Stable strain or simple cross?

[Druid]

I did a few grows back in the early to mid 80's - Skunk #1 from the Dutch Seed Bank - with good luck. Didn't grow for many years (kids, career, etc.) but recently decided to grow again to provide me a modest supply. (I get great relief from pain from a spinal stenosis and dramatic improvements in anxiety due to bipolar with a fairly small dose of marijuana.)

I purchased seeds from a variety of breeders, all ordered thru the same online vendor. I grew out 5 different "strains" in consecutive 5-plant grows. In every case I observed large phenotypic variance of key properties (plant color, odor, etc.) among the presumed siblings. This last grow you wouldn't have thought the sibs were even related. Also, the potency in *every* plant was much lower than I expected.

A stable back-crossed strain should breed true, producing virtually identical offspring, all inheriting the potency of the selected maternal line. A simple cross of two strains will typically exhibit the parent's ancestral makeup as all kinds of dogs and cats tumble out of the old germ plasm attic.

I believe I was sold F1 crosses instead of true stabalized back-crossed strains. Is this common practice in the industry now?

Who are the more established and reputable breeders? I don't have space to mess with growing out "surprise seeds"!

Thanks for insights...

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

I've often wondered this myself & come to the conculsion after reading many of the artical from the 420 editor which are stickyed on this very page & here it is - List of Breeding and Seed Links - Index

Some very good reading material.

Well stabilised seeds are going to be damn hard to get your hands but not impossible.

It takes some 4 to 5 generations of breeding to get a reasonable stabilised plant but the seeds from these plants will still display phenotypes of the multiple parent history some where along the lines of the hundreds of seeds produced.


If you have a plant which has favourable growth characteristics/flavour/yield etc is to take cutting/clones or have a mother plant of it to preserve what you like about it.


As for a suitable seed company, i've done a little research to find some of the older companys of the day expect top dollar for some of their best seeds tho.

DJ Short - got some good history
Sensi seeds & Dutch Passion look favourable also.

 

[norcalgrown]

sensi seeds

 

[Druid]

Thanks for the link Fuzzy - some great info. After doing some reading there I realized that it was not the F1 generation I was sold, but the F2. If you have 2 stable strains A and B, and you cross them to produce the new hybrid C =(A X B), all of the F1 seeds will inherit a mix of the 2 parent strain's dominant genes and will be highly homogenous, less the occasional throwback as Fuzzy mentioned. If the C hybrids are used to parent an F2 generation you don't get more C, you get C X C = (A X B) X (A X B), so you end up with a lot of genetic/phenotypic variability in the population - hence all the dogs and cats in my grows.

If I still have the genetics wrong please chime in. But the bottom line's the same - if there are people out there selling crappy seeds as such-and-such strain (and, based on my experience, I'd say there are) then we as a community have a problem.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Most strains these days are not stabilized. That's not so much a problem as something to be aware of. And it's a completely different matter than "people out there selling crappy seeds as such-and-such strain." Although if you did not receive your seeds in their original breeder's sealed packaging - especially if the seedbank is not a well-known reputable one - then I suppose there is always at least a chance that you received something other than what you ordered. OtoH... There are a lot of breeders these days and comparing strains from different breeders (at a seedbank that carries many breeders' products) will quickly show you that it is not an uncommon practice for a breeder (or a "breeder") to get another breeder's seeds, grow them out, and sell the resulting seeds which are likely to be a crapshoot in terms of phenotypes. Or they might cross two different strains from one or two breeders. There is no respect for "copyright or patent" or the like. It kind of sucks. You can imagine that often there is no effort put forth in stabilizing in the aforementioned scenario. [EDIT: Personally, I think Hortipharm, Sam the Skunkman, and GW Pharmaceuticals' involvement in cannabis is by far the worst problem when it comes to strains, seeds, breeding, and the future of cannabis.]

Best thing you could do is to take a cutting from each plant, sample them all after harvest, and keep the one(s) that you like best. You could always "self" it, I suppose.

There are some fully-stabilized strains, you might choose to grow one of them. But you give up hybrid vigor and most of the really "high-potency" strains seem to be crosses that have multiple phenotypes (and, often as not, the highest potency comes from one of the lesser-seen phenos, lol).

BtW, Sensi Seeds still produces Skunk #1 seeds. It might be their cheapest strain. Every seedbank worthy of the designation will carry Sensi Seeds' merchandise. (Bear in mind that even with stable genetic groups, there tends to be some variation over time, so it may not be exactly what you grew before.)

 

[Flipper]

Pure seems to be a thing of the pasted. Years back in the 60-70ties you knew what you got was the real thing. Most grown outside and let to pollenate. Seeds yes but still very potent. Breeders today have crossed the pure out of the orig. base strains. Even the seeds i get today are hard to germ (Shell too hard) because they want to get their product to market too quick also too many F2's. I don't know how breeders can use the strain name with completly different stock. So the best thing to do is research the strain and see what stock they use. Pick which ones are closest to what you want and bx them till you can get a purer strain to your liking.

Let us know how that works out for you.

Flip

 

[Druid]

Thanks for your perspective TorturedSoul - you seem to have good insight on the state of the seed industry today, and it's not pretty. Your remark "...it is not an uncommon practice for a breeder (or a "breeder") to get another breeder's seeds, grow them out, and sell the resulting seeds which are likely to be a crapshoot in terms of phenotypes" perfectly describes my experience. While the seeds were not cheap, that cost pales next to the hours tending the plants with loving care only to end up with a bunch of genetic throwbacks lacking the potency of your typical Mexican street weed.

I have no ambitions to try to be a "breeder", if only for my own stock. All I wanted was some decent hybrids to plant - all I got was screwed! I will try again using a different source. (I would still love to hear more about other's experience with various vendors to try to maximize my chances of getting good stock.) Failing that maybe I'll contemplate a move to a state where medical marijuana is (quasi-) legal.

Thanks all