Severe leaf edge curl

[jonathanfrost]

strain: white widow (supposedly) two clones less than two weeks old.
light: vented 1000w hps @ 4 feet
media: 5 gallons 80/20 coco/perlite
nutes: canna coco a&b, cannazym, rhyzotonic @ 2/3 strength 1 gallon hand watered when needed
pH: in 5.8/out 6.3
EC: in around 1.6/out around 1.4
media pH: 6.3 when moist and diluted 1:1.5 distilled water
media EC: 0.4 when moist and diluted 1:1.5 distilled water
air temp: 78 degrees F day/65 night
relative humidity: 45-50% (seems to fluctuate between this range hourly)

noticed leaf edge curl a few days ago. first on one plant now on the other. seems to be progressive. i know that pH out is high for coco. this pH in/out has been typical for everything i've ever grown in coco and have never had problems. also, does not show as pH problem. googled this and searched many forums. have seen answers from nute burn, too much light and high heat. i do not believe that any of these are my problem. looking for real solution from experienced grower. can't seem to find it. any ideas? thanks in advance.

 

[bucktoothal]

hello
looks like you have a Mg def. also they are only around 2 weeks old you also might have nute burned them. flush your soil, cut back on your nutes to around 1/4 strength for the first month.add some epson salt

 

[jonathanfrost]

hello
looks like you have a Mg def. also they are only around 2 weeks old you also might have nute burned them. flush your soil, cut back on your nutes to around 1/4 strength for the first month.add some epson salt

i should've noted that i started nutes after a week at 1/3 strength and watered yesterday (14 days since rooted) for the first time at 2/3 strength. canna nutes run very light. this does not look like any nute burn i've ever seen. maybe cal mag, but i doubt it. i may up the nutes, but certainly not flush and run at 1/4 strength. i'd have 5 gallons of coco/perlite and a pile of dust in a month.

any one else? any one who has seen this before?

 

[SmokzAlot]

This indicates to me an environmental issue. Either temp, humidity, or ventilation. Get all in check and monitor the swings. It appears to be only on the top of the plant. Is that true? How close to the light is it?

 

[jonathanfrost]

This indicates to me an environmental issue. Either temp, humidity, or ventilation. Get all in check and monitor the swings. It appears to be only on the top of the plant. Is that true? How close to the light is it?

it is closer to the top on the milder case. on the more severe case it is all over the plant. light is 4 feet away. i figured it'd be a humidity issue. that's what it looks like, buuut my humidity is 45-50% 24/7 and i've never seen any humidity issue produce something this extreme. the temp is 78 degrees F light on and 65 at night. all of these conditions are ideal. ventilation is no problem at all. i have a box fan blowing light breeze on all plants. they lightly "dance" constantly. i have a blower blowing circulating air through reflector. i should not that i have other plants in this room that are much large and had no problem growing up.

today i noticed that the newly developed leaves are exhibiting true signs of MG deficiency. i don't see anything that would be causing lockout (EC/pH are good and no signs of nute burn), so i am going to up the nutes to full strength on the next watering and maybe add a few drops of superthrive. i'm also going to true to pump up humidity to 55%

once again, any one out there who has actually seen this and corrected it?

 

[SmokzAlot]

As with most issues, we are dealing with your unique set of circumstances. Don't look at web descriptions as being all defining. Way to many variables to influence things. A root moisture issue as an example can cause such transpiration issues are well. Closely review all data you have and verify it. Not all RH meters are =. What is happening at night, how do they look when lights come on? If you see what you believe to be a mag deficiency then you can treat immediately with a foliar of epsom. What is your source water?

A different angle in the photo may help also show more of the praying leaf so typical of a Mag def. We can only work with what you provide us to work with. You are at the best vantage point. Rusty spots will be the next symptom if so.

EDIT: After a reread of thread, I see that you stated distilled water in the beginning. What are you doing to replace the minerals that you are lacking in the water. That being mostly cal/mag? Coco as a medium is a pig for cal/mag and will rear its ugly head quickly if not supplemented via the water source or an additive. I grow in Coco and use Cal/Mag with RO water every watering, along with my nutes.

 

[jonathanfrost]

As with most issues, we are dealing with your unique set of circumstances. Don't look at web descriptions as being all defining. Way to many variables to influence things. A root moisture issue as an example can cause such transpiration issues are well. Closely review all data you have and verify it. Not all RH meters are =. What is happening at night, how do they look when lights come on? If you see what you believe to be a mag deficiency then you can treat immediately with a foliar of epsom. What is your source water?

A different angle in the photo may help also show more of the praying leaf so typical of a Mag def. We can only work with what you provide us to work with. You are at the best vantage point. Rusty spots will be the next symptom if so.

EDIT: After a reread of thread, I see that you stated distilled water in the beginning. What are you doing to replace the minerals that you are lacking in the water. That being mostly cal/mag? Coco as a medium is a pig for cal/mag and will rear its ugly head quickly if not supplemented via the water source or an additive. I grow in Coco and use Cal/Mag with RO water every watering, along with my nutes.

thanks for the reply.

if you read my synopsis carefully you'll see that i state i test my coco pH/EC with a solution of 1:1.5 coco:distilled water. this is in accordance with canna's method described on their website. i am watering with standard tap water (i left this out, but reported a few posts down). i understand that not all hygrometers are equal. the percent error on my meter is +/- 5%. i regard this as negligible and fairly accurate for its use and application. the only other option would be to get a laboratory hygrometer with a much more accurate and precise indication (too expensive and unnecessary) or get several hygrometers and average them (this would be a ridiculous waste of time). it is obvious that nute deficiency charts/pics are not set in stone, but it is a baseline and the best one can do w/o experience. i have however experienced cal/mg deficiencies before and this is almost spot on with what i have experienced excluding the extreme leaf edge curl (i have never seen this before).

i believe that i have provided more than adequate data (i don't know what else to provide. my address?) and i have not received an answer from any one who has seen this before and found a solution to it. after reviewing forum after forum i have read a variety of causes and solutions which are inconsistent with my situation. light stress, nute burn, heat stress and "it's perfectly normal" are the majority of answers, but none of those experiencing the problem later report what they did to solve the problem. i do not feel it is perfectly normal. the plants are stressed. that is obvious. why? i don't know. it is my hope that what i am interpreting as a Mg deficiency is spot on. i also noticed that a few leaves are showing light dryness at their tips. this is an early indication of Ca deficiency (in my experience). i understand that this can also be interpreted as early nute burn, but i have never burned a plant with a 2/3 dose of canna (or any canna application for that matter) regardless of how old. considering cal/mg problems often go hand in hand this makes sense. i will triple check my pH to 5.8 and water with full dose of nutes tomorrow.

i will report my findings if i solve this problem. i am clearly in the dark in this situation without a lifeline. if some one out there who has experienced this and found a solution to it, i would greatly appreciate his/her input. thanks.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

I would of said heat stress due to close proximity of lights.

How close are your lights and what wattgae are they ?

 

[jonathanfrost]

I would of said heat stress due to close proximity of lights.

How close are your lights and what wattgae are they ?

1000w hps at 4 feet.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

1000w hps at 4 feet.

Clearly not heat stress & i believe you mention you had an air cooled hood also... lights are miles away tho & can be moved much closer for better results.

I do believe canna do sell 1 litre bottles of Mg nutrients & even a trace micro nutrient mix also... epsom salts are a tad cheaper which can be picked up from local chemist or supermarket.

If you firmly believe Mg def is occuring...

Personnal i can not tell jack shit what def it is as the pic's where taken under the hps bulb making colours look some what different than normal.

 

[jonathanfrost]

i have some general organics CaMg. i gave them a full dose of canna and 1/2 dose of the GO today. i'll let you know what happens over the next couple days. despite this apparent stress, the plants ARE doing fine. they are now just over 2 weeks old and have easily quintupled in size. i topped them tuesday and the nodes have exploded with growth.

i took some new pics this morning. here they are:

 

[HeartWW]

When I had this same issue. I re-Ph'd found that to be ok. I foliar sprayed PH'd 6.3 water with Epsom Salts and She came around in a couple days. I know how you feel because if this gets much worse you will lose some leaves as I did. I'm simply stating what worked for me growing Widow with the same looking leaves. For some reason it looks like she's trying to get rid of some water but with what you stated, I'ts probably not it. I know the frustration when you are doing everything mostly right and have an issue that makes no sense. Good Luck on the Widow's. When they flower out, You will reap the benifit of very potent smoke..

 

[jonathanfrost]

ok. i cannot say conclusively, but i believe this is a Ca/Mg deficiency. I watered yesterday morning with a full dose of canna and a half dose of general organics CaMg. 34 hours later the plants have produced a completely new set of leaves which bear absolutely no sign of the problems. the older leaves still have the leaf curl, but look healthy in color and texture. the plants are thriving. at just 16 days since being root, they're already 18 inches tall and branching excellently. i will report back probably monday with a final determination.

 

[jonathanfrost]

ok. i'm not sure what it causing the leaf curl. the new sets of leaves are curling as well, but very slight. i can't say it's really a problem as the plants are growing at a normal rate. i am going to up the EC to 1.9 on the watering.

 

[xtrchessreal]

Did you ever solve this issue? if so how? Please I am having same issue, Though I am in a Happy Frog potting mix straight from the bag in 3 gal, were transplanted from 6" pots in Fox Farm Ocean Forest a week ago and started showing these signs after two days. I do not use any nutes, tap water that has been sitting for days and agitated to get chlorimine etc out. What does transplant shock look like? I looked everywhere for pics of that and can't find any. I have made sure the water PH is 6.7 the soil PH is 6.7, the humidity is 45% I use 4 @ 100 watt equiv CFLs at 5000 Kelvin. I have so far added extra humidity, turned a light off, and now have the fan off as well yet still appears to be cascading. My pics look the same as the later posted pics from "jonathanfrost" so no need to provide, I do not know the strain, was told Acapulco Gold which I haven't heard since the seventies, six plants were given to me at 1 week and are now at 5 weeks, 12" to 20" tall and the light is 12" away from the tallest. I may try the Epsom thing as it seems it was the only thing not tried by "jonathanfrost" Can Ca/Mg def be fixed with Molasses? The thing that is baffling me is this is new soil so I shouldn't need to be adding anything for two to three months. I keep telling myself it will go away on its own, the plants appear to be thriving in growth but I worry about these curled leaves. I am about ready to throw up my hands and walk away... I hope there is an answer. Unlike "jonathanfrost" I am doing my second grow but I read and research before taking action, less is more, has always been my motto.

If anyone has some things to add for me I would appreciate it, Thank you