Question About Nutrients vs. pH Level

[unkied]

Hi all,
I hope this is an easy question to answer, but I'm new to this, and can't find any "Mixing Nutrients in Water For Dummies" book, so I'll ask here:

My 4 girls are 9 weeks old, living in FFOF, and I want to get my nutes to most commonly recommended levels - I see the levels recommended range anywhere from 800 ppm up to 2000 ppm depending on the source, along with recommended pH level of around 6.5 or so. I realize those ppm #s are inflated by manufacturers, but even if I halve those numbers, I can't get anywhere near those levels without my pH dropping like a stone.

Specific Example:
I started with tap water in a 5 gallon bucket. pH level of 7.9, PPM 51. I slowly added Flora Bloom 0-5-4, 1 tsp at a time, checking pH and EC each time.

1st tsp, pH dropped to 7.5, ppm rose to 72
2nd tsp, pH dropped to 7.23, ppm rose to 98
3rd tsp, pH dropped to 6.8, ppm rose to 144
.... ... etc etc, 'till
12th tsp, pH dropped to 5.93, ppm rose to (only) 469.

SO, is this a common issue? I can't imagine what the pH would be if I kept going all the way up to say 800 ppm (or 1000-1500 as some charts indicate it should be) !?

I don't want to put water pH'ed to 5.9 in my soil do I? Does everybody planting in soil have to use pH UP and if so, in large amounts, every time they make up a batch? Is it just that my water is weird or something? Am I being Anal?

Any insight would be appreciated.

 

[The Germinator]

Get your ppm right where you want it then adjust ph.

 

[Scientific]

FloraBloom is 1/3 of the three-bottle FloraSeries fertilizers. Are you adding the FloraGro and FloraMicro as well?

General Hydroponics has feeding schedules online that you can use. I'd recommend using half what they recommend.

2000 PPM is WAY too much!

 

[Scientific]

> pH level of 7.9

That's very alkaline. How many PPM is your water out of the tap?

 

[Scientific]

Am I being Anal?

No. Getting your water and nutes right is really important, so paying close attention, especially when you're getting started, is a GOOD thing.

 

[Marzbadrock]

Just something to throw out there. FFOF is a organic soil with natural buffers in it which allows the soils pH to change from acidic when wet to alkaline when dry. This allows the root system to pick up different elements at different pH levels. If your gonna grow in organic soil then try using organic nutrients like nature's nectar or earth juice without pH your water/feed. If you want to grow using synthetic nutrients then try growing in coco, hempy or straight up hydro and adjust your pH accordingly. When you try mixing organic and synthetic you end up killing benificial micro organisms, bacteria n fungi.....and cause more problems.

 

[unkied]

Get your ppm right where you want it then adjust ph.

Yup, I know to first add the nutes, then adjust. I'm just worried I will need a boatload of PH up, and wonder how it will affect things, and maybe also wonder what it will do to the ppm level.

I guess I am really just wondering if this is more or less a normal thing that everybody has to go through, is there some other evil external force that is making the pH drop down so low, from 7.9 to under 6, with that final ppm of only 469.

 

[The Germinator]

Yup, I know to first add the nutes, then adjust. I'm just worried I will need a boatload of PH up, and wonder how it will affect things, and maybe also wonder what it will do to the ppm level.

I guess I am really just wondering if this is more or less a normal thing that everybody has to go through, is there some other evil external force that is making the pH drop down so low, from 7.9 to under 6, with that final ppm of only 469.

You said you had your ppm at almost 500 and it was at 5.9 ph. I don't think it'd drop much more if you raised it to say 800ppm. Prob only take a teaspooon of ph up to get it to 6.5. I think your over thinking it. I use the flora trio and mine doesn't drop like that. So it seems wierd. Scientific asked if your using bloom only.

 

[OldMedUser]

Guys still supporting nute companies that have done their best to deny they sell nutes used for growing pot and are now owned by Scotts Miracle-Gro the crappiest company to get soil or nutes from.

You'll be able to get them at WalMart soon re-formulated with free added extra heavy metals like their other nutes!

Save money, die younger and leave a good looking corpse! LOL

 

[unkied]

> pH level of 7.9

That's very alkaline. How many PPM is your water out of the tap?

Out of the tap, the ppm is 51. pH will vary between 7.9 and 8.3 or so. It's deep well water. I feel lucky - it tastes good, no odor, no nothin'. Actually had a water test done by a major University last year (was a freebie teaching tool they offered) and it came back with a gold star, but unfortunately I can't find the damn thing now. Would be good to see what all the analysis showed was making up that 51 ppm.

 

[Scientific]

Guys still supporting nute companies that have done their best to deny they sell nutes used for growing pot and are now owned by Scotts Miracle-Gro the crappiest company to get soil or nutes from.

You'll be able to get them at WalMart soon re-formulated with free added extra heavy metals like their other nutes!

Save money, die younger and leave a good looking corpse! LOL

Do you have a reputable source about those "added extra heavy metals"? Why would they sabotage their company and open themselves to lawsuits? In any case, this is off-topic.

 

[Scientific]

Scientific asked if your using bloom only.

Yeah, I really think that's the first question. Are you even adding the right fertilizer in the right ratios?

So are you using just FloraBloom or FloraMicro and FloraGro as well as you're s'posed to?

 

[unkied]

Hey Scientific,

I am using only the FloraBloom at present. I've read several posts in various forums where the growers are using that product exclusively during flowering with good results. So I bought some! I feel off-put by paying somebody for one of those 3 part "systems"; seems like I am just paying a lot of money for nutrients I already have or can provide in the same relative proportions. I am cheap DIY at heart I guess. I am new to this type of growing but not to regular ol' outdoor garden growing, at it 40 or more yrs, and can usually tell by looking at the plant what it wants. Maybe I'm wrong, but hey I'm old and stubborn. I've just never had to deal with or worry about pH before since its all been outdoors.

I have all the feeding charts from all the major sources, Fox Farms, General Hyro, Advanced Nutrients, etc, punched into an Excel, and I can easily see what they are doing with the products, their NPK ratios, their frequency and their strength etc. They all show the same "theme" - start with balance with upped Nitrogen and slightly upped Potassium, migrate towards Phosphorus and Potassium, drop the N, raise the K, raise the P etc. etc depending on #weeks. I have convinced myself (maybe wrongly so) that the same feeding regimen can be replicated using good old, off the shelf Ferts, Like Jakes 20-20-20 or Jakes 10-30-20 Bloom Buster, with some 0-0-17 MaxiCrop thrown in, all at a fraction of the cost, quantity-wise, of those 3 part Quart Bottles with the Groovy Labels.

So, I've been feeding the girls a hodge-podge potion thus far. Started them with higher nitrogen, actually very very low doses, maybe 150 ppm, of regular ol' Miracle Gro starting around week 3, then backed off on that (I know FFOF has "all the nutrients I'll ever need ) . I also am fond of Maxicrop soluble Seaweed, and fed and foliar fed them for a while. Weeks 6 and 7 I started having problems with them related to browning of leave edges, not just tips. Depending on the source, it was one of: A) nutrient burn - near impossible I figure, B) potassium deficiency, C) Sulfur deficiency, D) Magnesium deficiency, E) Nutrient Lockout, F) Phosphorous toxicity, etc. etc. etc. I posted in a different thread here ( Worried parent - Are my plants OK? ) with good pictures, but got not a single reply. Then I tried again in another post, and nothing definitive. So I FLUSHED em' all. Then I weaned back slowing with very low level of 20-20-20. They are still getting brown edges even after flush, but not getting worse.
Now I am trying to get back on track. And so here I am.

 

[unkied]

You said you had your ppm at almost 500 and it was at 5.9 ph. I don't think it'd drop much more if you raised it to say 800ppm. Prob only take a teaspooon of ph up to get it to 6.5. I think your over thinking it. I use the flora trio and mine doesn't drop like that. So it seems wierd. Scientific asked if your using bloom only.

Thanks for the info Germinator. I suspect you may be right, I just put the brakes on when I saw it hit under 6 pH knowing in the past, being less fastidious, knocked it down even lower, and didn't to end up a lot more worse off, and, I'm stingy and it took an hour start to finish to get to tsp #12 and I didn't want to dump it, cause I need to feed my plants. I don't have any "store bought" pH UP (yet) so I used baking soda to bring it back up to 6.3. took about 3 tsp. I'm a cheapskate, and on a budget and trying not to spend more on growing these than I will get back in return. I would prefer if I could make up my own pH UP rather than pay the inflated price they charge. Like they've got me by the balls. Example: when I learned what is in pH Down (phosphoric acid), I dug deep into the topic, and now just make my own. Bought a carton of Battery Acid (pure sulfuric acid and water 33%) at Napa for 9 bucks, found a few recipes for proper distilled water to acid ratio per gallon to replicate the strength/pH of pH Down, and now I have a gallon of pH Down equivalent, and enough leftover acid for maybe another 10 gallons. 9 Bucks.

And maybe you are also on to something with using the trio - it's possible that the combination of the three is buffering differently than when used separately. And yes, I am using only FloraBloom at present - see my reply to him on that topic. Also thinking outside the box a bit, maybe the initial stuff in my tap water, the 51 ppm, is different stuff than in your water, and the stuff in your water buffers more than the stuff in my water ???

But yup, maybe I AM overthinking this - I will give trying a few more tsp a shot and cross my fingers. BTW, what level of ppm do YOU give for plants in week 9 going on 10? Is 800 enough, does it depend on the mix of ingredients, or ?

 

[Marzbadrock]

Next batch of FFOF or you get try looking into the soil pH itself. Water it with neutral water n collect the runoff, it will be PH range of 4.8 to 5.4. Check the soil itself with a soil probe, it will be in the same range. As the soil dries it will gradually climb back up to PH of 7. Jus something to look into

 

[Scientific]

Hey Scientific,

I am using only the FloraBloom at present. I've read several posts in various forums where the growers are using that product exclusively during flowering with good results. So I bought some! I feel off-put by paying somebody for one of those 3 part "systems"; seems like I am just paying a lot of money for nutrients I already have or can provide in the same relative proportions. I am cheap DIY at heart I guess. I am new to this type of growing but not to regular ol' outdoor garden growing, at it 40 or more yrs, and can usually tell by looking at the plant what it wants. Maybe I'm wrong, but hey I'm old and stubborn. I've just never had to deal with or worry about pH before since its all been outdoors.

I have all the feeding charts from all the major sources, Fox Farms, General Hyro, Advanced Nutrients, etc, punched into an Excel, and I can easily see what they are doing with the products, their NPK ratios, their frequency and their strength etc. They all show the same "theme" - start with balance with upped Nitrogen and slightly upped Potassium, migrate towards Phosphorus and Potassium, drop the N, raise the K, raise the P etc. etc depending on #weeks. I have convinced myself (maybe wrongly so) that the same feeding regimen can be replicated using good old, off the shelf Ferts, Like Jakes 20-20-20 or Jakes 10-30-20 Bloom Buster, with some 0-0-17 MaxiCrop thrown in, all at a fraction of the cost, quantity-wise, of those 3 part Quart Bottles with the Groovy Labels.

So, I've been feeding the girls a hodge-podge potion thus far. Started them with higher nitrogen, actually very very low doses, maybe 150 ppm, of regular ol' Miracle Gro starting around week 3, then backed off on that (I know FFOF has "all the nutrients I'll ever need ) . I also am fond of Maxicrop soluble Seaweed, and fed and foliar fed them for a while. Weeks 6 and 7 I started having problems with them related to browning of leave edges, not just tips. Depending on the source, it was one of: A) nutrient burn - near impossible I figure, B) potassium deficiency, C) Sulfur deficiency, D) Magnesium deficiency, E) Nutrient Lockout, F) Phosphorous toxicity, etc. etc. etc. I posted in a different thread here ( Worried parent - Are my plants OK? ) with good pictures, but got not a single reply. Then I tried again in another post, and nothing definitive. So I FLUSHED em' all. Then I weaned back slowing with very low level of 20-20-20. They are still getting brown edges even after flush, but not getting worse.
Now I am trying to get back on track. And so here I am.

Sounds like you've got it figured so I'll drop off here. Do remember though that plants also need the micronutrients, a.k.a. trace elements provided in one of the other bottles you feel off-put paying for. Good luck!

 

[unkied]

Next batch of FFOF or you get try looking into the soil pH itself. Water it with neutral water n collect the runoff, it will be PH range of 4.8 to 5.4. Check the soil itself with a soil probe, it will be in the same range. As the soil dries it will gradually climb back up to PH of 7. Jus something to look into

Ah, cool. I didn't know that. Bag just says "Ocean Forest is pH adjusted at 6.3 to 6.8 to allow for optimum fertilizer uptake". I thought that meant it is locked in at those levels. So if I get this right, what happens is when wet it drops down, then when drying comes back up, and this, in turn, allows the different nutrients that the system only pulls in at certain pH levels, to all get pulled in with an "equal playing field" so to speak, yes?

Also makes me wonder the wisdom of even measuring run-off water pH, since that's only a "transient" value.

However, btw, I did a flush of one girl last week who seemed to be falling behind, had leaf discoloration issues, etc. It's in 5 gal smart pot, filled maybe 4 gal worth, I flushed with pH 6.5 and pushed 15 gallons thru it (slowly) into empty 5 gal bucket, 5 gallons at a time and measured ppm and pH every 5. This time the pH never dropped below 6.1, and by last bucket, ppm in and pH in matched ppm out and pH out, so maybe this FFOF 'adjusted' pH stuff wears out after a while (as presumably the nutes do too)?


Thanks for the reply and the info.

 

[unkied]

Scientific,

Thanks for all your input. I can use all the help I can get.

 

[Marzbadrock]

Ah, cool. I didn't know that. Bag just says "Ocean Forest is pH adjusted at 6.3 to 6.8 to allow for optimum fertilizer uptake". I thought that meant it is locked in at those levels. So if I get this right, what happens is when wet it drops down, then when drying comes back up, and this, in turn, allows the different nutrients that the system only pulls in at certain pH levels, to all get pulled in with an "equal playing field" so to speak, yes?

Also makes me wonder the wisdom of even measuring run-off water pH, since that's only a "transient" value.

However, btw, I did a flush of one girl last week who seemed to be falling behind, had leaf discoloration issues, etc. It's in 5 gal smart pot, filled maybe 4 gal worth, I flushed with pH 6.5 and pushed 15 gallons thru it (slowly) into empty 5 gal bucket, 5 gallons at a time and measured ppm and pH every 5. This time the pH never dropped below 6.1, and by last bucket, ppm in and pH in matched ppm out and pH out, so maybe this FFOF 'adjusted' pH stuff wears out after a while (as presumably the nutes do too)?


Thanks for the reply and the info.

Sorry it's been a number of years since I played around with the FFOF n I miss spoke. If you water with neutral water your runoff will be mid 5 to low 6.....buffered by the low 5 soil ph. The soil probe will show 4.8 to 5.4
But to answer your question yes the soil will vary in ph to allow full spectrum of intake.

 

[Marzbadrock]

And I know measuring runoff is not the most reliable test but it gives a better understanding on what's going on in the soil itself.