Question about Veg period?

[old_skool]

A questions to the guru's. I am wondering why the use of fluros during the veg period when a HPS system can be used for the entire grow?? I understand that some people use fluros because they don't have access or it is cost prohibitive.

My question is geared toward growers that have the access to a HPS system, and since reading <a href="https://www.nomercy.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=241">Atmosphere's grow</a> he stated: "This proves you don't need a veg. period . Plants over 40 inches tall are not suited for indoor growing because the light will never penetrate that far."

My understanding of the use of fluros during the veg period is to make them grow bigger root and height wise. But, doesn't this increase the grow time and if the same or not better can be accomplished with an HPS system on 12/12 why use fluros?

I know about the other spectrum's of light so I bought a 400W Horticultural HPS bulb that puts out 55,000 lumen's and "also provides 30% more "blue spectrum" Doesn't this cover all the spectrum's needed for a successful grow?

To explain I have never grown with fluorescent bulbs. 30 years ago it was all el natural lighting either indoors or out, so the use of fluorescent bulbs for veg bewilders me.



Thanks,
Old Skool

 

[Boss]

Re: Question about Veg period???

LOL. The idea of 12/12 is for height restrictions and 6 or 7 harvests a year. Not to mention 75 days start to finish. No light loss, no bendy breaky, no screens (you can use one if you want though) It's just a method. It's not right or wrong, it just has it's place along side the rest. If you want, try vegging them 2 weeks, cut the bottom nodes off and flower without screens. They will get to 3.5-4 feet instead on just 3 ;-)

Just happens that in my situation, it fit the bill. If you read up on Atmospheres grow at nomercy.nl not to mention Cees, you will get a better idea if this method will work well for you.

 

[Boss]

Re: Question about Veg period???

There was no time difference with the cfls. They may even finish faster. But like MH, finishing a week earlier with 30-50% less yeild is hardly a trade off

A questions to the guru's. I am wondering why the use of fluros during the veg period when a HPS system can be used for the entire grow?? I understand that some people use fluros because they don't have access or it is cost prohibitive.

My question is geared toward growers that have the access to a HPS system, and since reading <a href="https://www.nomercy.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=241">Atmosphere's grow</a> he stated: "This proves you don't need a veg. period . Plants over 40 inches tall are not suited for indoor growing because the light will never penetrate that far."

My understanding of the use of fluros during the veg period is to make them grow bigger root and height wise. But, doesn't this increase the grow time and if the same or not better can be accomplished with an HPS system on 12/12 why use fluros?

I know about the other spectrum's of light so I bought a 400W Horticultural HPS bulb that puts out 55,000 lumen's and "also provides 30% more "blue spectrum" Doesn't this cover all the spectrum's needed for a successful grow?

To explain I have never grown with fluorescent bulbs. 30 years ago it was all el natural lighting either indoors or out, so the use of fluorescent bulbs for veg bewilders me.



Thanks,
Old Skool

 

[Boss]

Re: Question about Veg period???

This was a good read.

Reference Points

Outside Daylight: This is the biggy! Direct outside daylight in the summer time is somewhere in the
neighborhood of 10,000 foot candles. This is equal to 10,000 lumens per square foot. If you already
know a little bit about lighting, you will find this really amazing. If not, as our discussion continues this
will eventually hit you as amazing.

Overcast Daylight: 1,000 foot candles.

Open Shade: While standing under a large tall tree, you experience the amount of light referred to as
open shade. The light intensity you experience here is somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 foot
candles.

Deep Shade: 50 to 100 foot candles.
Average Lit Room: 5 to 10 foot candles.
Full Moonlight: .02 foot candles.
Starlight: .00011 foot candles

Now is this amazing or what? The human eye is extremely sensitive, it can see from daylight all the
way down to starlight (one of my hobbies is astronomy and I have found that after your eye dark
adapts you can see quite well under the starlight). This is a ratio of 90 million to 1! Even more
amazing is the fact that the eye can make the bulk of this adjustment in a fraction of a second. The
rest happens in about 20 minutes.

Having brought this to light, you can understand how it is easy to come to the conclusion that an
unknowingly unsuitable light source would actually seem bright enough to grow plants under by
looking at it.

Having brought this to light, you can understand how it is easy to come to the conclusion that an
unknowingly unsuitable light source would actually seem bright enough to grow plants under by
looking at it.

Lighting Systems

Now we will review the major lighting systems, their efficiency, and examine how they perform in a
horticultural situation. If, per chance this discussion gets too technical or boring you can skip to the
end of this segment and look at the overall comparison chart to get a general idea of how different
lighting systems perform.

Basis for Calculations:In all of the following examples we are going to assume that the efficiency of
the lighting system is 75%. In other words, only 75% of the light created by the bulb is reflected onto
our example garden. Furthermore, we are going to greatly simplify things by assuming that all of
the light aimed at our target area actually hits the area - there is no "spillage" so to speak. In practice
results will be much different - typically much lower than the stated figures. The idea of this
presentation is to communicate the practicality of different lighting systems by placing them on
common ground (which really doesn't exist) and comparing them to one another.

Incandescent: Incandescent lighting is your common everyday household light bulb. Their efficiency
is in the range of 4 lumens per watt. This means that a 100 watt bulb will generate 400 lumens -
TOTAL. (Here's the big leap) Now, if we COULD reflect all of that 400 lumens onto 1 square foot we
would get a light intensity of 400 foot candles. It is really not practical that we could design any
reflector system that is 100% efficient, so for the purposes of our discussions we will assume 75%
reflectance for all of our lighting systems. If we account for the loss in reflectance, we now get 300
foot candles from an incandescent bulb focused on one square foot.
Lets step back here and do a comparison.... 300 F.C. Compared to 10,000? Wow! we aren't even close
to daylight.
If we used one 100 watt bulb over a 4 foot by 4 foot garden the light intensity would be 18.75 F.C.,
Which is totally useless. If we wanted to shoot for 500 F.C. for growing low light plants, we would
need 26 - 100 watt bulbs. If we wanted to shoot for 1000 F.C. we would need 53 - 100 watt bulbs
over our garden. Aside from the electrical nightmare, we have succeeded in creating an easy-bakeoven
instead of an indoor garden. I hope that you see that incandescent light bulbs are truly
impractical for horticultural purposes.

Quartz Halogen: Halogens do a lot better at and efficiency of about 20 lumens per watt. Halogens
are available in 1000 watt bulbs and since we are trying for as much light as possible, we'll use this for
our example. A 1000 watt bulb producing 20 lumens per watt give us 20,000 lumens of total light
energy. Our hypothetical light fixture can only reflect 75% of this, so we now have only 15,000
lumens to work with. Our sample garden, 4 foot by 4 foot, has 16 square feet. When we shine our
15,000 lumens onto 16 square feet of growing area we get a light intensity of 937 foot candles. No
we're getting into a useable range but, there is one major drawback to halogens.....HEAT. Halogens
produce a disproportionate amount of heat in comparison to their light output. Let's look for
something better.

Fluorescent: Since we are trying to be educated gardeners, we will have sought out the extra high
output tubes for our garden. These Fluorescent tube generate 2750 lumens per 40 watt tube. That's
68 lumens per watt - now we are getting somewhere. Let's use enough fixtures to cover our 4x4
garden. The fixtures are 4 feet long by six inches wide. This allows us to cram 8 fixtures over our
garden - using a total of 640 watts. Each fixture hold 2 tubes, so we have a total of 16 tubes
generating 2750 lumens each - that's a total of 44,000 lumens. Subtracting for the loss due to
reflectance, we now have 33,000 lumens to cover our garden with. 33,000 divided by 16 square feet
equals 2062 foot candles of light intensity, ASSUMING the lights are right on top of the plants. When
you raise the lights to accommodate for the plants the light intensity drops rapidly. When you double
the distance, you cut the light intensity by four times - OUCH. Using an array of 16 - 40 watt tubes
you can expect to achieve about 500 foot candles at a distance of 12 inches. With this setup we can
grow low to medium light plants without burning them.

Metal Halide:This is what we have been looking for. Metal halide
lights have an efficiency range of 80 - 120 lumens per watt. This
let's us use a lower input wattage, generates more light and less
heat than all of the previous systems. The following table shows the
different wattage bulbs, their efficiency, total light output, and the
light intensity over a 4 foot x 4 foot garden.

Many people choke over the initial cost of a High Intensity Discharge fixture, but in the long run they
are much cheaper. For the same amount of light output M.H. uses 2-20 times less power than other
light sources.

Sodium Vapor: The king of efficiency! Sodium vapor lights output from 90-150 lumens per watt.
Sodium bulbs put out more light than metal halides but the spectrum is severely shifted towards the
red end of the spectrum. The effects of the reddish light are supposed to produce more flowering and
fruiting than more balanced lights.

Lets establish a reference point to work from, examine several types of lighting and put this
information to practical use.

Reference point: For most of the daylight hours, the outside daylight peak is centered on 5500
degrees Kelvin (refer to the above chart).

Metal Halide: These lights emit a light on the bluish side of the spectrum. They are considered a
grow light and it is considered that they produce a more stalky vegetative type of growth in plants.
These lights are commonly used throughout all phases of plant growth and produce excellent results.
Agro Sun Halide: Agro Sun is a hybrid halide bulb that generates extra red light for flower and fruit
production. This is considered to be the best choice for artificial lighting of plants.
Sodium Vapor: Sodium vapor lighting is way down in the red. There is some indication as well as a
lot of marketing hype that the spectrum produced by these lights promote flowering. Personally, I'd
like to see a scientific study to verify this.
The bottom line on spectrum: Spectrum is secondary to the over all intensity. Remember, in any
artificial lighting situation, we are able to provide only a fraction of natural lighting. Therefore, it is
more important to provide intensity than any other lighting factor. For example if you have to choose
between a 70 watt sodium vapor and a 400 watt metal halide the only choice is the 400 watt system.
The over all performance will be much greater, even if you favor a certain spectrum.

 

[Boss]

Re: Question about Veg period???

I say 75 because that's the long end strains. 60 is common, and thats 6 harvests. Since the plants are on a 21 day before harvest germination, that takes off another month, and you get the 7th.

Here is your scrog on 12/12.

 

[Boss]

Re: Question about Veg period???

No worries Joe, I am dying to get re-set up. Cees has this shit down to a science, and that's no exaggeration

The way I understand this, they will plant say 20 seeds per square meter, and pluck the males at 20-25 days (they are already in flower). Then the screen is placed and all you do is set them through it, and you only need about 6" if not less. (that's why I cut the bottom node off, it's about the perfect scrog height for these grows. I have a screen by the way, I just didn't put it up with my last grow because it was not gonna finish anyway. I agree about the light hitting the floor.

Cees breeds seeds, and has actually bred some of the best strains in the world. So when he needs a solid pheno, he just opens the drawer

For the time frame. I am talking 60-75 days total, start to finish. Normally you veg for a month or so, then flower for 60-80 days. So it's an extra month.

This SCROG will not work the same as a 12/12 7 harvest system, because you cannot just drop in the new females you have germinated. But if you remove the screen, and place them in 3 gallon pots real tight, you just rotate them out as you harvest and in come the new seedlings 21 days before the harvest. Now you have a harvest every 1 1/2 months, give or take a few days.

This is a perfect way to grow for people with short, small areas, and only one room to grow (like me in this house). But if you have the space and lights, there is no reason not to veg them out longer and let them grow BIG.

I think the boys at No Mercy Supply are doing all this research to maximize yields without vegging. They have already made statments saying in effect "The Vegitative stage is not required."

 

[old_skool]

Re: Question about Veg period???

About the flo's n cfls for vegging. Most use them for the low heat and they are easier on the young plants. I use them and have for years but they are not totally needed but come in handy when you want a separate veg chamber to get plants ready for the next grow

There was no time difference with the cfls. They may even finish faster. But like MH, finishing a week earlier with 30-50% less yield is hardly a trade off

Right, that's what I was thinking, since there is no difference and you have access to an HPS system why use the CFL's for the veg period???

For the time frame. I am talking 60-75 days total, start to finish. Normally you veg for a month or so, then flower for 60-80 days. So it's an extra month.

This is a perfect way to grow for people with short, small areas, and only one room to grow (like me in this house). But if you have the space and lights, there is no reason not to veg them out longer and let them grow BIG.

I think the boys at No Mercy Supply are doing all this research to maximize yields without vegging. They have already made statements saying in effect "The Vegetative stage is not required."

Boss,
As of yesterday 4-14 the 5 plants I am growing has an overall average of 34.4" would you want anything bigger than that for an indoor grow?? I mean since Cees and Atmosphere seem to concur about "the plant getting over 40 inches tall are not suited for indoor growing because the light will never penetrate that far" unless of course they are doing a SCROG.

So, the question still is:
I am trying to understand why someone with access to an HPS system would not use it 12/12 right from seed since the grow height, root system and end product return reaches the same capacity as if you use fluros in a veg period first and then switch to 12/12. If you have access to a HPS system and it can be used for the entire grow, why use fluros??

Thanks Brothers

Old Skool

 

[Boss]

Re: Question about Veg period???

At No Mercy Supply, they germinate and place seedlings under flouro till they get about 1 1/2 " high, then move them to the flowering room. Seedlings don't need that intense hps in the beginning, so there is no need to use the electricity. I mean, why use 430w when you can use 100 watts in cfls or tubes.

If you are going from seed, there is no need for anything but the HPS. And with these new HPS lamps with 30% more blue spectrums, even in veg they are looking good.

Price used to be the main reason. If you wanted to veg, you needed 2 lamps, one for each room. At 300-500 a pop, HPS was not cheap. But just in the last 6 months, prices have come down so far that I see no need to use anything else, unless price is still an issue. There is still a market for small space growers though. For 100 bucks you can setup a grow from start to finish with CFLs(Ventilation and all), the cost for an hps setup will still cost you at least double that.

An hps user would be hard pressed to give you good reasons to run an hps system for a 2-3 plant grow in a closet that is 2x2x4. The ventalation to keep the temps down would cost more then 2 CFL setups. Seeing that the cost of a 250w hps is the same as a 400w, even lowering the wattage doesnt make much sence.

So in short, with the new HPS bulbs out there, and the cost coming down substantially, the switchables and CFL systems are finding a smaller niche out there. Had the situation been the same as it was 6 months ago, the argument for CFL's was much stronger.

To really answer your question, it's all about the room and the wattage. If you have 2 1k lights and a mover, there is no reason not to veg under CFL or MH to get the plants strong and bushy vs (tall and lanky under hps) before going to flowering under hps. The yields will be night and day. You will need at least 3 times the number of plants under 12/12 to get the yield you will get from plants vegged to 2'-2 1/2 feet. With strong lighting there is no need to worry about light penetration. But if wattage is lower, it's a different story.

There are so many grow situations out there, that not one setup meets the needs of everyone. HID lighting has come so far that it is meeting more and more of those grow needs then ever before.

 

[old_skool]

Re: Question about Veg period???

If you are going from seed, there is no need for anything but the HPS. And with these new HPS lamps with 30% more blue spectrums, even in veg they are looking good.

Exactly my thoughts Boss, those babies are looking fantastic under 12/12 from seed.

Price used to be the main reason. If you wanted to veg, you needed 2 lamps, one for each room. At 300-500 a pop, HPS was not cheap. But just in the last 6 months, prices have come down so far that I see no need to use anything else, unless price is still an issue. There is still a market for small space growers though. For 100 bucks you can setup a grow from start to finish with CFLs(Ventilation and all), the cost for an hps setup will still cost you at least double that.

An hps user would be hard pressed to give you good reasons to run an hps system for a 2-3 plant grow in a closet that is 2x2x4. The ventilation to keep the temps down would cost more then 2 CFL setups. Seeing that the cost of a 250w hps is the same as a 400w, even lowering the wattage doesn't make much sense.

So in short, with the new HPS bulbs out there, and the cost coming down substantially, the switchable and CFL systems are finding a smaller niche out there. Had the situation been the same as it was 6 months ago, the argument for CFL's was much stronger.

I agree with you 100% on this Boss. So CFL was the king of the ring until the cost of HPS came down just 6 months ago, WOW. I mean I am glad that the cost came down but it confused the Hell out of me why someone would use both

To really answer your question, it's all about the room and the wattage. If you have 2 1k lights and a mover, there is no reason not to veg under CFL or MH to get the plants strong and bushy vs (tall and lanky under hps) before going to flowering under hps. The yields will be night and day. You will need at least 3 times the number of plants under 12/12 to get the yield you will get from plants vegged to 2'-2 1/2 feet. With strong lighting there is no need to worry about light penetration. But if wattage is lower, it's a different story.

Whoa hold on a minute Boss, are you saying I am losing yield by growing this way What kind of yield does vegging 30 days produce??? How much difference are we talking about? I mean dry yield just off of UNK 04 should be at least two O, but I am betting more. she shot up and wide during the stretch period I counted at least 8 cola's on her beside her main one and they have thick tight mass to them already at day 56.

<img src="https://www.420magazine.com/gallery/data/1024/side_shot.jpg" />

<img src="https://www.420magazine.com/gallery/data/1024/UNK_04_center.jpg" />

There are so many grow situations out there, that not one setup meets the needs of everyone. HID lighting has come so far that it is meeting more and more of those grow needs then ever before.

I agree, like I was saying for this specific scenario "I understand that some people use fluros because they don't have access or it is cost prohibitive."

 

[Boss]

Re: Question about Veg period???

You ran into one of the HPS downsides. Stretch. Had you used floro's in combination, or a hortilux bulb, you would not have seen so much stretch. The blue light tends to keep nodes shorter and buds tighter. The other control here is water and heat. Too much water will stretch them, and temps play a factor as well.

I think you will read somewhere over there, they talk about environmental control. It is essential to all forms of indoor grows. When you dial it in, your results will be fantastic. Honestly it looks like you are doing very well. In the next few weeks you will see them get plump and fat. Watch the watering and keep the nutes right on the edge of burn ;-) Keep your temps between 68 and 83 if you can. Cooler temps will slow up growth a bit, but IMO, the buds will be heavier.

 

[old_skool]

Re: Question about Veg period???

You ran into one of the HPS downsides. Stretch. Had you used floro's in combination, or a hortilux bulb, you would not have seen so much stretch. The blue light tends to keep nodes shorter and buds tighter. The other control here is water and heat. Too much water will stretch them, and temps play a factor as well.

I think you will read somewhere over there, they talk about environmental control. It is essential to all forms of indoor grows. When you dial it in, your results will be fantastic. Honestly it looks like you are doing very well. In the next few weeks you will see them get plump and fat.

Thank you for your compliment sir, you have been outstanding in your advise!

Watch the watering and keep the nutes right on the edge of burn ;-) Keep your temps between 68 and 83 if you can. Cooler temps will slow up growth a bit, but IMO, the buds will be heavier.

Hi Boss,
Yes sir I agree, thats why I decided to buy a moisture meter because there is no guessing of when they really need water.
As far as nutes go that is exactly where I have been keeping them, I see a slight touch of nute burn on the leaves with a magnifying glass.
The temps are right on the money as well between 67 and 81° F and now that they stopped stretching no adjustments have been needed.