filter. It is only $35 for the 1.5 gallon version at Target. I believe it filters that water in an hour. I will see.
Either way, I figured the cost per gallon over the long run, and all ways about equals out. Distiller for electricity, R/O for the replacement filters and membrane, filling up a 5 gallon container at the automated water filter stations, zerowater filters, etc. All comes to about 144 a year, with how much water I will be using.
So it just comes down to what is the most convenient. Distiller is out of the question unless I bought a very expensive one that makes 4 gallons and is automated. We are talking $500 plus. And the electricity it uses cost almost as much as just filling up 5 gallon containers at the water dispensers.
This R/O filter is out of the question. It's too slow, and still cost me about the same as just filling up my 5 gallon container at the dispenser. It is NOT worth it if you have to pay a water bill. You would be saving tons of money if you just filled up 5 gallon containers at a dispenser. I've seen them as low a $1.80 per 5 gallons.
That leaves me with the zerowater filer and dispensers. I will let you know the result of the zerowater.
Distilled water with a $200 unit. Takes 5 hours to make a gallon, which sucks. reduces my well water from 150 to 11 ppm. Ph comes out at 5.1, which is pretty low. I don't want to drink that without adding just a bit of baking soda or something.
Added 550ppm of bloom, then ph up to 6.9. Left it in an open glass for 14 hours. End result, ppm 550 ph 6.8. I imagine when I check again many hours later, the Ph might be 6.7. I am guessing it will slowly drop.
So, I am not very happy with the r/o unit I bought. It only reduces my ppm from 150 to 60. It also produces water way slower than advertised. My water is not hard. I checked that. It claims it will do 9 gallons a day. I am lucky to get a gallon and a half a day. That will not work. However, it produces a 1/4 a gallon in about two hours, but then slows way down. It takes like 12 hours to get a half gallon. Might be water pressure. Either way, it would be a pain to have to empty it into my 5 gallon containers every 2-4 hours to get the fastest water.
Also, the first unit had a broken piece and was not usable, so I had to return it. The one I have now, I found it is missing this little screen for the runoff hose. Lame. Going to return it and try to zerowater filter.
A normal dude on Youtube, not promoting any links or anything, poured his 160ppm water into the zerowater filter and the end result was 14ppm. That is awesome. My distiller gets mine down to 11ppm, but the ph settles at like 4-6-5.1.
The only problem is I have no idea what the PH will be from the zero water filter.
I will let you guys know the results from the zerowater filter. It is only $35 for the 1.5 gallon version at Target. I believe it filters that water in an hour. I will see.
Either way, I figured the cost per gallon over the long run, and all ways about equals out. Distiller for electricity, R/O for the replacement filters and membrane, filling up a 5 gallon container at the automated water filter stations, zerowater filters, etc. All comes to about 144 a year, with how much water I will be using.
So it just comes down to what is the most convenient. Distiller is out of the question unless I bought a very expensive one that makes 4 gallons and is automated. We are talking $500 plus. And the electricity it uses cost almost as much as just filling up 5 gallon containers at the water dispensers.
This R/O filter is out of the question. It's too slow, and still cost me about the same as just filling up my 5 gallon container at the dispenser. It is NOT worth it if you have to pay a water bill. You would be saving tons of money if you just filled up 5 gallon containers at a dispenser. I've seen them as low a $1.80 per 5 gallons.
That leaves me with the zerowater filer and dispensers. I will let you know the result of the zerowater.
- Thread starter
- #28
Perfect Sun LED
Well-Known Member
I decided to keep the R/O unit because the ppms are getting lower. It is now at 30ppm and 7.3 ppm, and it stays stable without anything in it or with nutrients in it.
The reason the ppms and ph were higher before is because the membrane in the R/O unit comes with food grade preservatives in it, which takes 4 more gallons ran through the system to get out.
So the ppms should get close to 0, hopefully. Also, if I empty it every 2-4 hours, I can easily get 2 gallons a day from it, which isn't too bad. Also because I am only getting 2 gallons a day from it, the filters and membrane should last longer than six months. Six months i how often they are supposed to be changed.
I am going to use the R/O water and buy 5 gallons of filtered water at a time. Primo water at Walmart that you can fill up yourself, only cost .37 cents a gallon. It is R/O or distilled it says, with a little added minerals for tastes. It is 20ppm and 6.7ph.
I also found another place that clams to R/O their water and is only $1.50 for 5 gallons. The problem is--80ppm 7.3ph. So long as it is stable, then I don't care about the 80ppm. I am checking the stability of the Primo water from Walmart's dispenser and the other $1.50 water.
EIther way, I doubt I will use more than 30 gallons a month to feed my plants because I only feed all of my indoor plants with 2 gallons of water every 2 days, and that is only during flowering, when they drink more water.
$11 a month is no big deal.
The reason the ppms and ph were higher before is because the membrane in the R/O unit comes with food grade preservatives in it, which takes 4 more gallons ran through the system to get out.
So the ppms should get close to 0, hopefully. Also, if I empty it every 2-4 hours, I can easily get 2 gallons a day from it, which isn't too bad. Also because I am only getting 2 gallons a day from it, the filters and membrane should last longer than six months. Six months i how often they are supposed to be changed.
I am going to use the R/O water and buy 5 gallons of filtered water at a time. Primo water at Walmart that you can fill up yourself, only cost .37 cents a gallon. It is R/O or distilled it says, with a little added minerals for tastes. It is 20ppm and 6.7ph.
I also found another place that clams to R/O their water and is only $1.50 for 5 gallons. The problem is--80ppm 7.3ph. So long as it is stable, then I don't care about the 80ppm. I am checking the stability of the Primo water from Walmart's dispenser and the other $1.50 water.
EIther way, I doubt I will use more than 30 gallons a month to feed my plants because I only feed all of my indoor plants with 2 gallons of water every 2 days, and that is only during flowering, when they drink more water.
$11 a month is no big deal.
I ran my well water through my charcoal filter, then set it out in the open, room temp 76. Ph started at 7.1, and 15 hours later, it is 7.6. It didn't rise as high as the well water when not ran through the filter, but still, enough that I am going to buy an R/O filter system.
I don't see the need to get the water tested as I will be drinking R/O water now, and so will my plants.
Your waters PH is perfect. What is the problem with the water PH ?
- Thread starter
- #30
Perfect Sun LED
Well-Known Member
Dyoid, with good water the PH remains stable when it an open container, as seen with my distilled water, r/o water, and the two brands of dispensed water.
GOOD NEWS -- r/o filter is now reading 25 ppm and PH of 6.8-it remains 6.8 even after 24 hours in the open air, so it keeps getting better the more the food-grade preservative is removed from the membrane.
All other water tested remained perfect. Stable PH, even the 80ppm dispensed water.
This means I can use either of the dispensed water and my R/O water.
Primo water is 6.7ph and the $1.50 stuff at 80ppm is 7.3ph to 7.4 and remains stable after 24 hours.
GOOD NEWS -- r/o filter is now reading 25 ppm and PH of 6.8-it remains 6.8 even after 24 hours in the open air, so it keeps getting better the more the food-grade preservative is removed from the membrane.
All other water tested remained perfect. Stable PH, even the 80ppm dispensed water.
This means I can use either of the dispensed water and my R/O water.
Primo water is 6.7ph and the $1.50 stuff at 80ppm is 7.3ph to 7.4 and remains stable after 24 hours.
Sounds awesome. However, I still would consider the testing of the well. Even if you switch all drinking and plant watering to the RO system, you are still bathing in it, washing clothes in it, and washing your body in it. If it's got something hinkey in it, it's good to know just what it is you've got.
I know it isn't a grow issue now, since you have an RO filter, but if it was me, I'd get it checked merely as a safety issue. However, if anything, this is a good thing. At least now you KNOW there's something wrong with the water. It's just a matter of what it is.
I know it isn't a grow issue now, since you have an RO filter, but if it was me, I'd get it checked merely as a safety issue. However, if anything, this is a good thing. At least now you KNOW there's something wrong with the water. It's just a matter of what it is.
Brick Top
New Member
Hard water (high mineral content) is usually high in pH. Soft water (low mineral) is usually low in pH. The mineral in hard water will act as a buffer which will reduce the amount of acid in the water. The resulting water will be more alkaline and higher in pH. The problem arises when we try to lower the pH in hard water.
If you add a pH decreaser to hard water, the minerals in the hard water will buffer the water and make it difficult to successfully lower the pH. First you have to remove the minerals from the water before effectively lowering the pH.
The same is true for trying to raise the pH in acidic water that is soft and does not contain much minerasl. Until minerals are added to the water, it will be difficult to successfully alter and maintain a high pH level.
So what to do? It's is not too hard to add mineral in the form of calcium based rock, so making soft water hard and more alkaline (higher in pH) should not be too difficult. To soften hard water, you need to take the mineral out with a water softener, reverse osmosis, or a specialized chemical that irreversibly binds up the mineral. Another option is to find a source of demineralized water.
If you add a pH decreaser to hard water, the minerals in the hard water will buffer the water and make it difficult to successfully lower the pH. First you have to remove the minerals from the water before effectively lowering the pH.
The same is true for trying to raise the pH in acidic water that is soft and does not contain much minerasl. Until minerals are added to the water, it will be difficult to successfully alter and maintain a high pH level.
So what to do? It's is not too hard to add mineral in the form of calcium based rock, so making soft water hard and more alkaline (higher in pH) should not be too difficult. To soften hard water, you need to take the mineral out with a water softener, reverse osmosis, or a specialized chemical that irreversibly binds up the mineral. Another option is to find a source of demineralized water.
Brick Top
New Member
The question that was asked said "What could be in well water that it would buffer the water" so it would change over time?
My reply said precisely what can and will do that. "If you add a pH decreaser to hard water, the minerals in the hard water will buffer the water and make it difficult to successfully lower the pH. First you have to remove the minerals from the water before effectively lowering the pH. The same is true for trying to raise the pH in acidic water that is soft and does not contain much minerals. Until minerals are added to the water, it will be difficult to successfully alter and maintain a high pH level."
Just because a time period for how long it would take for the pH swing to occur due to the buffering wasn't mentioned does not mean the answer does not apply.
The same problem is something people with aquariums have to deal with. They will have the right pH level for their new water and then a day or so later it's off and they have sick or dead fish.
The buffering reaction is not instantaneous, it occurs, alters the pH, over a period of time and that period of time will depend on each individual case or situation depending on degree or amount of mineral content or lack of mineral content.
Is that not the case in what was asked, what could be in well water that would buffer it causing a pH change over time? It sure seems to me like that was asked. Doesn't it appear so to you considering this question was asked? "What could be in well water that it would buffer to 8.1? What is in well water that makes it 7.0 while in the ground, but once in a bucket, and left in the bucket for 12 hours it raises to 8.1?
Several years back I read of a similar problem that was causing plant problems from a member of a different site who lived in Romania. He received the same sort of replies given here and his problems did not go away. They did though after I told him how minerals or lack of minerals in well water will cause a slow change in pH ans he did what was needed to keep it from happening.
I am sorry that you misunderstood the question that was asked and that you also misunderstood my reply and it's direct connection to what was asked.
- Thread starter
- #35
Perfect Sun LED
Well-Known Member
I agree. I do plan to have it tested once I get paid.
- Thread starter
- #36
Perfect Sun LED
Well-Known Member
Brick top, yeah, that answer is correct for why Ph will swing. However, all water that I have tested keeps a stable PH if in a closed container, even my well water, not filtered in anyway. It only raises from 7.1 to 8.1 when not in a closed container.
UPDATE
My r/o filtered water remains the most stable over time when the PH drops from added Bloom by Ionic.
R/O -- Added Ionic Bloom until PH was 5.8. After 24 hours or so, it is 6.1- pretty stable.
Primo Walmart R/O and or distilled water they sell at the self serve station -- Ph with Bloom to 5.8, and 24 hours later or so, it is 6.2 -- pretty stable.
Local water dispenser $1.50 per 5 gallons. Bloom added until water went from 7.4 to 6.2-- 24 hours later = ph of 6.8 Seems pretty stable.
It seems water naturally wants to return to it's natural PH. However, with my distilled water that I made, even after adding bloom and Ph up to get it to acceptable plant levels, it remained stable. The PH didn't drift back down to it's naturally low 5.1 ph.
This is an interesting experiment.
UPDATE
My r/o filtered water remains the most stable over time when the PH drops from added Bloom by Ionic.
R/O -- Added Ionic Bloom until PH was 5.8. After 24 hours or so, it is 6.1- pretty stable.
Primo Walmart R/O and or distilled water they sell at the self serve station -- Ph with Bloom to 5.8, and 24 hours later or so, it is 6.2 -- pretty stable.
Local water dispenser $1.50 per 5 gallons. Bloom added until water went from 7.4 to 6.2-- 24 hours later = ph of 6.8 Seems pretty stable.
It seems water naturally wants to return to it's natural PH. However, with my distilled water that I made, even after adding bloom and Ph up to get it to acceptable plant levels, it remained stable. The PH didn't drift back down to it's naturally low 5.1 ph.
This is an interesting experiment.
- Thread starter
- #38
Perfect Sun LED
Well-Known Member
I called a water place to have my water tested. I told them how the ph jumps from 7.1 to 8.1 when not ran through my r/o filter. He said that was perfectly normal for being in the open air. He said the only thing he would recommend me checking it for is bacteria, and said that bacteria wouldn't cause ph to rise. I guess I could get it checked for VOCs. Not sure they really matter for showering.
All those test samples I left out until today. Guess what? The Ph remained the same for all three, the r/o, the primo from Walmart, and the $1.50 per 5 gallons one. Oh, also the distilled water I made with my distiller. All stayed the same ph for many days. I figured that is long enough to see if they would remain stable.
So, for deep water culture, damn right I will use r/o water.
All those test samples I left out until today. Guess what? The Ph remained the same for all three, the r/o, the primo from Walmart, and the $1.50 per 5 gallons one. Oh, also the distilled water I made with my distiller. All stayed the same ph for many days. I figured that is long enough to see if they would remain stable.
So, for deep water culture, damn right I will use r/o water.
