Soil out of pH range again!

[Brofessional888]

Hi guys,

In mid January, my plants got hit with nutrient lock out. It was due to my own fault, I was testing the run off incorrectly. I proceeded to flush my plants to remove salt build up, and my plants recovered nicely after about a week.

I believe I am encountering some sort of salt build up in my soil, because I have noticed the run off of the soil is consistently at 7.0-7.1, no matter what PH my water/feed is. Plants haven’t showed signs of stress yet, I am trying to avoid that promptly.

Strain is Blue Dream by HSO. Day 46 of flowering.
16 pots with organic potting soil (dolomite lime, worm castings, added perlite).
Solar system extreme 1100
Guano Super Bloom (organic)
Canna Bio Flores
Nulife megayield
Emerald harvest CalMag
Cannazyme once a week as per recommendation of the hydro shop to help break down organic matter
Canna PK13/14 (this has stopped after entering into week 7 of flowering)

My questions:
1. Is it too late to flush again? I have heard people say you shouldn’t flush during flowering unless absolutely necessary.
2. Is there something I can add to my feed to get the soil back into ideal range? Dolomite lime etc? If so, could someone please recommend dosage of amendment source per litre or gallon of water.
3. Does anyone know why I am encountering the same problem again?

I have been using a feed feed water water schedule due to my current time schedule.

Below is a little summary of the last few watering/feeds:

08/08 feed
1 and 2 6.0ph
3 4 5 5.9ph

1. 6.5ph 1200ppm
2. 6.8ph 1200ppm
3. 6.7ph 1100ppm
4. 6.7ph 1150ppm
5. 6.8ph 1200ppm

10/02 feed
1 6.0ph
2 3 4 5 5.5ph

1. 6.7ph
2. 6.8ph
3. 6.9ph
4. 6.9ph
5. 6.7ph

12/02 water with molasses
1 - 5.5ph
2 - 4.9ph
5 - plain ph water 5.3ph

1. 7.1ph + 3L of 4.5ph = 6.9ph
2. 6.9ph
3. 6.9ph
4. 6.9ph
5. 6.9ph + 3L of molasses 4.2ph = 6.8ph

14/02 plain water
1 and 5 4.8ph
2 3 4 4.2ph

1. 7.1ph
2. 7.1ph
3. 7.1ph
4. 7.1ph
5. 7.1ph

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[013]

Hey 888,

Welcome to 420! Testing runoff is pointless, that’s the ph value of the water coming out of the bucket not the ph of the soil. To test the soil ph requires a slurry test with distilled water. Runoff contains chemical salts from your nutes plus tiny bits of broken down sediment from your media, so it’s an inflated number anyway. Here is where many new growers hit the wall... they hear about testing the runoff, they do it and go OMG promptly freak out and start jacking with the inputs to get different / better / higher / lower number in the runoff. Next thing you know the plant shits the bed.

If you do adjust ph or ppms then worry about the inputs that is the numbers right before you feed but forget about the runoff. But.... some will argue.... some will agree - if you are in a well balanced organic soil.... the ph or ppms don’t mean crap anyway.

You can flush anytime - doesn’t mean it will help the plant tho. If you were adding dolomite it should be based on how many gallons of soil not how much water but bigger still..... maybe don’t try to correct a problem that hasn’t happened yet.

Would help for everyone to see a daylight (non blurple) pic of the plant in question. Perhaps consider going to feed water feed water routine.

that’s my 2 cents - but see what other replies come in

 

[bluter]

couple pics would help to see what is going on with the plant itself.

 

[Emilya Green]

3. Does anyone know why I am encountering the same problem again?

I could write a book on this... My god @Brofessional888, I am glad you found us! Welcome to the forum!

I have never seen a grow method such as yours. My main question is where does this come from?? Have you decided to do all of these things, or have you been under the advice of this hydro grow shop all this time? Did they tell you do it this way??

Wow... alright... lets fill in some details and then im going to go slow with this... I don't want to accuse anyone of anything shady till I know more.

 

[bluter]

wayward youth hangin out at the hydro shop pickin up bad habits ...

 

[Brofessional888]

Hey 888,

Welcome to 420! Testing runoff is pointless, that’s the ph value of the water coming out of the bucket not the ph of the soil. To test the soil ph requires a slurry test with distilled water. Runoff contains chemical salts from your nutes plus tiny bits of broken down sediment from your media, so it’s an inflated number anyway. Here is where many new growers hit the wall... they hear about testing the runoff, they do it and go OMG promptly freak out and start jacking with the inputs to get different / better / higher / lower number in the runoff. Next thing you know the plant shits the bed.

If you do adjust ph or ppms then worry about the inputs that is the numbers right before you feed but forget about the runoff. But.... some will argue.... some will agree - if you are in a well balanced organic soil.... the ph or ppms don’t mean crap anyway.

You can flush anytime - doesn’t mean it will help the plant tho. If you were adding dolomite it should be based on how many gallons of soil not how much water but bigger still..... maybe don’t try to correct a problem that hasn’t happened yet.

Would help for everyone to see a daylight (non blurple) pic of the plant in question. Perhaps consider going to feed water feed water routine.

that’s my 2 cents - but see what other replies come in

Thanks for the welcome mate can you tell I’m a first time grower?

It seems I’m being steered wrong and also not doing my own proper research. I just follow a couple of the main guys on YouTube. None of them have said to check soil PH, just run off and PPM. A guy at my hydro shop also said the the run off PH is ‘close’ to the PH of the root zone.

You mentioned just worry about the input. So if I’m growing in soil, what should be my target PH? 5.8-6.3 or there abouts? Also, how often is a good frequency to check soil PH? Once a week?

I will upload a photo of all of the plants in a couple of days. I actually don’t have the luxury of having my garden at my house, hence there are more challenges that most wouldn’t have. Due to my day job hours, and the fact that I can’t trust anyone that stays in the household to do something complicated like mixing nutrients in a specific order and PH adjusting and recording etc etc, I was forced to adopted the feed/feed/water/water schedule.

I will also now be on the hunt for a new growing method. One that is as simple and error free as possible, but that will be a conversation on a different thread, which I will post up soon.

 

[Brofessional888]

I could write a book on this... My god @Brofessional888, I am glad you found us! Welcome to the forum!

I have never seen a grow method such as yours. My main question is where does this come from?? Have you decided to do all of these things, or have you been under the advice of this hydro grow shop all this time? Did they tell you do it this way??

Wow... alright... lets fill in some details and then im going to go slow with this... I don't want to accuse anyone of anything shady till I know more.

I’m glad I found you guys too! You can probably tell I’m a first time grower haha. But I’ve already been impressed with the willingness from people to give input.

As mentioned in my reply to @013, I probably have more challenges than most. My garden is not at my home, and I cannot trust the people that tend to my plants when I’m not there to do something as complicated as feeding (even though it’s quite simple ). So, I have to do my feeding on the days I have off, and then trust the others to do the simple task of just giving PH adjusted water and calmag/bloom booster.

Ill try and explain my reasoning for this entire grow. Being a first time grower, and wanting the best quality cannabis I could possibly grow within the time budget I have, I opted to go for a simple amended soil of dolomite lime, worm castings, and perlite. I didn’t have time to prepare a good organic soil, so I went with the above option. I also chose to go with organic feeds, like guano super grow/bloom, canna bio Flores, and an organic bloom booster.

So to answer your question, I have done most of what I’m doing through personal choice, not from advice of the hydro shops. I also have to do what works for me and my schedule. Which isn’t ideal, but it’s all I’ve got.

I will be posting another thread asking people for their recommendations on what is the best grow method for someone with my time schedule, and also what is the most simple and uncomplicated feed schedule and substrate to use for my next grow. If you would like to answer this question while we are here Emilya, feel free to do so

 

[Emilya Green]

I’m glad I found you guys too! You can probably tell I’m a first time grower haha. But I’ve already been impressed with the willingness from people to give input.

As mentioned in my reply to @013, I probably have more challenges than most. My garden is not at my home, and I cannot trust the people that tend to my plants when I’m not there to do something as complicated as feeding (even though it’s quite simple ). So, I have to do my feeding on the days I have off, and then trust the others to do the simple task of just giving PH adjusted water and calmag/bloom booster.

Ill try and explain my reasoning for this entire grow. Being a first time grower, and wanting the best quality cannabis I could possibly grow within the time budget I have, I opted to go for a simple amended soil of dolomite lime, worm castings, and perlite. I didn’t have time to prepare a good organic soil, so I went with the above option. I also chose to go with organic feeds, like guano super grow/bloom, canna bio Flores, and an organic bloom booster.

So to answer your question, I have done most of what I’m doing through personal choice, not from advice of the hydro shops. I also have to do what works for me and my schedule. Which isn’t ideal, but it’s all I’ve got.

I will be posting another thread asking people for their recommendations on what is the best grow method for someone with my time schedule, and also what is the most simple and uncomplicated feed schedule and substrate to use for my next grow. If you would like to answer this question while we are here Emilya, feel free to do so

It seems I’m being steered wrong and also not doing my own proper research. I just follow a couple of the main guys on YouTube. None of them have said to check soil PH, just run off and PPM. A guy at my hydro shop also said the the run off PH is ‘close’ to the PH of the root zone.

You mentioned just worry about the input. So if I’m growing in soil, what should be my target PH? 5.8-6.3 or there abouts? Also, how often is a good frequency to check soil PH? Once a week?

Well yes, as a brand new grower you have made a number of reasoned decisions that frankly, were wrong, and probably the result of listening to the Youtube guys. You might be surprised how many troubled grows come here, because of those popular youtube guys and some of the wild advice that comes out of their shows. The guy at the hydro shop did not seem to know a thing about soil either and the advice he gave you about soil pH and runoff was also wrong. The way you amended and the type of soil you have used needs to be examined as well because your youtube guru is also giving you bad advice and is not giving you the whole story, a couple of them are actually running quasi hydro operations and calling it a soil op.

Ph is very misunderstood and you are not to be faulted for being confused. If you are growing with synthetic nutes in soil, you need to pH your inputs to 6.3. This is the point where mathematically the most nutes are the most mobile in the soil. If you are not running synthetic nutes, YOU DO NOT NEED TO ADJUST THE PH. As far as the soil pH goes, you should NEVER need to adjust or even check the pH of the soil.

Soil pH, or the base pH, or the pH the soil reverts to when it is dry, is set by the manufacturer. If you are growing orchids which require a very acidic soil, you will need to get a special soil with its base pH set down in the 4's. Any normal potting soil is usually set (buffered) to a pH just a little more acidic than neutral, or around 6.8 pH. This is done for a very specific reason. This is so that you can come in with your inputs at 6.3, and then the buffers in the soil will slide that input through the usable pH range, up to 6.8. Your applied nutes drift through the entire range, making every nute available to the plant. Adding extra amendments that mess with this drift rate, like extra dolomite, are not conducive to a good grow and it usually should be avoided. Also, checking runoff pH in a soil grow is pointless and the reading is totally arbitrary depending on the percentage of runoff, and then making adjustments to the soil based on those random readings can totally ruin a soil.

So while you got me, I will throw in my 2c about a grow method that I think would work best for you. I think I could simplify your life quite a bit, and make what you do almost automatic. I could get you back to the ease of a soil grow operation where all you need to have your peeps do is add water when needed, and not even worry about pH. The operation I am suggesting would make the youtube guys look silly, working as hard as they do to grow pot. I could guarantee you a great grow using hardware store cheap organic potting soil with no extra amendments... none... and then with just one application of a fertilizer to the top of the soil once every 2 weeks on watering day. You could do all the feedings when you get home with no chance of anyone else messing anything up. Best of all, this would be a totally organic grow, producing the best quality possible for whatever strain you happen to be growing.

@GeoFlora Nutrients They are a sponsor here. Check out their ad. This is my grow method of choice, and it sounds perfect for you. Order some now.

 

[Brofessional888]

Well yes, as a brand new grower you have made a number of reasoned decisions that frankly, were wrong, and probably the result of listening to the Youtube guys. You might be surprised how many troubled grows come here, because of those popular youtube guys and some of the wild advice that comes out of their shows. The guy at the hydro shop did not seem to know a thing about soil either and the advice he gave you about soil pH and runoff was also wrong. The way you amended and the type of soil you have used needs to be examined as well because your youtube guru is also giving you bad advice and is not giving you the whole story, a couple of them are actually running quasi hydro operations and calling it a soil op.

Ph is very misunderstood and you are not to be faulted for being confused. If you are growing with synthetic nutes in soil, you need to pH your inputs to 6.3. This is the point where mathematically the most nutes are the most mobile in the soil. If you are not running synthetic nutes, YOU DO NOT NEED TO ADJUST THE PH. As far as the soil pH goes, you should NEVER need to adjust or even check the pH of the soil.

Soil pH, or the base pH, or the pH the soil reverts to when it is dry, is set by the manufacturer. If you are growing orchids which require a very acidic soil, you will need to get a special soil with its base pH set down in the 4's. Any normal potting soil is usually set (buffered) to a pH just a little more acidic than neutral, or around 6.8 pH. This is done for a very specific reason. This is so that you can come in with your inputs at 6.3, and then the buffers in the soil will slide that input through the usable pH range, up to 6.8. Your applied nutes drift through the entire range, making every nute available to the plant. Adding extra amendments that mess with this drift rate, like extra dolomite, are not conducive to a good grow and it usually should be avoided. Also, checking runoff pH in a soil grow is pointless and the reading is totally arbitrary depending on the percentage of runoff, and then making adjustments to the soil based on those random readings can totally ruin a soil.

So while you got me, I will throw in my 2c about a grow method that I think would work best for you. I think I could simplify your life quite a bit, and make what you do almost automatic. I could get you back to the ease of a soil grow operation where all you need to have your peeps do is add water when needed, and not even worry about pH. The operation I am suggesting would make the youtube guys look silly, working as hard as they do to grow pot. I could guarantee you a great grow using hardware store cheap organic potting soil with no extra amendments... none... and then with just one application of a fertilizer to the top of the soil once every 2 weeks on watering day. You could do all the feedings when you get home with no chance of anyone else messing anything up. Best of all, this would be a totally organic grow, producing the best quality possible for whatever strain you happen to be growing.

@GeoFlora Nutrients They are a sponsor here. Check out their ad. This is my grow method of choice, and it sounds perfect for you. Order some now.

Well yes, as a brand new grower you have made a number of reasoned decisions that frankly, were wrong, and probably the result of listening to the Youtube guys. You might be surprised how many troubled grows come here, because of those popular youtube guys and some of the wild advice that comes out of their shows. The guy at the hydro shop did not seem to know a thing about soil either and the advice he gave you about soil pH and runoff was also wrong. The way you amended and the type of soil you have used needs to be examined as well because your youtube guru is also giving you bad advice and is not giving you the whole story, a couple of them are actually running quasi hydro operations and calling it a soil op.

Ph is very misunderstood and you are not to be faulted for being confused. If you are growing with synthetic nutes in soil, you need to pH your inputs to 6.3. This is the point where mathematically the most nutes are the most mobile in the soil. If you are not running synthetic nutes, YOU DO NOT NEED TO ADJUST THE PH. As far as the soil pH goes, you should NEVER need to adjust or even check the pH of the soil.

Soil pH, or the base pH, or the pH the soil reverts to when it is dry, is set by the manufacturer. If you are growing orchids which require a very acidic soil, you will need to get a special soil with its base pH set down in the 4's. Any normal potting soil is usually set (buffered) to a pH just a little more acidic than neutral, or around 6.8 pH. This is done for a very specific reason. This is so that you can come in with your inputs at 6.3, and then the buffers in the soil will slide that input through the usable pH range, up to 6.8. Your applied nutes drift through the entire range, making every nute available to the plant. Adding extra amendments that mess with this drift rate, like extra dolomite, are not conducive to a good grow and it usually should be avoided. Also, checking runoff pH in a soil grow is pointless and the reading is totally arbitrary depending on the percentage of runoff, and then making adjustments to the soil based on those random readings can totally ruin a soil.

So while you got me, I will throw in my 2c about a grow method that I think would work best for you. I think I could simplify your life quite a bit, and make what you do almost automatic. I could get you back to the ease of a soil grow operation where all you need to have your peeps do is add water when needed, and not even worry about pH. The operation I am suggesting would make the youtube guys look silly, working as hard as they do to grow pot. I could guarantee you a great grow using hardware store cheap organic potting soil with no extra amendments... none... and then with just one application of a fertilizer to the top of the soil once every 2 weeks on watering day. You could do all the feedings when you get home with no chance of anyone else messing anything up. Best of all, this would be a totally organic grow, producing the best quality possible for whatever strain you happen to be growing.

@GeoFlora Nutrients They are a sponsor here. Check out their ad. This is my grow method of choice, and it sounds perfect for you. Order some now.

Wow. Now I feel a bit stupid

Thank you kindly for the input and advice. Would it be best I just continue my feeding schedule without adjusting the PH or my feed, regardless of what the PH of my soil is? For example, if I test the soil and it is 7.0ph, do I still give them unadjusted ph feed? (From memory after I add all my nutrients, unadjusted PH is 5.5).

The problem here is I live in the Southern Hemisphere, and we have very tight restrictions on importing products like this. My next grow will also be with autos, would this method still work with autos? My research shows that autos do better with less nutrients than photo periods...

 

[Emilya Green]

Wow. Now I feel a bit stupid

Thank you kindly for the input and advice. Would it be best I just continue my feeding schedule without adjusting the PH or my feed, regardless of what the PH of my soil is? For example, if I test the soil and it is 7.0ph, do I still give them unadjusted ph feed? (From memory after I add all my nutrients, unadjusted PH is 5.5).

The problem here is I live in the Southern Hemisphere, and we have very tight restrictions on importing products like this. My next grow will also be with autos, would this method still work with autos? My research shows that autos do better with less nutrients than photo periods...

Your research is again bringing you myth and lies... Autos are simply plants that work a little faster than other plants, but in their short life spans it is entirely possible to grow a huge plant that can use a lot of nutes or at least as many as any other plant. To short a plant of nutes that could have made it grow bigger, just because some dude on youtube said to... well that is just silly. Before you believe things like this, you need to not "research" them... you need to try it for yourself and verify if it is true or not. The amount of nutes you need depends on the plant, your grow method, the intensity of your light and your personal skills as a gardener... it has nothing at all to do with bad advice coming off of the internet to be timid with your nutes just because it is an auto.

You don't have to just blindly trust what I am saying, apply logic to your searches for truth. Ask yourself a very revealing question. Ask why NONE of the nutrient companies.... NONE of them provide a separate feeding chart for autos as compared to regular photoperiod plants. hmmm.. A plant is a plant is a plant... Don't believe everything you read.

Regarding pH... you still are thinking the soil pH has anything to do with anything here. Ignore the soil pH. Only concern yourself with the pH of your incoming fluids. Adjust any fluid hitting your soil to 6.3 pH and the soil will take care of itself and do what it does to drift your pH through the range. You are still thinking that you yourself can test your soil pH, not realizing that the pH in that container will be different depending on where you measure it, and how wet or dry the soil is. You are not realizing that in order to correctly check the base pH of your soil, you need to do a slurry test, in a vacuum. An equal amount of distilled water and the same weight of a representative sample of your soil, mixed and pH measured without any air getting to it is how it is done... most home labs are not capable of this measurement. You are flying blindly and being led by people on youtube who are just as blind. It is my hopes to open your eyes to be able to see the path you have been on, and that there IS a better way. There is a reason for your recent problems.

 

[Brofessional888]

Hi again guys,

I was finally able to visit my garden again today. I took a photo of each of the plants with the red and blue light turned off. To me it looks like a deficiency is starting to make its way up from the bottom to the top of the plant?

I ended up doing a mini flush on my medium (time restraint as usual) with 6.0ph water, which is water from the ground, unadjusted.

 

[Emilya Green]

Sorry... I am not seeing it. Zoom in on a leaf that you think is showing a deficiency. At first glance your plants look beautiful and appear to be finishing up nicely.

 

[Brofessional888]

Sorry... I am not seeing it. Zoom in on a leaf that you think is showing a deficiency. At first glance your plants look beautiful and appear to be finishing up nicely.

I just thought the little bit of yellowing at the bottom was bad. I guess this is good news then thanks for your input!

 

[Emilya Green]

Starting at the bottom and moving up indicates a mobile nutrient deficiency, and based on some of the leaf tips, I think it is potassium that is lacking in the amounts that are needed right now to finish up the buds, so the plant is stealing what it needs from the lower storehouse leaves. A high K finishing supplement would probably stop this, but it isn't necessary at this point... the plant is going to finish out strong and a little yellowing at the end is very common. How much time do you have left on this bloom?

 

[Brofessional888]

Starting at the bottom and moving up indicates a mobile nutrient deficiency, and based on some of the leaf tips, I think it is potassium that is lacking in the amounts that are needed right now to finish up the buds, so the plant is stealing what it needs from the lower storehouse leaves. A high K finishing supplement would probably stop this, but it isn't necessary at this point... the plant is going to finish out strong and a little yellowing at the end is very common. How much time do you have left on this bloom?

Two of the phenos were very quick to show their first pistils, while the other 3 were 3-4 days after to show their first pistils. The two fast flowering phenos now seem like they are about 1 week ahead of the other 3 I think.

So counting back 2 weeks from the breeders recommendation of flowering time (65-70 days), the faster phenos should enter their 2 week flush on 19th Feb. While the other 3 should start a flush from 22nd Feb. this is using a rule of 65 days for flowering. I am aware that this is may be plus or minus some days depending on trichome development.

I was planning on aiming for 30% amber 70% cloudy trichomes before chopping. Your thoughts on this?

I was also hoping to give all of them 48hrs of darkness before chopping but with different maturing times this will be difficult for me.

 

[Emilya Green]

yep, sounds like you are very close indeed. 30% is going to be some very hard hitting pot. Be careful with that stuff! Keep in mind too that the next step from amber is black... the trichomes start to degrade. Also remember that it keeps maturing even after the chop, until you get the RH down below 70%

I have found that 36 hours of darkness is enough to get a very strong darkness effect and 48 hours provides very little additional benefit, if that will help. The trichomes are also maturing quickly in here, so you might want to pull into the dark at 20%.