New grower here that's learning as I go and having a blast. Got young veg plants in 3 gallon pots. A couple days ago on one of the plants I noticed yellow tips (small) on some of the new growth and some of the mature leaves are curling down. I truly cant point out what caused it is but this is what I've broken it down to. I really like to get everyone's opinion and remedy. 1. Light Nutrient Burn. 10 days ago I transplanted from 16 oz cups to 3 gallon using Foxfarm. The same day, I added 2mgl each of Hyrdophonics Micro, Bloom and Cal Mag in 1 gallon water (Ph 6.7) I've heard of people burning thier plants and gave it a low dose but could the nutrients, but could my lie dose still be too much with the Fox Farm Soil nutrients that the plant didn't get a chance to use?? How do you truly know when to start using liquid nutrients? Or when the plant is done utilizing the soil nutrients? How do you test the soil ppm? 2. Overwater. As a new grower I thought it was standard to water the plant at least every 3 days. I did the knuckle test to see how dry the soil is. Let's just say I never let the soil dry out, giving it a little water at a time and as much as half a gallon. So it's really good to let the soil dry out? Is it still good practice to go a week or so without watering. Is flushing the soil because of nutrient burn the same as overwatering? 3. Stress. A couple days before I noticed the yellow tips, I did my first top. Not only have i noticed yellow tips but a slow in growth. (Just did my first LST earlier this evening.
Plant Diagnoses
- Thread starter Kwest78
- Start date
Pbass
Well-Known Member
Hiya @Kwest78 , welcome! Plants look pretty darn good and I'm pretty darn new, but:
1) I'd agree, light nutrient burn. They look a bit young and if your soil is nuted too, you could be zapping them a bit too strong with the food. I run 25% strength in the beginning with just plain soil. Seems like it's pretty widely agreed apon that the nute manufacturers all suggest a too hot schedule.
2) I was watering on MY schedule for a while in my first grow (only just finishing my second now) about every 3 days or so. I found I wasn't letting the plants dry nearly enough. Now I let them go bone dry to the bottom of the pot (I can see the soil through the drain holes in my pots) and let them get light as a feather. Might take a week, might take 2 days...its all up to the plant not me. They absolutely love going dry, I think they look most happy just before they are so dry they start to sag.
3) Top might slow it a bit, but not much is what I've seen. I'd guess they are slowing because of the water/over nutrient issue.
Check out @Emilya she is Pot Yoda and has ALOT of great suggestions and techniques in the articles she's written for us, all linked in her sig.
Also, if you can, get a journal going to document your grow. It's as easy as picking a fun name and starting a new thread in "journals in progress" under the grow journals subcatagory. You will be super happy to be able to refer back to it later, plus all the big pot brains will be able to follow your progress and help you in the appropriate area for ongoing support.
Cheers mate, luck to your grow!
1) I'd agree, light nutrient burn. They look a bit young and if your soil is nuted too, you could be zapping them a bit too strong with the food. I run 25% strength in the beginning with just plain soil. Seems like it's pretty widely agreed apon that the nute manufacturers all suggest a too hot schedule.
2) I was watering on MY schedule for a while in my first grow (only just finishing my second now) about every 3 days or so. I found I wasn't letting the plants dry nearly enough. Now I let them go bone dry to the bottom of the pot (I can see the soil through the drain holes in my pots) and let them get light as a feather. Might take a week, might take 2 days...its all up to the plant not me. They absolutely love going dry, I think they look most happy just before they are so dry they start to sag.
3) Top might slow it a bit, but not much is what I've seen. I'd guess they are slowing because of the water/over nutrient issue.
Check out @Emilya she is Pot Yoda and has ALOT of great suggestions and techniques in the articles she's written for us, all linked in her sig.
Also, if you can, get a journal going to document your grow. It's as easy as picking a fun name and starting a new thread in "journals in progress" under the grow journals subcatagory. You will be super happy to be able to refer back to it later, plus all the big pot brains will be able to follow your progress and help you in the appropriate area for ongoing support.
Cheers mate, luck to your grow!
Welcome.
jetsgrower
Well-Known Member
welcome and good luck
Nunyabiz
Well-Known Member
1. Yes, you transplanted I assume a fairly small plant from a cup to 3 gallons of fresh soil that is already got decent nutrients and then added more nutrients, thus got nutrient burn. The leaves curling a bit probably from a bit to much nitrogen all at once from the fresh soil plus veg nutrients.
FFOF should be good for about 3 weeks in a 3 gallon pot in veg stage, bit longer in larger pots.
2. Well here is where I guess I differ from probably about 99% of everyone else on this site it seems.
IMO, you are correct, you should be watering AT LEAST every 3 days especially if you're in a small 3 gallon pot and double plus especially if it's a fabric pot.
IF your soil is properly aerated and you're in "fabric" pots which breathe on all sides and help create a much more massive root mass by air pruning plus you have proper air flow in the room then your soil should be very much the same as coco coir, should stay moist at all times.
Getting oxygen to the roots by having to let it dry out is the worst thing you can do IMO.
It may be necessary to do if you're basically growing in mud but the problem isn't that you're overwatering, the problem is that you're growing in mud.
The solution is not to keep growing in mud in a small plastic pot that was literally designed to retard root growth and keep plants small and more manageable to sell at nurseries.
The solution is to get your plants roots into a Living Breathing Soil and in enough of it so the root mass can easily feed the plant to it's full potential.
This is accomplished by making sure your soil has about 30 to 35% of good aeration in the form of Rice Hulls, Precharged Biochar, and Pumice.
Now if you choose to bottle feed then you're good to go with the other 70% being Coco, Peat Moss or a mixture of those and never hurts to add some Earth Worm Castings just outa spite.
If you want a Living Organic Soil then you're going to need about 30% good aged compost, various amendments like kelp meal, alfalfa meal, oyster shell flour and so on, plus the Peat moss and inoculate with mycorrhazae, give enzyme teas, add worms, plant a cover crop and yadda yadda.
But the main thing is that your soil is nice and loose, doesn't compact and it breathes.
Then the roots get oxygen constantly, they get it from the "dissolved oxygen" in your water, the tiny pores and holes from the biochar and pumice that hold onto that dissolved oxygen that you should be adding every 2 days on average, in mid to late flower I give at least 2 gallons of water to my plants every 24 to 36 hours and they drink it right on up like a drunken sailor.
If you're in a 3 gallon plastic pot and your soil stays very moist almost wet for like 4 to even 7 days before it dries out then your roots are getting very little dissolved oxygen for days at a time and your roots don't branch out much and swirl around the bottom of the pot so they aren't drinking much at all.
I use 25 gallon fabric pots, in a LOS with a cover crop that drinks water, with hundreds of worms that keep the soil loose, even the microbes use water, and the soil is at least 30% aeration in a pot that breathes and my roots are a very thick mat that covers the entire pot plus the mycorrhazae effectively add about 1000x the root surface area. All of this uses water.
I also super oxygenate my water with 02 emitters to raise my dissolved oxygen as high as possible.
I am about to water my plants soon as I post this, watering with 2 gallons each pot with just a teaspoon of Yucca extract in little over 4 gallons of water that I oxygenate for about an hour.
At this point in growth which is 3 weeks and 5 days into flower they wont even droop after 2+ gallons of water, if anything in about 30 to 45 minutes after watering they are praying harder.
That's because when I water it's like a breath of fresh air, they aren't drowning in mud, it's like I am placing an oxygen mask to the roots and they take a big deep breath.
So IMO if you water and the soil stays wet for days even in a small pot then the solution is to fix the soil.
Has nothing to do with over watering.
It should be very hard to over water.
3. Slowed growth could be caused by any number of factors.
FFOF should be good for about 3 weeks in a 3 gallon pot in veg stage, bit longer in larger pots.
2. Well here is where I guess I differ from probably about 99% of everyone else on this site it seems.
IMO, you are correct, you should be watering AT LEAST every 3 days especially if you're in a small 3 gallon pot and double plus especially if it's a fabric pot.
IF your soil is properly aerated and you're in "fabric" pots which breathe on all sides and help create a much more massive root mass by air pruning plus you have proper air flow in the room then your soil should be very much the same as coco coir, should stay moist at all times.
Getting oxygen to the roots by having to let it dry out is the worst thing you can do IMO.
It may be necessary to do if you're basically growing in mud but the problem isn't that you're overwatering, the problem is that you're growing in mud.
The solution is not to keep growing in mud in a small plastic pot that was literally designed to retard root growth and keep plants small and more manageable to sell at nurseries.
The solution is to get your plants roots into a Living Breathing Soil and in enough of it so the root mass can easily feed the plant to it's full potential.
This is accomplished by making sure your soil has about 30 to 35% of good aeration in the form of Rice Hulls, Precharged Biochar, and Pumice.
Now if you choose to bottle feed then you're good to go with the other 70% being Coco, Peat Moss or a mixture of those and never hurts to add some Earth Worm Castings just outa spite.
If you want a Living Organic Soil then you're going to need about 30% good aged compost, various amendments like kelp meal, alfalfa meal, oyster shell flour and so on, plus the Peat moss and inoculate with mycorrhazae, give enzyme teas, add worms, plant a cover crop and yadda yadda.
But the main thing is that your soil is nice and loose, doesn't compact and it breathes.
Then the roots get oxygen constantly, they get it from the "dissolved oxygen" in your water, the tiny pores and holes from the biochar and pumice that hold onto that dissolved oxygen that you should be adding every 2 days on average, in mid to late flower I give at least 2 gallons of water to my plants every 24 to 36 hours and they drink it right on up like a drunken sailor.
If you're in a 3 gallon plastic pot and your soil stays very moist almost wet for like 4 to even 7 days before it dries out then your roots are getting very little dissolved oxygen for days at a time and your roots don't branch out much and swirl around the bottom of the pot so they aren't drinking much at all.
I use 25 gallon fabric pots, in a LOS with a cover crop that drinks water, with hundreds of worms that keep the soil loose, even the microbes use water, and the soil is at least 30% aeration in a pot that breathes and my roots are a very thick mat that covers the entire pot plus the mycorrhazae effectively add about 1000x the root surface area. All of this uses water.
I also super oxygenate my water with 02 emitters to raise my dissolved oxygen as high as possible.
I am about to water my plants soon as I post this, watering with 2 gallons each pot with just a teaspoon of Yucca extract in little over 4 gallons of water that I oxygenate for about an hour.
At this point in growth which is 3 weeks and 5 days into flower they wont even droop after 2+ gallons of water, if anything in about 30 to 45 minutes after watering they are praying harder.
That's because when I water it's like a breath of fresh air, they aren't drowning in mud, it's like I am placing an oxygen mask to the roots and they take a big deep breath.
So IMO if you water and the soil stays wet for days even in a small pot then the solution is to fix the soil.
Has nothing to do with over watering.
It should be very hard to over water.
3. Slowed growth could be caused by any number of factors.
Mastrmasn
Well-Known Member
Welcome to 420! Plants look good so far.
Barney86
Well-Known Member
Hey buddy I'm not a soil grower but to know when to start feeding you wait for the bottom fan leaves to start turning yellow. If anything else happens first it's more likely a ph issue. Yellow bottoms is Nitrogen def and when you starve them it's usually the first thing to appear.
Wait till they go yellow then quarter strength nutes for a couple weeks till they go yellow again then up to half strength etc etc.
Go up too fast and you'll have a messy clean up operation on your hands.
Do it that way and the worst that can happen is a few leaves, that you'd be chopping off anyway, turn yellow.
Rusty spots or mid growth loses colour they need calmag.
Tops go yellow it's usually iron def.
Not a soil grower so no idea what you should do right now but thought I'd answer that bit seeing as I could. It's the safest way I know of to feed a plant. Works every time
hope it works out for ya buddy. Keep it green.
Wait till they go yellow then quarter strength nutes for a couple weeks till they go yellow again then up to half strength etc etc.
Go up too fast and you'll have a messy clean up operation on your hands.
Do it that way and the worst that can happen is a few leaves, that you'd be chopping off anyway, turn yellow.
Rusty spots or mid growth loses colour they need calmag.
Tops go yellow it's usually iron def.
Not a soil grower so no idea what you should do right now but thought I'd answer that bit seeing as I could. It's the safest way I know of to feed a plant. Works every time
hope it works out for ya buddy. Keep it green.
Emilya Green
Well-Known Member
Your plants most likely do not need nutrients right now in any of the FF soils, especially if you are in Ocean Forest. This soil has everything your plants will need, until about week 5, and if you are successively uppotting into fresh soil later on you could go even further than that and not really need additional nutes until bloom.
The picture of your plants reflects what you have done... you have supplied nutes in excess to what was needed and as a result you got some light clawing and burned tips. No biggie... just dont do that again. All you need is water for right now, and certainly the hydro nutes were not the best choice you could have made.
There is no test of soil PPM... that is a meaningless concept. If some hydro person is advising you to test soil ppm or soil pH, tell them they do not know what they are talking about.
As far as watering goes, the knuckle method of seeing if the soil is dry at the top is EXACTLY THE WRONG WAY to test whether you need to water a weed. Weeds need to dry out in veg all the way down to the bottom, so that oxygen can be pulled down deep into the container. If you water every time the top gets dry, you will end up drowning your plants. You need to read my article on how to properly water a plant, and the link is down below. This should answer a lot of your questions about how much to water and how often.
Let me define flushing for you... flushing is sending 3x the container size in water through the soil, washing out all debris and accumulated nutes. Properly giving only water between each feeding is not flushing, it is simply giving water to use up any nutes not used on the first pass. If you water next time with properly pH adjusted water, you will use the extra nutes that you have already supplied, and things will start to level out for you.
Lastly, you adjusted your pH to 6.7. The soil is probably rated at a 6.8 base pH. When you watered at this high pH, as the soil dried out it drifted the pH one point, maybe a little more. Since the usable pH range in soil is 6.2-6.8, you barely scraped the upper end of the range, missing out on any nutrients that are only mobile at more acidic levels. In soil, especially a strongly drifting soil such as FFOF, it is always recommended to come in at a pH of 6.3, mathematically the point in the range where the most nutes are the most mobile. With you watering at the upper end, it is no wonder that you are beginning to see problems... adjust to 6.3 every time and things will get better for you.
Barney86
Well-Known Member
Teehee I know that comment was for me and no I didn't lol. I know better than that Emilya. I know i made a similar comment the other day somewhere so how about we just call it even, be grown ups and move on.
I've been a bit of a knob to you a few times recently and I apologise. Been going through some stuff and my wind up button has been set to blow for a while. Real world shit. I stay here cos it keeps me off fuck me in the face with a brick book but I do still have my moments and I'm sorry.
You know more about soil I know more about hydro. We're even lol.
I'm actually considering soil as an experiment btw. Another grower i think youve seen got some scary stuff in water fed, shop bought soil so I'm genuinely considering it.
Won't be at home but think I've found somewhere so I might be asking your advice soon enough
I've been a bit of a knob to you a few times recently and I apologise. Been going through some stuff and my wind up button has been set to blow for a while. Real world shit. I stay here cos it keeps me off fuck me in the face with a brick book but I do still have my moments and I'm sorry.
You know more about soil I know more about hydro. We're even lol.
I'm actually considering soil as an experiment btw. Another grower i think youve seen got some scary stuff in water fed, shop bought soil so I'm genuinely considering it.
Won't be at home but think I've found somewhere so I might be asking your advice soon enough
