SIP Club - Getting Hydro/Coco Results In A Soil Based Medium

[ReservoirDog]

If I use plastic I'd possibly have to extend it to go over the pot rim

This is a neccesity not only for rain/leech issue, a weird effect happens that the edge of the soil where it meets the vertical pot wall starts to dry and separate because due to plastic just laying on top its the only part exposed to air. That's the last place you want spot-drying, that's supposed to be moister than many other places due to condensation against the vert. pot wall.

I have often seen worms quite happily living underneath some plastic

Worms love life under some high breathable mulch and the shower cap style over top. Thety vacation up there, no shit. I set it up to settle with 2-4 inches space and put straw on top and then the showercap. Amendments under the straw and a sweet drink if that's your jam.

Best thing you can do is make the cover from a plastic that's white on one side, black on the other and put the white side up. Plants really like the reflected light and it will help keep your matric/roots cooler. A breather hole or two if its warm, is advisable.

How did you find the DIY air Injection project? DId you have to water like a madman?

Stunger if you do a SIP it'll be plant of the year if you don't win for the last one, and maybe even if you do. I swear to you the hair on the back of my neck just stood up. Spidey-Senses!

OMG, send me seeds brother! Just joking, I know, prohib

 

[Azimuth]

It was tight.

Ok so I have to agree with you. But I just read on and Rezdog is making sense too. I did just get 12.5 oz's this inaugural run. I'm happy with the general outcome, very happy! It's tweak time and this has my eye as something that may be improvable. Maybe if this area of soil is used my calcium def may not have appeared? Who knows. I think improving my wick making when I make up a pot will raise the root table because moisture will be wicked higher.
What about a fabric wick sitting vertical in the soil?

Hey Dog, your experience is priceless, thanks! I'm leaning to agree with you.
Doing a rootopsy I found a significant layer of soil that had what I feel was light root population. I could easily sink my hands in to remove it from the pot, where the lower table of roots I needed dynamite. There were roots but few. I may be able to raise the water table by paying attention to details when I make the pot up. Maybe a wick in there too, one thing at a time.

I think both would be helpful. The new pots have a constant fill. That might help. And I can be more thoughtful next time I make pots up. And maybe a wick someday?

Maritimers SIP grow is looking great! Those pots hold a load of soil! He's going to have a grow on his hands!

I think the conclusion I'm coming to is all of these differences are variations of very good.

If I remember correctly your next grow is with 4 of the Earthboxes. If so, you could answer the mulch/top cover question for all of us.

Box 1, no mulch, no cover
Box 2, organic mulch, no cover
Box 3, organic mulch plus cover
Box 4, no mulch, just the plastic cover

It would be interesting to see if there were either a clear winner and/or loser in the group.

 

[Azimuth]

Yeah, thanks for this guys... or whoamwhatif-ever you are. It's very helpful. More word walls though...

Yup, my main point is, people are having very good results with a plastic showercap or DIY over-hanger, elastic, whatever.

To preface my responses let me say this as straightforwardly as I can (don't make fun).

Once I'd tried all (ok, some - and then some more) of the normal things for mulch and my curiosity over time slightly broke down my instinctual, au natural aesthetic and my at the time, I admit, doctrinal support for ''the natural'' in many things. Guys I've lived completely outside of civilization for two half-decade stretches, non-stop no 'breaks' on my wits and oatmeal. I've been since a small child completely disinterested in material goods that are either not practically useful or stunningly beautiful. ,

I don't want any damn tacky shower caps on my plants! Look, I am arrogant enough to decide I will create the one perfect, ultra-natural, enzymatically composted, seedling-to-harvest, easiest-to-use, bio-redemptive, fertilizer and do it at zero opportunity or sustainment cost, full stop. I don't want no damn shower cap on my plants!

But I do have a shower cap on my plants, so there must be a reason.

It probably comes down to grower preference at this point. And I'll say again that I'm not necessarily trying to max out everything in my grow so, even if the shower cap was a bit better in the end, I likely won't use it.

But your hands-on experience brings good info to the discussion for those who do want to maximize everything.

So I guess @Maritimer will have to chart his own course on this one. The beauty is, there doesn't seem to be a bad choice to be made, just variations of good outcomes.

 

[ReservoirDog]

The beauty is, there doesn't seem to be a bad choice to be made, just variations of good outcomes.

This is our good fortune. And, if we have some kinda issue down the line, we have options. I already live in a natural wonderland, so I have fewer requirements for my tent to give me the feels. But outside I have strict aesthetic and fertility preferences. On the west coast so I fertilize with fish, and design to look like wilderness-plus.

 

[Stunger]

This is a neccesity not only for rain/leech issue, a weird effect happens that the edge of the soil where it meets the vertical pot wall starts to dry and separate because due to plastic just laying on top its the only part exposed to air. That's the last place you want spot-drying, that's supposed to be moister than many other places due to condensation against the vert. pot wall.

I noted your earlier mention of soil edge/pot wall drying. My pots are quite heavily drilled out so they already lose a lot of moisture from the holes, the soil often pulls away from the side. If I go the SIP route I'd probably start with new containers, maybe those tote boxes would be better.

Worms love life under some high breathable mulch and the shower cap style over top. Thety vacation up there, no shit. I set it up to settle with 2-4 inches space and put straw on top and then the showercap. Amendments under the straw and a sweet drink if that's your jam.

That sounds good too. I mostly use pea straw as mulch and when lifted up there are loads of worms there.

Best thing you can do is make the cover from a plastic that's white on one side, black on the other and put the white side up. Plants really like the reflected light and it will help keep your matric/roots cooler. A breather hole or two if its warm, is advisable.

2 colours makes sense.

How did you find the DIY air Injection project? DId you have to water like a madman?

I think they made a positive difference, but this year I did start my seeds off earlier than normal, or rather, this year because I was growing regulars I started more seeds than I needed and that way I ensured I'd get the number of plants I wanted right from the beginning. Previously, for me commercially sold seeds have been really hard to get without getting seized at the border, so I was always careful to only soak what I needed which invariably would cost growing time if not viable as another seed would need to be kicked off and if that too was also not viable the outdoor growing season time gets wasted.

So with the aeration chambers it is hard to compare when this year's grow was kicked off a month earlier which obviously allowed the plants to get bigger in veg. But my feeling is that having an air chamber is probably a positive thing. I am pretty sure I would continue with them if I don't end up going full SIP for which I need to establish that SIPS are a goer for outdoor growing.

But your question of whether I had to water like a madman is appropriate, in hindsight I did indeed water like a madman. The 3 plants reached 10 feet across the balcony but less than 2 feet high and I guess, that when leaves are spread out quite wide with heat radiating from the tiles underneath and coming down at them from the sun above, a larger canopy is probably more likely to show wilting where it is perhaps more difficult for the plant to satisfy the water demand to those leaves (on previous smaller plant grows I didn't see this to this extent).

The plants would wilt in the summer heat (I have recorded the temperature coming off the balcony tiles at over 50C/122F), so my grow location does have potential heat stress to deal with. I had thought given how thirsty the SIPS growing plants seem to get, that I could give mine an extra watering (or two) when they showed wilting since I had the aeration chamber in the pots, so I unfortunately would give them another watering to relieve the wilting and then again late afternoon when they were showing wilting again.

The damage was done to 2 of them when I failed to note when the plants was no longer happy with the watering. Being outdoors with 4 seasons in day sometimes it isn't always clear what they're telling you, but going forward I will limit myself to a single watering a day if I am not in SIPS. Otherwise it's just keeping the reservoirs topped up!

 

[Azimuth]

I am pretty sure I would continue with them if I don't end up going full SIP for which I need to establish that SIPS are a goer for outdoor growing.

My outdoor veggie garden has two of the tote SIPs and they grow great. What is you concern about running one outdoors?

I had thought given how thirsty the SIPS growing plants seem to get, that I could give mine an extra watering (or two) when they showed wilting since I had the aeration chamber in the pots, so I unfortunately would give them another watering to relieve the wilting and then again late afternoon when they were showing wilting again.

I would think that the larger reservoir in a SIP, especially one built from a tote, would serve you quite well on your balcony, and allow you to give them much more water while avoiding the overwatering issue you had if that was indeed what it was.

I still do think that setup would likely lead to larger plants so you might only be able to fit two in your space, but it might be worth the experiment to run at least one SIP if you're not quite fully convinced yet.

 

[NickHardy]

Man, you should grow something huge with gas Nick, that's what its for, some giant, 1.5-kilo Haze or Cheese! THICC body-builder Banzai cool and everything....

I have 21 not quite that big but pretty big in the room already This is a little compo SIP getting Princess treatment!

Nick

 

[Stunger]

My outdoor veggie garden has two of the tote SIPs and they grow great. What is you concern about running one outdoors?


I would think that the larger reservoir in a SIP, especially one built from a tote, would serve you quite well on your balcony, and allow you to give them much more water while avoiding the overwatering issue you had if that was indeed what it was.

I still do think that setup would likely lead to larger plants so you might only be able to fit two in your space, but it might be worth the experiment to run at least one SIP if you're not quite fully convinced yet.

My main concern is 'water' and how they cope with lots of rainfall. If the plants have a constant reservoir water supply and by all accounts they grow happily with that, then I wonder if periods of constant heavy rain causing top watering in addition to the pot's reservoir, if that would cause problems?

 

[Azimuth]

My main concern is 'water' and how they cope with lots of rainfall. If the plants have a constant reservoir water supply and by all accounts they grow happily with that, then I wonder if periods of constant heavy rain causing top watering in addition to the pot's reservoir, if that would cause problems?

Yes, probably would be an issue, which is why I agree with ResDog and the plastic covering for outdoor plants. Along with mounding the soil under the cover.

Basically overfill your container so the soil is several inches higher than the pot rim and slope it down towards the pot edges. Then put your 'shower cap' covering over the whole thing making sure the edges of the cover extend beyond the pot rim to shed rain water.

Make two small 'X's thru the plastic covering with a knife, one right where you intend to put your plant through and the other just above where your fill tube is so you can slide that through the cover.

Maybe @StoneOtter can show a pic from the Earthbox Assembly Instructions as that's how they recommend it.

Although I will say that for my outdoor veggies I don't bother with the cover at all, and just made sure my overflow hole was big enough to dump the water quickly from a big rain event, and that seems to work fine.

 

[StoneOtter]

Ah, @StoneOtter now I understand what your problem was. I am dense sometimes, dude, for real and it's random as hell, left-field stuff, fair warning all concerned.

It really is normal to have a dryer section in the top of a planter that is narrow and tall, as opposed to the inline flat tray style of the other model. I have some tall-draws I've built and it's clear that the moisture becomes harder to pull up the higher you get. Yes, it's a thing. It should be expected, and not necc. sub-optimal I have found.

Hydrotropism is a very powerful effect - these plants are programmed to respond positively to an obvious moisture gradient. It triggers signals for root growth and exploration. That's what trad potted plants do when we douse and dry them but it's inefficient for many reasons. But what they are trying to respond to, even in the trad. container, is the genetic programming of hydrotropism: to find and exploit the water source and if secured exploit the rest as it suits them. You just have a "taller plant" Otter.

But I would top dress amendments, then mulch on top with hay or alfalfa breathable, gently give a quart of something sweet to drink and pop the shower cap on top.

But that's my understanding, my experience and my perspective. I'm frankly more interested in yours and look forward to whatever you do, hoping that the differences enlighten us. I don't think you have a problem.

Pack those wicking feet good, but maybe just at the bottom and keep an even compaction the rest of the way. A major asset of SIPs we rarely think of is that every time we watered our trad. containers, we were compacting the soil a little bit more than it would have been otherwise. I know the soil compacts naturally over time, but it compacts even more when you topwater, and that is energy the plant has to use to extend those roots.

I agree the problem doesn't exist. There's just room for improvement. I'm going to go with good thoughtful compaction and the plastic cover next grows and see the results. With that I'll see if anything else needs a tweak.
If and when I feel like an aggressive action packed grow I'll try intermittent light top water as you mentioned. One could pull a kilo+ out of one of these pots I'm thinking with the right attention! Love me the LOS! SIP's now TOO!

 

[StoneOtter]

I think the conclusion I'm coming to is all of these differences are variations of very good.

If I remember correctly your next grow is with 4 of the Earthboxes. If so, you could answer the mulch/top cover question for all of us.

Box 1, no mulch, no cover
Box 2, organic mulch, no cover
Box 3, organic mulch plus cover
Box 4, no mulch, just the plastic cover

It would be interesting to see if there were either a clear winner and/or loser in the group.

Yes on variations of fery good!
Eye yae eye! That's good thinking! Maybe I'll try it or a portion of it. I'm firing up the single in the 3 x 3 as well in ~two weeks! Waiting for the soil to cook ph up.

Yes, probably would be an issue, which is why I agree with ResDog and the plastic covering for outdoor plants. Along with mounding the soil under the cover.

Basically overfill your container so the soil is several inches higher than the pot rim and slope it down towards the pot edges. The put your 'shower cap' covering over the whole thing making sure the edges of the cover extend beyond the pot rim to shed rain water.

Make two small 'X's thru the plastic covering with a knife, one in the center to put your plant through and the other just above where your fill tube is so you can slide that through the cover.

Maybe @StoneOtter can show a pic from the Earthbox Assembly Instructions as that's how they recommend it.

Although I will say that for my outdoor veggies I don't bother with the cover at all, and just made sure my overflow hole was big enough to dump the water quickly from a big rain event.

They didn't cover that. I filled the pot with soil to the top. Stretched the cover over everything, they included a hole for the tube, and took a sharp knife and made an x corner to corner. Removed the cover and potted the plant and dropped the cover over the top and when it rested on the soil I taped my x closed with gorilla tape.

 

[Bode]

My guess would be - Because there's an overflow hole, water would only get up to that level. Might wash nutrients from soil, but it would in the ground anyways. I'll just add nutrients when they show a need (my first SIP project outdoors this summer). I'll use a straw or grass clippings mulch. Hoping for the best (growing lettuce and cukes). Happy Smokin'

Edit: In responce to stunger's concern.

 

[StoneOtter]

My guess would be - Because there's an overflow hole, water would only get up to that level. Might wash nutrients from soil, but it would in the ground anyways. I'll just add nutrients when they show a need (my first SIP project outdoors this summer). I'll use a straw or grass clippings mulch. Hoping for the best (growing lettuce and cukes). Happy Smokin'

That's coming right up! Nothing like eating from the garden!

 

[ReservoirDog]

Hey everyone, I found a leaf symptom, illustrated guide that was an order of magnitude better than what I'd used before. I'd like to share and maybe confirm with experienced growers whether the info is on target.

Cannabis Leaf Symptoms Quick Guide With Pics | DRCANNABIS.IO

Use cannabis leaf symptoms pictures to quickly diagnose your marijuana plants. Find the pictures that resemble your plants and learn how to fix the problem!

drcannabis.io

And here’s a pic of my second bonsai SIP plant that’s just had its pre harvest wet trim. I honestly hope it’s not as powerful as it looks and smells, I’m still a lightweight as I seem to be smoking tops 3 days per week.

@Stunger One of your specific SIP considerations I think might be that there is a minor height penalty. It can be very, very small if you choose wisely. I do believe that you will benefit as much or more than any of us, from SIPs, given your situation, so I hope that small issue will not dissuade you.

I personally ran 12, 27gal tote SIPs outdoors with veggies, the season before last and it was unforgettably good. Then last year I built a normal raised bed, a biggie, 3ft high, 5ft. across and 35ft long, and decided not to use SIPs but for a few cucumbers. Well... I got psychologically crushed when I realized I would harvest less than half as much food from the huge bed as the prev year SIPs. This year, both!

As for rain, yes, heavy rain can leech a lot of dirt into rez and it can putrify and get you an anaerobic scenario at very bottom, rarely. Doesnt seem a big threat but it did happen to me once, but I just pumped it out and replaced. Always sniff your fill-tube! Earthbox comes with an elasticized cover for just this purpose, and a DIY version for DIY SIPs is easy.


I think the Earthbox would suit you well, the short, long one. There's another model called City picker. I believe a tote-style also would work, DIY. For you, for a single plant, I'd personally look at 17-20 gallon tote, split between: rez 3 gal, planter 14gal? You can cut down the lid to fit as false floor, support it with vertical PVC that's cut to desired reservoir depth. Net pot as wicking foot, or vertical-oriented perforated pipe for a more customizable height than net cup - and also use the perf pipe to support the floor instead of PVC

Above is the City Picker at my local Canadian Tire.

I, frankly, don't believe there is a better outdoor container growing system available and neither do many giant commercial garden installation pros. All the high-end stuff for corporate headquarters, etc. are getting SIP tech to reduce irrigation needs, you can't see it is there unless you know their methods, but it is considered top tech in that world now. I've found some pretty neat wholesalers out there that sell to these guys.

Heat also would need to be coped with; we found that hanging some reflective white or light fabric over the edges, on the outside, works better than just gluing reflective material to the pot itself. After discussing with Avi last year I set up both styles in the same location, both growing tomatoes, and there was a 12 deg Celsius difference an inch below soil surface, and 6deg. C in the reservoirs. The airspace between tote and hanging fabric insulates very well.

Just a head's up, Azi's superpower is getting people to run his experiments for him - without them ever knowing.

 

[Azimuth]

Hey everyone, I found a leaf symptom, illustrated guide that was an order of magnitude better than what I'd used before. I'd like to share and maybe confirm with experienced growers whether the info is on target.

Cannabis Leaf Symptoms Quick Guide With Pics | DRCANNABIS.IO

Use cannabis leaf symptoms pictures to quickly diagnose your marijuana plants. Find the pictures that resemble your plants and learn how to fix the problem!

drcannabis.io

Thanks for this, Dog. Bookmarked.

 

[Fenderbender]

@Melville Hobbes You're reverse reading this whole thread aren't ya? but then you see plants shrink and information being reduced to questions

 

[Melville Hobbes]

I started at the beginning, and I'm slowly catching up, lol!
I'm just starting page 45!

 

[Azimuth]

I started at the beginning, and I'm slowly catching up, lol!
I'm just starting page 45!

There's some good stuff buried around in there.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

There's some good stuff buried around in there.

There is! I'll be posting details of my DIY SIPish planter as soon as I get caught up!
I'll welcome all of your feedback on it!

 

[Azimuth]

There is! I'll be posting details of my DIY SIPish planter as soon as I get caught up!
I'll welcome all of your feedback on it!

Take your time. We'll probably still be here when you're done.