The Candlelight Club: Support Group For Those Running 400W & Less

[Ganjagrowergu]

yes they are MY creation

And a wonderful creation they are my friend. I didn't yield much because I messed a couple things up, mainly ph, but GAWD it was excellent in every other way. It will make an excellent sog, after I make more seeds.

I bring up sog because I think with that and scrog it's just way more efficient use of lighting. I dont really do either. I do 11/13 from seed for all strains and I plant new seeds every 3 or so weeks, so I guess kind of have an inefficient multi-strain sog... I get my mars300 back today, I'm putting my monster sativa under that.

 

[Rifleman]

And a wonderful creation they are my friend. I didn't yield much because I messed a couple things up, mainly ph, but GAWD it was excellent in every other way. It will make an excellent sog, after I make more seeds.

I bring up sog because I think with that and scrog it's just way more efficient use of lighting. I dont really do either. I do 11/13 from seed for all strains and I plant new seeds every 3 or so weeks, so I guess kind of have an inefficient multi-strain sog... I get my mars300 back today, I'm putting my monster sativa under that.

 

[TheFertilizer]

What an interesting thread! I too am a relatively low-watt grower. I live in a very hot place and am always looking for ways to reduce heat and electricity use. I am able to grow for 9-10 months of the year without using airco (just passive intake with extractor fan).

I have two tents :
Tent 1: 1x1x2 Metres with 240 Watt Full spectrum LED with passive heat syncs (really 240 Watts - this is a non-sponsor brand and an incredibly good light). I either grow six smaller plants (14 Litre airpots) or 4 bigger plants (in 20L airpots) in this space using coco/perlite mix and GHE nutes. Since LED doesn't have great penetration I train my plants constantly to fill up the entire space with an even canopy. The more the canopy is filled up, the better the yield. I either do manifolds (top 3 times for 8 colas per plant), a combination of topping and LSTing or with pure Indicas (that don't love topping too much), I do LST/supercropping only. I tend to defoliate throughout veg and just before flip to 12/12 clean up the plant, defoliate heavily and leave the top 3-4 nodes (depends on how far the light penetrates). End of week 3 of 12/12 another heavy defoliation/clean up. I regularly hit 0.75 -1gr per watt every harvest (this is weighed after a severe wet trim, a weeks dry and two weeks cure). My best result was the last grow where I had 2 x Super Lemon Haze and 2 x White widow in this tent. Total was 280 gr dried, cured bud (from a 240 Watt LED).

Tent 2: 60cmx60cmx160cm with a cheap 140 Watt "blurple" non-branded Chinese LED, We measured the true pull on this and it was 120 watts, This is a tent I use for breeding and seed making but have also grown a few plants to smoke. Only one (max two) plants are grown in this tent. Again plants grown are heavily trained and I regularly pull around 0.75-0.85 gr per watt from this tent. Slightly lower than the other tent - but I am pretty sure this is down to the superior LED I have in tent number 1.

Apart from a decent light and good genetics, I find the main factor that affects quality and quantity of produce is by having an as close to ideal environtment as possible. Proper temps, RH, airflow etc makes a BIG difference (even if using a powerful light). Of course it is easier to obtain bigger yields with higher wattage lights, but I am very happy with my results and grow enough for myself - at the same time using a lot less electricity and keeping costs down. A friend of mine who runs 3 grow rooms each with a 600 W HPS, has also drastically improved his yield by defoliating regularly. 600w HPS will result in a good crop but he regularly improves yields by 50-60% by defoliating. I don't mean to be controversial by bringing up defoliation (I know many are against this) but it works for me and my HPS-loving friend. Since HPS generally has better penetration than most LEDs, after trying defoliation in a planned, controlled manner (not going crazy pulling off leaves indiscriminately), his improvement in yield was great than mine as I use LEDs exclusively).

That sounds like really good yield. I just barely got over 360 grams off one plant outdoor.

I wonder how much training effects it too though. It seems like the biggest yields I tend to see are from plants that were scrogged, fluxed or otherwise trained so that they grow out laterally and fill up a level plane.

I also think environment plays a really big role, and I think humidity is more important than people realize. I run with humidity chronically low, not really by choice. I get chronically low yield. I don't know if it's a solid correlation but I've been trying to do what I can to increase my humidity levels. I have to TRY to keep it at 50% during flower.


This is what I've got going right now. A total of 515 W with the 315 W CMH and the T5.

IMG_20181102_091221.jpg

• TheFertilizer
• Nov 2, 2018

 

[TorturedSoul]

I wonder how much training effects it too though. It seems like the biggest yields I tend to see are from plants that were scrogged, fluxed or otherwise trained so that they grow out laterally and fill up a level plane.

It has the potential to affect it a great deal. In your picture, the tallest plant in the middle is preventing you from lowering the light so that it is that close to the other tops, all of them are preventing you from lowering the light closer to the mid- / bottom-buds, et cetera. Thus, one gets bitten by the inverse square lighting law.

This is in addition to any plant density considerations (whether or not upper growth becomes to dense to allow one's light to penetrate downwards to any significant degree).

On the other hand, physics does not only work in one dimension, lol. In other words, that same lighting law applies in regards to the lateral distance between light source and plant/buds, too. And this can be compounded by a poor reflector - or even a good one, if it is not matched to the size and shape of the grow space. Most grow tents are square in area, but many light sources produce a non-square rectangular footprint, stuff like that. So there might be "weak places" in ones garden where the gross light level is less (sometimes combined with a couple tent walls that are really well-lit, lol). I don't know if its all that common for people to initially set up their light(s) in a big space that is otherwise unlit so that they can lower it close to the floor and get a real good idea of the shape of that light's footprint, then raise it and observe what that does... A reflector that is designed well for use with a 1kW HID bulb is not likely to be the best choice for a 250- or even 400-watt HID, because the former would (likely) be designed to spread the much greater amount of light, while the latter - not being able to produce that amount of light - would need to be directed over a smaller area. One cannot always compensate by raising/lowering the fixture (see my comment about two brightly lit walls).

LED panels are a different animal, of course, and (mostly) use lenses to help control/create the footprint. If the panel consists of the mono-color LEDs, then you have a whole bunch of separate light sources, that should be mixed; stick your hand under one of the panels and you see it illuminated by (oft times) "blurple" light - but raise your hand, and continue to do so... and there will be a point when you see "spots" on your hand instead of a blend of light. Lower your hand and you don't have that issue - but there may still be uneven blending due to the discrete/separate wavelengths involved. I confess I do not know how significant this is within the distances that we are concerned with, though. I know that there is a significant issue where water is concerned (for example, a relatively deep aquarium), but it might not be a factor in air over several inches to a couple feet.

Err... I've been rambling again, haven't I?

I suppose that the trick is to figure out the characteristics of one's specific lighting setup, and train one's plants to take advantage of it. That often means a flat-plane canopy - but it need not always be the case. Actually, with HID lighting, a bit of a "bowl" shape would be better (especially if one isn't using one of those clamp-on things that cut some of the light from ending up directly below the bulb). That whole flat-plane "scrog" method came about back in the '80s when most everyone was using 4' and/or 8' fluorescent tubes, packed closely together. So it's a bit of a trade-off even with HIDs.

Unfortunately, the Mark I Eyeball, Human isn't especially good at detecting "minor" (<20%) changes in lighting. We might fail to notice small inconsistencies, or to perceive greater ones as being minor. But, over the course of a grow cycle, it can add up to quite a few grams' difference at harvest time. And there are so many variables in a cannabis grow that it can be difficult to figure everything out.

 

[sfgiantsfan]

I'm running a 200w, timber citizen clu48 light in 4 square feet. Last grow, I netted .65 gpw which was not good in my opinion. Better than I thought considering the challenges I had, good smoke but paltry quantity.

My current grow will be better with fewer plants.

 

[Bilbobudkin420]

I feel like there should be specific support for those running low light intensities. Frankly I get kind of annoyed when people spoiled with their kilowatt+ gardens just run around telling newbies, "More light!" like it is the only answer, and without regard to whether they even can run more light. Plus, it seems to really skew the advice and experience people can give and receive. For example, i keep hearing about 1 gram per watt. Does anyone running less than 1000 watt HIDs ever get 1 gram per watt? Does anyone running 400 watts or less get that? If so, in what size footprint, etc. See I want this thread to be geared specifically towards people who actually grow with low light, with real experience, not just trying to extrapolate guidelines that were based on 1 KW HIDs. Does 1 gram per watt translate from a 1000 W HID down to a 250 W CFL? I highly doubt it. Is 50 watts a sq/ft really the bare minimum needed to grow anything worth while, or do people get good crops with less (ask SweetSue and her 20 w/sq-ft grow )? The thing is I'm asking these questions rhetorically, because I've seen people grow good crops with less than 50 w/sq-ft, and I know a 250 W CFL isn't going to get 250 grams. But it's that kind of number extrapolation and misguided-scaling of numbers that I think is the problem. People shouldn't be applying what works with a 1000 W grow to a 400 W grow, and sharing experiences and wisdom about 1000 watt grows just doesn't really serve those with lower lighting that well when the experiences are vastly different.

It's my hope that people can ask questions in this thread, and NEVER get the answer of "more light". This is about how to make it work with less light. Not that I'm advocating people should use less when they can use more, but there are all sorts of limitations that might prevent someone from running an adequate light, and so I think there needs to be a thread to address that situation. Beyond that, I think there's probably a lot of merit in pot growers trying to limit their energy usage, rather than making a trend out of kilowatt level gardens. It would be better for everyone if people can figure out how to make due with less, so hopefully this will appeal to any of the environmentally concerned out there as well.


Anyway to start off, I'd hope that the answers to this question can be restricted to people with actual experience with this, and that others can resist their urge to try to extrapolate an answer based on guidelines developed around hugely intense light levels... In other words, if you run a 600W or above, hold your comments please. If you just can't bite your tongue, whatever, it's a free country

Now, those who run 400 W or less, how do you find the footprint of your grow area has affected your yield? Footprint is pretty much the only variable we can increase light-intensity with if we're limited to a low-energy light. For example, most 400W lighting options are recommended to run in a 3x3 tent (based on footprints found to work best with high-output lights though), but a 4x4 tent is a much more popular option, but you're talking about 44 w/sq-ft intensity versus 25 w/sq-ft. If someone with a 300-400 W light switched to a 3x3 tent, how much more yield per plant could they expect with that greater light intensity? Again, people with no actual experience running a 300-400 W light and switching to a smaller footprint, please resist commenting based on extrapolations and scaled figures on what you would expect from a 1000w light, because that's the point: I'd like to see if these figures can really be scaled along light intensities in a linear way. If they can, great, but if they can't, then people shouldn't be telling 400 W light owners to drop down to a 3x3 tent if it's not going to increase their yield and just give them less room for plants.

At the end of this, there's always other variables affecting yield. So I may not have ever broke .5 grams per watt, but maybe I'm a crummy grower, have crummy genetics, etc. We won't ever really know until we isolate variables, and light intensity is a huge variable. GIven that low lighting options have become so much more niche than high-energy lighting options, I feel like having a thread where that light-intensity variable is somewhat controlled will give people much better ideas of what to do to improve. Long story short, people should compare to others growing with the same light intensity, not others growing with 4x as much light. So hopefully this thread provides that option.

So with those that have read all that, or maybe skimmed, I'd like to keep the discussion based around footprint and light intensities for now.

Light intensity = Light wattage / Growspace area

So if you have a 400 W light, in a 4x4 tent, then you would have a 16 sq. foot area. Divide the 400 by the 16, and you get a 25 w/sq-ft light intensity.

SO based on that formula, I think a great start would be for low-energy light users to post their light-intensity level and the yield per plant they've got. Also some comments about how many plants you fit into that footprint would be good, because yield per plant doesn't mean anything unless we know how many plants people are squeezing into these spaces.

I'll start.

I run 25 w/sq-ft in a 4x4 tent, 5-6 plants in 3 or 5 gallon pots, and get about 1-1.5 oz off each.


I think another great topic of discussion would be PAR and whether LEDs and CMH with more PAR per watt are better than just running a higher wattage HPS, but I'll wait to see how this is recieved in general. My guess is there's only a couple more of us out there.

Like this thread Fert. I admit i got 2x600 watt lights in one space but i also have my little 2x2 tent with a 250w hps and ive pulled more off one plant in there than i have per plant under my 600s. Could be cos i scrog in the little tent and make sure theres a full even canopy but the last time i only had 6" tops and i still pulled 3oz off it. this run should be much better

Spike rammed.jpg

• Bilbobudkin420
• Oct 27, 2018

 

[TorturedSoul]

Like this thread Fert. I admit i got 2x600 watt lights in one space but i also have my little 2x2 tent with a 250w hps and ive pulled more off one plant in there than i have per plant under my 600s.

62½ watts of HID light per square foot is nothing to sneeze at. Use that ratio for your 600s and could each be parked in a 3'x3' tent (or comparable space). Well, you'd gain some light, because the 600-watt bulb is more efficient than the 250-watt one, so a slightly larger space. But, yeah, that's enough even with a 250-watt HPS setup to grow some nice bud. With a smaller space like that, you can lower your light without sacrificing full coverage, so your intensity at the top of the canopy is still going to be pretty good.

 

[Ganjagrowergu]

I am at about 420w/square ft. 240w QBs, an old mars300 @140w, and a Chinese 1100k cob that pulls about 40w. This is in 32"x48"x60" tent, 39.6w/square ft. Using LEDs, I would never go over this light intensity. May actually knock a few watts off when I eventually replace the Mars.

Hoping to fill this damn canopy.

20190207_162311.jpg

• Ganjagrowergu
• Feb 7, 2019

Pic is a couple days old.

Thanks @TorturedSoul for reminding me this little thread was here. Wonder if this place will liven up.

 

[TorturedSoul]

I am at about 420w/square ft. 240w QBs, an old mars300 @140w, and a Chinese 1100k cob that pulls about 40w. This is in 32"x48"x60" tent, 39.6w/square ft. Using LEDs, I would never go over this light intensity. May actually knock a few watts off when I eventually replace the Mars.

Autoflowers? If so, you'll be running the lights at 1.5x (or more) length of time in flower, compared to people with photoperiodic strains.

 

[Ganjagrowergu]

Autoflowers? If so, you'll be running the lights at 1.5x (or more) length of time in flower, compared to people with photoperiodic strains.

Nah, 11/13 from seed. I have one SSDC in there, but other than that all regular photoperiod.

Here is today. Couple gals showed up since Thursday.

20190210_170534.jpg

• Ganjagrowergu
• Feb 10, 2019

Talking with wifey about pulling the mars and the cob, sticking with just the QBs in this tent. Shelf the cob and put the mars somewhere to grow some autos.

 

[Rifleman]

Forgot all about this thread. Oh well. Here's my current garden in a 4x4 under 350w of 3500K COB lights from CobShop.

20190207_090150.jpg

• Rifleman
• Feb 7, 2019

2-7-19
350w of 3500K COB

 

[Blew Hiller]

Forgot all about this thread. Oh well. Here's my current garden in a 4x4 under 350w of 3500K COB lights from CobShop.

20190207_090150.jpg

• Rifleman
• Feb 7, 2019

2-7-19
350w of 3500K COB

I see you have the reflectors on that COB...I was reading in another thread some discussion on the effectiveness of having reflectors...some were saying up to a 30% PAR gain to the plants WITH and some were saying not needed (and/or not as effective). Anyone got an opinion here? (I have them on my COBS why I'm asking).

 

[Rifleman]

I see you have the reflectors on that COB...I was reading in another thread some discussion on the effectiveness of having reflectors...some were saying up to a 30% PAR gain to the plants WITH and some were saying not needed (and/or not as effective). Anyone got an opinion here? (I have them on my COBS why I'm asking).

If you have a smartphone you can find apps to measure lux. I get about 3000 more lux with the reflectors. For what that's worth. Lights are 18 to 20" above canopy.

 

[nobodyhere]

Here is my grow in a 3x3 with about 450w total dimmed down to about an average of 360w or so...

IMG_0527.jpg

• nobodyhere
• Feb 5, 2019

Nagual on the right

IMG_0530.jpg

• nobodyhere
• Feb 5, 2019

tent

 

[TorturedSoul]

I see you have the reflectors on that COB...I was reading in another thread some discussion on the effectiveness of having reflectors...some were saying up to a 30% PAR gain to the plants WITH and some were saying not needed (and/or not as effective). Anyone got an opinion here? (I have them on my COBS why I'm asking).

Well, if you were to remove your reflectors, what would "get brighter, lol," - your plants, down below? Or your walls? I'm thinking reflectors are a good thing. Unless you happen to have the walls of your grow space festooned with plants, I suppose (maybe some herbs, leaf lettuce, the odd radish or two... ).

I was (somewhat unpleasantly) surprised when, after recently pulling a brand new light out of the box in order to make sure it was functional... I held it up to the wall and plugged it in, with the intention of estimating its useful footprint area/shape by observing things while I slowly pulled it away from the wall, keeping it as parallel to the wall as I could - as soon as I got it a fraction of an inch away, the entire wall was illuminated . The thing was screaming for a reflector. Or at least... something was doing a bit of screaming, at the time of this discovery. . . .

 

[Ganjagrowergu]

I pulled the mars300 out of the tent, centered my 2 QBs and cranked her up. So I am actually down to a hair less than 24w/sq ft. I will turn my 1100k cob (for added deep reds) back on when I get a new spot figured out to place the driver. That will put me at 26.4w/sq ft. I have no doubt that my buds will grow just fine.

I'm not much for keeping track of yields. Worried more about quality versus having a stash to last me months, since I grow year round.

 

[TheFertilizer]

I pulled the mars300 out of the tent, centered my 2 QBs and cranked her up. So I am actually down to a hair less than 24w/sq ft. I will turn my 1100k cob (for added deep reds) back on when I get a new spot figured out to place the driver. That will put me at 26.4w/sq ft. I have no doubt that my buds will grow just fine.

I'm not much for keeping track of yields. Worried more about quality versus having a stash to last me months, since I grow year round.

Yeah I am kind of in the opposite boat, I have to shut it down in the summer because the heat becomes too intense. I haven't ever really tried to sacrifice quality for quantity though, because then I just end up smoking more to get the same relief.

Here is my grow in a 3x3 with about 450w total dimmed down to about an average of 360w or so...

IMG_0527.jpg

• nobodyhere
• Feb 5, 2019

Nagual on the right

IMG_0530.jpg

• nobodyhere
• Feb 5, 2019

tent

Okay, now this has my attention. Do you have a journal I can read through? Those lights look a bit fancier than your run of the mill MH/HPS setup. Are they COBs?

A little lighting conundrum...

So my last cycle with Alaskan Thunderfuck, I had to put my T5 in my tent at the same time so I was getting 515 watts. (Ok I'm breaking 400 watts, but it's my thread!) But the reason why I did so was because my plants stretched off on me, and I knew I wouldn't be able to get light penetration to the lower growth so I hung the T5 on the side to light the lower branches. I still got about 258 grams of smokeable bud, so I figure that at pretty much exactly .5 GPW.

I wonder if I got them to not stretch out so much, say keep them at 2 ft max, if my CMH alone would have been able to accomplish the same yield. I was pretty impressed it did so well even so high up, but I could noticably tell it got much dimmer it got in the tent without the T5 too.

I still can't really add any more watts so I have been deliberating about running the T5 and CMH side by side. I usually use the T5 in a separate veg tent, attempting to cycle but never really got the hang of it. Seems like it might be better used in conjunction with the CMH, but I also think that the CMH would have done well too if I had trained the plants better.

IMG_20181230_123707837_HDR.jpg

• TheFertilizer
• Dec 30, 2018

 

[Ganjagrowergu]

Yeah I am kind of in the opposite boat, I have to shut it down in the summer because the heat becomes too intense. I haven't ever really tried to sacrifice quality for quantity though, because then I just end up smoking more to get the same relief.

Last summer I ran cfls and a mars300 in the same tent I use now. 500+ watts. The heat was unmanageable in my apartment but the damn sativas got huge. They thrived, loved the heat and the crappy but multi spectrum light. My place gets super hot mid summer.

Tent gets close to 100° regularly and hotter on bad days, even with quantum boards. To keep things going I will be growing and breeding Columbian Gold and Columbian Punto Rojo x Durban Bubble, possibly some Punto Rojo x Purple Zebra.

 

[TheFertilizer]

Last summer I ran cfls and a mars300 in the same tent I use now. 500+ watts. The heat was unmanageable in my apartment but the damn sativas got huge. They thrived, loved the heat and the crappy but multi spectrum light. My place gets super hot mid summer.

Tent gets close to 100° regularly and hotter on bad days, even with quantum boards. To keep things going I will be growing and breeding Columbian Gold and Columbian Punto Rojo x Durban Bubble, possibly some Punto Rojo x Purple Zebra.

Heh yeah I tried that one summer with some Panama x Malawi. I have some health problems which made the extra heat unbearable for me though. Maybe even a little life threatening sadly. I basically start throwing up non-stop for a week(or two) and get massively dehydrated. Nearly caused me a heart attack recently, so not willing to give up the AC to run the lights again.

 

[GrizzWald]

Touch under 400w... Grown from seed, two weeks 24-0 then flipped.. two other plants recently harvested. Another to go in tonight..

Grail.widow.. feels about 13 weeks, looks like another four to go...