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Should I do a pH down drip?

Redoctober

New Member
So this being my first aeroponic experience, I'm not sure if this is a phenomenon that all hydro/aero growers experience, but my pH rises roughly .05-.1 per hour. I would assume that the plants are secreting metabolites or waste into the water as it's being sprayed over the roots and this is causing the constant rise in pH.

A few questions:

1. is this normal?

2. Will it ever taper off, or will this continue for the entire duration of the grow?

3. if this will continue, is it prudent to set up some kind of pH down drip system to maintain the pH at 5.6-5.8?

I find myself having to adjust the pH manually every few hours anyway so I was wondering what hydro/aero growers normally do about this?
 

SteveHman

Member of the Month: Aug 2011 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2011
Red,
Will need a bunch more information before anyone gives you help. My pH moves about 1/2 a point a day. Do some reading on the FAQ forums, also check out the "how to ask for help" thread. You need to provide a bunch of information to help someone diagnose your issue. But basically, if you're having to adjust your pH that frequently, then you have a major issue somewhere.
 

PetFlora

New Member
You must be recirculating your nutes and/or using 'organic' nutes. Both are bad ideas for hydro.

Are you using a separate rez or RDWC? If you have a separate rez it is easy to stop recirculating the runoff and check both ppms and pH. You will be shocked.

If you are recirculating, think about it, something in the runoff is causing your pH to rise pretty fast, and that ain't good.

hth
 

SteveHman

Member of the Month: Aug 2011 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2011
You must be recirculating your nutes and/or using 'organic' nutes. Both are bad ideas for hydro.

Are you using a separate rez or RDWC? If you have a separate rez it is easy to stop recirculating the runoff and check both ppms and pH. You will be shocked.

If you are recirculating, think about it, something in the runoff is causing your pH to rise pretty fast, and that ain't good.

hth

recirculating nutes is not a bad idea, I think my current grow and last grow are proof. Also if it was a bad concept then all of the companies selling RDWC, Undercurrent etc.. would not be selling systems and you would not see any successful grow journals using it.

Red,
Please read the thread on how to request assistance. Without knowing the type of system, the media, the nutes, water source. lighting etc.... you won't get an informed answer. There are myriad issues that can be causing your pH swing and I can say with almost 100% certainty that if you have a recirc going that it IS NOT the problem.
 

PetFlora

New Member
Several years ago, as a totally ignorant noob, I lost 2 grows do to RDWC. When did the shit hit fan? Roughly 3rd week of flower. Why flower nutes are high in P-K, but when too high they can burn leaves, roots and lock out other important nutrients and micronutrients.



The only people who should recirculate nutes are noobs (as I was) who are blind followers that are too anxious to start growing (as I was) instead of taking time to investigate and learn what makes sense and what doesn't.

Think about it: You start out feeding with a complete nutrient, as plants do not use all the nutrients from each feeding, rdwc recirculates an incomplete nutrient and waste products. How long before the balance is so far out of whack that your roots and plants get sick? WOW

I now have several complete journals here and on other sites using a 21st Century of F & D (also under TAG 2.0) using D2W, but D2W is only one important method to implement if you want the healthiest plants giving you the highest yield.

hth
 

SteveHman

Member of the Month: Aug 2011 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2011
Several years ago, as a totally ignorant noob, I lost 2 grows do to RDWC. When did the shit hit fan? Roughly 3rd week of flower. Why flower nutes are high in P-K, but when too high they can burn leaves, roots and lock out other important nutrients and micronutrients.



The only people who should recirculate nutes are noobs (as I was) who are blind followers that are too anxious to start growing (as I was) instead of taking time to investigate and learn what makes sense and what doesn't.

Think about it: You start out feeding with a complete nutrient, as plants do not use all the nutrients from each feeding, rdwc recirculates an incomplete nutrient and waste products. How long before the balance is so far out of whack that your roots and plants get sick? WOW

I now have several complete journals here and on other sites using a 21st Century of F & D (also under TAG 2.0) using D2W, but D2W is only one important method to implement if you want the healthiest plants giving you the highest yield.

hth
I take issue with your inference that I am an ignorant noob. You obviously have drank your own kool aid and believe that your is the only way to grow. Although you have had major issues with your HPA (quasi) and I have completed one grow and am in week 5 of bloom on my second while you're still getting yours "tweaked" to work just right.

A hydroponics system is very similar to an aquarium (I have 20+ years of salt water experience). If you think that cannabis plants are more delicate than corals and salt water invertebrates you are high. Drain to waste is just that, wasting your money.

Red, do you own research and find a system that works for you, there are dozens of grow methods out there and I would follow a few to see which is best for you. Don't take advice from someone who recently espoused (with somewhat authority on the subject) that plants defecate through their roots. Do you own research and make your own well informed decision.
 

PrairiePoet

Active Member
You must be recirculating your nutes and/or using 'organic' nutes. Both are bad ideas for hydro.

Really?? Organic Nutes in Hydro are BAD??? and Recirculating nutes is BAD also? Hmmmmmm....

Besides your own personal experience can you point to other sources that back your claim? Can you explain why DWC works without Drain to Waste?

You seem like a knowledgeable person, and are very helpful with others on the forum. But I'm not sure about this comment.

Prairie
 

PetFlora

New Member
That mj survives DWC is a testament to mj not DWC. Should you want to grow the healthiest plants (assuming you bring proper knowledge to the grow- which took me several grows as I took 10 year old thread from IC and adapted it to new equipment and my own noob learning curve.) you have no choice but to stop using DWC.

Below is a pic of my AERO roots. Note they look nothing like slimy spaghetti noodles, which is indicative of ALL DWC grows. Instead they have literally thousands of root hairs to consume the nutes, which are sprayed into the pod under high pressure, using extremely short feed cycles- this most efficient feeding method is used by NASA.

Root hairs will never grow when soaking in nutes. I sometimes see a few of them above the water line in DWC, but not enough to be meaningful.

I have done my part, leading you to water, whether you drink or not is up to you, but now you can make a more educated choice. Even here my feeding cycle was too long, as the atomized mist turned into much larger droplets that can be seen clinging to the roots. These are imossible for the microbes living on the roots to consume.

20100121_IMG_99_1.JPG
 

willoby

New Member
recirculating nutes is not a bad idea, I think my current grow and last grow are proof. Also if it was a bad concept then all of the companies selling RDWC, Undercurrent etc.. would not be selling systems and you would not see any successful grow journals using it.

Red,
Please read the thread on how to request assistance. Without knowing the type of system, the media, the nutes, water source. lighting etc.... you won't get an informed answer. There are myriad issues that can be causing your pH swing and I can say with almost 100% certainty that if you have a recirc going that it IS NOT the problem.

I was thinking the same...I currently have a RDWC and it is my first really serious grow, very first indoor and I can say that I have had no issues really(knock on wood) and my PH stays around 5.9-6.2 always. It has never regulated that often. If it does change it goes down I realized and I need to use PH up about every other day...Anyhow, good luck on your grow and I how you find you answer soon, I know it is probably a little frustrating...:goodluck::goodluck:
 

SteveHman

Member of the Month: Aug 2011 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2011

Below is a pic of my AERO roots. Note they look nothing like slimy spaghetti noodles, which is indicative of ALL DWC grows. Instead they have literally thousands of root hairs to consume the nutes, which are sprayed into the pod under high pressure, using extremely short feed cycles- this most efficient feeding method is used by NASA.

Root hairs will never grow when soaking in nutes. I sometimes see a few of them above the water line in DWC, but not enough to be meaningful.

20100121_IMG_99_1.JPG

Really ALL DWC grows have slimy spaghetti roots? You are so deluded with your own rhetoric. I have seen several (in fact most) DWC grows with healthy white roots and no slime. Before you make categorical statements you should engage your brain first and then your mouth (or in this case your fingers).

Also in the case of NASA, weight is a huge issue when transporting into space, HPA is the best method for them, and they have (or used to have) an enormous budget for the research and equipment.

Until you win the nug or plant of the month with your cobbled together quasi HPA system I suggest you quit bashing every other system out there.

Led us to the water. More like Jim Jones leading us to the kool aide and urging us to take a sip. With the time and money you have, or will, invest in trying to get your system figured out, several DWC, Ebb and Flow and NFT grows will start and finish.

My plants are doing fine, are quite healthy and happy and show no signs of being underfed through "spaghetti roots".

Ignorance compounded by arrogance and the steadfast hold of your beliefs are very frustrating. Tell me again how plants defecate through their roots (if you could cite your academic research references that will lend some credence to your claim).
 

PrairiePoet

Active Member
PrariePoet: My point is DWC is extremely flawed. D2W does not work with DWC.

If you are going to respond, would you mind responding with an answer to my questions?

I'll post them again:

1. Can you point to any other sources that backs your claims that DWC is flawed?

2. You stated that recirculating in DWC was a bad ideal of hydro. If you are not recirculating, then I assumed you would be direct to waste (D2W). Now you say D2W does not work. So would please explain the original comment?

I'm also going to chime in on your comments:
you have no choice but to stop using DWC.
and
I have done my part, leading you to water, whether you drink or not is up to you

Both of these comments are fairly arrogant. Even if that speaker is correct in what they say, it
does not promote others to listen. If you would tone the arrogance down, I think you will find a more receptive audience.

Otherwise, have a good day brother,

Prairie
 

Redoctober

New Member
Sorry for my absence everyone. And to stevehman, you are right, I didn't give any pertinent info when I posted my question. Sorry about that.

I started my clones in an ez cloner using nothing but clonex solution. The plants did grow decently well in there, but remained in it several weeks too long due to circumstances beyond my control. They were then transplanted into my aero unit where they recovered nicely. I am running an aero pipedream system in 6" pvc pipe. My feed time is 1min on, 4min off. I do not do D2W. My nutrients are GH flora series mixed in a 2-3-1 micro:grow:bloom ratio. I go about 350-400ppm with it in the rez. I try to keep the pH b/w 5.6-5.9 if possible. It moves up so quickly. I am using 2x 180W LED lights from GLH. I may be forced to flower with them as well because I wasn't able to obtain the HID that I thought I was going to get. I realize that with 360W of LED, I won't end up with much, but these are the breaks. Anyway, back to the issue. I have noticed that the roots do have a brownish color. It's not crazy brown, but I definitely think that this violent pH swing is probably due to an infection of some kind. Possibly pythium. For a few weeks I thought it was the Micro that was staining them brown, but now I'm not sure this is the case. The pH swings have only gotten worse, but it was this way since the ez cloner. I'm going to try some rez clear, or a rez clear substitute. I don't have access to food grade H2O2 at the moment.
 

PrairiePoet

Active Member
Sorry for my absence everyone. And to stevehman, you are right, I didn't give any pertinent info when I posted my question. Sorry about that.

I started my clones in an ez cloner using nothing but clonex solution. The plants did grow decently well in there, but remained in it several weeks too long due to circumstances beyond my control. They were then transplanted into my aero unit where they recovered nicely. I am running an aero pipedream system in 6" pvc pipe. My feed time is 1min on, 4min off. I do not do D2W. My nutrients are GH flora series mixed in a 2-3-1 micro:grow:bloom ratio. I go about 350-400ppm with it in the rez. I try to keep the pH b/w 5.6-5.9 if possible. It moves up so quickly. I am using 2x 180W LED lights from GLH. I may be forced to flower with them as well because I wasn't able to obtain the HID that I thought I was going to get. I realize that with 360W of LED, I won't end up with much, but these are the breaks. Anyway, back to the issue. I have noticed that the roots do have a brownish color. It's not crazy brown, but I definitely think that this violent pH swing is probably due to an infection of some kind. Possibly pythium. For a few weeks I thought it was the Micro that was staining them brown, but now I'm not sure this is the case. The pH swings have only gotten worse, but it was this way since the ez cloner. I'm going to try some rez clear, or a rez clear substitute. I don't have access to food grade H2O2 at the moment.

Root rot / pythium will show up when you have large pH swings. The plant gets stressed and is then open to infection. sort of like in the winter time, we need vitamin C to help keep our body healthy, so we don't catch colds.

One thing I didn't see mentioned was the res temp. This needs to be kept below 70 to keep root rot out. If you have it already, lowering the temp will help keep it under control until you harvest.

I'm sure you know that pH will change over time. And that some first time growers (glancing in mirror) will worry about it too much and end up causing more problems trying to control it. I think I read some where on here someone mentioned that if you have to adjust the pH in a res more than three to four times with in a couple of hours, you should dump the res and start over.

Also, sorry about taking over your post with all the disagreements with Pet.

Prairie
 

SteveHman

Member of the Month: Aug 2011 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2011
Red,
Prairie is on the money with res temps, keep them low and constant. If you don't have a chiller, that should be your next purchase.

Are you using rockwool or hydroton or another media in your system? A complete res change and flush may be in order, and if you aren't using a zyme product you may want to add some in.

Don't worry about the GLH 180s, they will flower just fine with them and you should still get decent results.

And to echo what Prairie said, sorry for the threadjack with the pet issue, I don't even pay attention to anything that he says, so far it's all been wrong.

Best of luck on your grow,
Steve
 

Redoctober

New Member
thanks steve and prairie!
Yes you guys are right, I need a chiller. Because I'm using LED's my room temps stay low (70-72) so my rez is usually around the same, but ideally it should be around 67-68. I do the very low tek frozen poland spring bottle method, but it's not terribly effective.

I think I'm gonna switch to tap water for the next week instead of RO. I have pretty good water and I'm thinking that it might contain a little chlorine and some macro nutrients that might help stabilize my ph a bit. I've been experimenting with some home made clear rez as well.

steve, I did manage to procure another 400W HPS so I'll be kicking into flower as soon as I get my filter and fan set up. I'll be using my two 180W LED's over the left side of my aero unit, and the 400W HPS over the right side. The two lights will mix in the middle but it'll be an interesting experiment.
 

Mr. Krip

Grow Journalist
420 Staff
thanks steve and prairie!
Yes you guys are right, I need a chiller. Because I'm using LED's my room temps stay low (70-72) so my rez is usually around the same, but ideally it should be around 67-68. I do the very low tek frozen poland spring bottle method, but it's not terribly effective.

I think I'm gonna switch to tap water for the next week instead of RO. I have pretty good water and I'm thinking that it might contain a little chlorine and some macro nutrients that might help stabilize my ph a bit. I've been experimenting with some home made clear rez as well.

steve, I did manage to procure another 400W HPS so I'll be kicking into flower as soon as I get my filter and fan set up. I'll be using my two 180W LED's over the left side of my aero unit, and the 400W HPS over the right side. The two lights will mix in the middle but it'll be an interesting experiment.

Red, I would not run out and invest in a chiller just yet. Steve asked a great question about your growing media. If you're using hydroton or rockwool and didn't soak them REAL good first, they can cause PH to rise.

IMHO, Your res temps aren't that high that they should be causing problems if the res is cleaned and changed regularly, which should be part of your routine.

Also, everyone has their own recipes that work for them, but I've become a big fan of adding some H2O2 to my res water the night before I add nutes and change res's.

And, I've become an even bigger fan of Dutch Master's Gold Zone which is a root zone optimizer and I've seen it work wonders on roots that had been ravaged by pythium. I use it also on every res change to maintain healthy roots from seedling to flower.

:goodluck:
 

chemelion7311

New Member
So this being my first aeroponic experience, I'm not sure if this is a phenomenon that all hydro/aero growers experience, but my pH rises roughly .05-.1 per hour. I would assume that the plants are secreting metabolites or waste into the water as it's being sprayed over the roots and this is causing the constant rise in pH.

A few questions:

1. is this normal?

2. Will it ever taper off, or will this continue for the entire duration of the grow?

3. if this will continue, is it prudent to set up some kind of pH down drip system to maintain the pH at 5.6-5.8?

I find myself having to adjust the pH manually every few hours anyway so I was wondering what hydro/aero growers normally do about this?

i have a2 5 gal bucket drip using city water and x nutrients with a 400 w hood and ballis growing good but leaves are yellowing and tearing my PH goes back from 5.0 to 8.0 or higher in seconds idk please help using 2.5 gal, ring drip, and air stone
 

SteveHman

Member of the Month: Aug 2011 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2011
i have a2 5 gal bucket drip using city water and x nutrients with a 400 w hood and ballis growing good but leaves are yellowing and tearing my PH goes back from 5.0 to 8.0 or higher in seconds idk please help using 2.5 gal, ring drip, and air stone

How are you testing your pH? A change that large in seconds is a sign that something is terribly amiss. I suspect your meter needs to be calibrated/replaced. If you are using the test strips or drops that is of a bigger concern since it shouldn't have a huge swing "in seconds".
 
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