Seedling deformed - Leaves look mottled & streaked - Really need advice please

[John1961]

I just started this indoor / basement grow inside of my DIY cabinet (you can see the cabinet here.).

The strain I'm growing is Blueberry Headband (feminized seed purchased from Attitude almost 2 years ago).

I planted the seed in a Solo cup on Dec 1st; she then broke soil on Dec 6th. I am using Happy Frog soil with perlite and dolomite lime added. Temperatures have been averaging mid 70's during the day and down into the upper 60's at night. My humidity is EXTREMELY low, averaging below 15% on a daily basis. I've started leaving water in my drain tray to help bump up the humidity a bit. Because of the low humidity, I've found my soil drying out very quickly so I've been watering with 6 to 8 ounces of distilled water ever other day. For my grow light, I'm using a LED 240-watt lamp suspended about 20 inches above the soil line.

Today is day 15 since breaking soil and as you can see by the pics below, things don't look quite right. The leaves look somewhat mottled and deformed. There also appears to be streaks of light green and dark green. Today was watering day so I added 2 drops of Cal/Mag to my 8 ounces of water. She has not received any other nutrients. She is still growing in the Solo cup though I noticed some roots coming from the bottom of the cup and I know transplanting is not too far off.

I realize that it's not uncommon for the first few sets of leaves to look deformed and that most plants usually correct themselves as they grow and mature. Does that look like the case here?

Is the extremely low humidity to blame for the strange appearance on the leaves? I did lightly "mist" the leaves with a spray bottle a few times during the past couple of weeks using distilled water, thinking it would help the plant deal with the low-humidity conditions. In fact, I have ONLY used distilled water from the beginning of this plant's life. Could the misting or the fact that I'm only using distilled water have damaged the leaves like this? I realize that distilled water has no nutrients at all in it, but I would have expected the soil to have more than enough nutrients at this early stage.

Could the intensity of the LED grow light be causing this issue? It is the only light the plant has seen since sprouting.

Do I just press on and see if the plant corrects itself? Or does this plant look too weak / weird / deformed to hope for anything from it?

This is my fifth grow so I'm not entirely stupid though I am still somewhat of a newbie. Please help.

 

[TheFertilizer]

re: Seedling deformed - Leaves look mottled & streaked - Really need advice please

Okay well short and sweet answer, you went from too dry to too much water. 15% is very low, and I have personal experience with that kind of humidity, as well as over-watering because things sure do dry up quick. You can still end up over-watering though and I'm like 90% sure that's what it is, especially as you describe leaving water in the bottom of the drain tray. Every time I've ever done that, I end up with over-watering issues. Your plant will recover, but give it more time without water, basically just before the leaves start to wilt.

You're right that it's too soon for nutrients as well, Happy Frog as well as the seed's own nutrients should have got it to the 3rd or 4th node of growth before needing food. It's not actually very hot soil, I don't remember what the NPK rating was but it's rather low, good for seedlings. But yeah, the panic probably made you think it was starving, been there. At least Cal-Mag doesn't have too much solids so you'll probably be all right, doesn't look nute burned. I'd cut it out from here though.

Also I'm not sure what pH level distilled water is at, but since you amended that Happy Frog with dolomite lime you're pretty much locked in at 7. But you probably knew that...

Don't mist, it's just too confusing to the plant right now. I would check the roots before transplanting, they could be coming out of the bottom because they're seeking water, it doesn't necessarily mean that the root ball is developed enough for transplant yet. Misting can hurt the leaves if the pH is too acidic as well.

I doubt that the intensity of the light is too much (light stress) but it may be too close and adding heat stress. If your hand starts to get warm feeling when right over the top of the plant, then it's probably too close. That radiant heat will build up in the leaves. I like to leave it until I can just barely feel a difference in temperature with my hand under the light, kind of like luke warm water versus moderately warm. The low humidity will compound that quickly, so even though the temperatures might seem like they're in the normal optimal range, with humidity that low the plant leaves are actually having a very hard time transpiring. The radiant heat level inside of the leaves will probably be a little bit higher than just the average atmospheric temperature too so keep that in mind.

This has actually been coming up a little bit lately, this thread is very informative...

How temperature and humidity relate

Check out the part from Graytail about VPD and the associated chart...

Basically you want to keep your temperature and humidity at a level so that they fall into that orange/white area on that chart. I am dealing with the same issue myself at the moment and am using a humidifier inside a 4x4 tent with the exhaust fan turned down all the way to low and it's still only getting it to 40%. What I am going to try is to let the temperatures get a little lower than the traditionally stated optimals, more like in the mid 60s. That way the VPD will be in a better range for that low of humidity.

 

[John1961]

re: Seedling deformed - Leaves look mottled & streaked - Really need advice please

Thanks, TheFertilizer, I appreciate your quick and thorough response.

Regarding the drain tray, the Solo cup sits above it on a grill. The grill allows the water to drip into the drain tray without needing to have the cup sit in the tray as well. So essentially, there is no water trying to soak back up into the Solo cup.

As mentioned, the low humidity really dries out the Solo cup fast. I last watered on Sunday and today the top two inches of the cup were about bone dry.

My plans are to probably water again on Thursday or Friday and this weekend I'll transplant her to a 4-gallon smart pot. I will not give her any nutes (or Cal/Mag) until I'm sure she's asking for some.

I just hate seeing the little one so distressed. I hope she is able to snap out of it, or I am able to figure out what I might be doing wrong so I don't do it again!

 

[John1961]

Well, here I am a few days later. It is now 20 days since she sprouted. The new growth coming in looks more 'normal'. I'm thinking of transplanting to a three gallon smart pot tomorrow. What do you folks think?

 

[EMahn]

How did the plant turn out? I have the exact same thing on a new seedling. Closest thing I could find was TMV (tobacco mosaic virus), which I really hope is not the case. Did the mottling continue or was it limited to the first leaves?

 

[John1961]

Actually, the issue seems to have resolved itself and the plant is now growing great.

In retrospect, I believe the issue might have been caused by 'misting' the plant (using distilled water). In my efforts to address the extremely-low humidity in my house (less than 15% typically), I was misting the young seedling every morning, thinking the moisture on the leaves would help. Perhaps I was misting too often or with too much water, but after I originally posted this thread, I stopped misting the plant and since then my "Blueberry Headband" has looked wonderful.

Here are pics taken at day 55 of veg (yesterday). I'm in the process of "manifolding" her.

 

[EMahn]

Thanks for responding. Yes, they look beautiful. I will hope for the same outcome.

For what it is worth, there are some similarities in my situation.

> I also noticed this happening right after I misted the seedling. I used soft tap water augmented with cal-mag. I had one plant that showed what appeared to be an iron deficiency. In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have misted.
> I am growing an auto (Blue amnesia XXL) (similar to yours, it also has Blueberry parental lineage)
> I am using LED lights

Given your info here, I'm sure #1 was a source, but perhaps the other two are contributing factors also. I use a humidifier in my tent and RH is 40-55, so I don't think low humidity was a factor for me.

 

[EMahn]

For what it's worth here are some pics in case it is helpful to someone:


I will post a picture later if it gets better (or worse)

 

[km278]

For what it's worth here are some pics in case it is helpful to someone

I will post a picture later if it gets better (or worse)

Did you ever figure out what this was? One of my plants is showing the exact same symptoms. Worried that it may be TMV.

 

[EMahn]

No, I didn't figure it out. Unlike John196, the leaves kept going with the mottling for several weeks, node after node. Eventually, the leaves turned normal, but it felt like it took forever.

I had 3 plants in a 3'x3' tent. Only one of them showed the odd issue. It never spread to the other two, and the weird plant seems ultimately pretty robust and healthy in its grow. The only other weirdness I see with this plant was: 1) As it reaches flowering maturity and the lower fan leaves start to yellow, the yellow leaves show brown spots on them. I could not see any spots at all while they were green, it only showed after they turned yellow. The other two plants turn uniformly yellow. And 2) That plant had a whole lot of pistils going on, more than its two sisters (I call it my Guy Fieri plant).

It kinda tweaked me out at first, but in the end, although inexplicable, it seemed to not cause huge issues.

Questions for you (km278):
> Did you do any misting on your plant?
> Are you using Cal-mag?
> What kind of lights are you using?
> What strain of plant is it?

I would be very curious to hear how it all turns out for you.

 

[km278]

Thanks for the reply. Glad to hear your plant turned out ok despite the weird mottling. My plant is a Blue Dream auto. I have another one growing that is completely normal.

I have not misted it at all.

I did pre-charge with about 2-3ml cal-mag since I am growing in coco. I am also watering with about half R/O water and half tap water.

Using a Mars Hydro 300W LED light.

Blue Dream auto.

 

[EMahn]

Thanks. No answers, but here are some commonalities with all of us:

1) All of our plants are descendants from Blueberry lineage.
2) All of us are using LED lights.

Here are some features that apply to two of us:
1) Two of us misted our plants
2) Two of us used cal-mag
3) Occurred in one plant but not others.

Weird thing. Please post updates as you find out more.

 

[daTenshi]

I have an auto Blackberry Kush (Blueberry descendant) which is doing the exact same thing. Never been sprayed or fed. Growth looks the same, it's now on her 3rd node and still no signs of normal growth.