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The Truth About LED Lights

Hey guys I am new to this forum and I want to let everyone know that I am in the business of selling LED lights, including LED grow lights. I have read all the complaints about people getting ripped off, especially by those 225 LED panels that sell for $20-50. The people that sell those panels are really misleading you because even though the panel has 225 diodes assembled in 15 rows by 15 columns, the diodes themselves are 0.06watts each for a total wattage of 13.8watts. You will not grow anything under 13.8watts.

LED lights have many cost saving advantages and are an extremely efficient way to grow indoors, but you have to get the right ones. Costs should be $2-3/watt and you should have a total of 300watts or more with either 1 light assembly or a combination of 90watt, 120watt and so on. If you get about 300-400watts of LED lighting, you can replace a 1000watt HPS or MH system. You will not need a ballast and you will not need to vent the heat from the light as LEDs emit a near zero heat signature.

The reason 300-400watts of LED lighting can replace 1000watts of HPS/MH is because LEDs grow lights are concentrated on the light spectrums needed for vegetating and flowering, the blues and reds. An HPS/MH light is white light and has ALL the light spectrums, so all the extra colors that the plant does not need are wasted electricity and heat. LED technology allows you to dissect white light into the wavelengths that are needed and only use those for photosynthesis.

Cheers,
Ethan
 

TorturedSoul

Member of the Month: May 2009, Oct 2010, Sept 2017
If you get about 300-400watts of LED lighting, you can replace a 1000watt HPS or MH system.
Interesting. Some growers here manage to attain 1.0 gram/watt or more. Do you have any documented grows in which the grower has harvested a kilogram of well-trimmed cured bud with 300-400 watts of LED lighting?

If so, I imagine that they would be pretty good advertising for your products and would help you sell a lot of lights.
 

SteveHman

Member of the Month: Aug 2011 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2011
It depends more on the area of your grow room and how many plants you have. A better ratio for LED's is about 2/3 that of HPS. So to replace a 250 HPS you would want atleast 150 watts of LED. This must be a high quality LED system tho. Perferably 3 watt LED's, with a wide spectra coverage.
I haven't done a side-by-side yet, but plan to in the near future (400w LED vs. 400w HPS), That will probably happen around the first of the year.

As far as a 200 watt LED replacing an HPS/MH of twice the power, I am always skeptical about those claims. In Magic Beans latest grow he compared a 200w LED against a 250w HPS. The LED won out on yield per watt and per foot, but not by a 2-to-1 margin. In my opinion an LED has a 20~30% advantage over a "conventional light" of similar wattage. So, if you are replacing a 600w HPS, I would go with no less than 400w of LED.
 

Hosebomber

New Member
So, if you are replacing a 600w HPS, I would go with no less than 400w of LED.
That is exactly 2/3 as I suggested...

The previous poster was wanting to replace a 250W HPS with a 90W UFO. I suggested no less than a 150. The exact 2/3 ratio would be 166.67W... Not sure if anyone makes on of that exact output but I do know there are some 150W systems out there and I believe there is/was a 180W.

Always research before you buy and use sponsers whenever possible.
 

DankSmoker

New Member
So I bought the 450 from Dormgrow about 3 weeks ago. I had a Master Kush veging under a 400w HPS and I am going to Bloom it with the Dormgrow 450w LED. I reason I did not veg with the LED is because the light only comes with a “dissatisfaction” warranty of two months(enough time to bloom). It does have a one year manufactures warranty(not bad but not great). I will start a blog soon and I hope the buy was worth it.
 
Dear DankSmoker,
Thank you for your order! Our Risk Free Trial is 90 days from your order date. If you are not satisfied with the light for any reason you can return it for a refund without any questions asked. We recommend that you add the 90 watt All Red UFO during flowering to get a flowering boost. If you have any questions about your light or best practices feel free to ask us on this forum or directly emailing us at info@dormgrow.com.
Cheers!
 
Hi SteveHman,
The 450watt light has an actual power draw of 320watts with an infrared chip from Optotech Corp. If you have any more questions feel free to ask us on this forum or directly emailing us at info@dormgrow.com
Cheers!
 

TorturedSoul

Member of the Month: May 2009, Oct 2010, Sept 2017
So why not call it a 320-watt light in the first place?
 

budbro

New Member
Kinda like HID's, it goes by the total watt of the bulb/bulbs. 1000w HID's may draw 1150 watts but they are still called 1000-watts due to the size of the bulb. LED manufaturers typically underdrive each bulb to extend their lifespans, thus drawing less power than what they are actually capable of.
 

TorturedSoul

Member of the Month: May 2009, Oct 2010, Sept 2017
Well, yeah, but they don't call a 1kW HID a "1406 watt HID" (450/320*1kW). Might sell a few extra lights, I guess, but it would annoy a large number of people.

As far as that goes, if you buy a 1kW HID, you have a reasonable expectation of being able to plug it in and send 1000 watts of light (and that's the point, after all), NOT 711 watts (320/450*1kW). Sure, if you look at the fine print you will see that your 1kW light consumes slightly more electricity in order to produce the amount of illumination that you paid for - but if the thing only output 711 watts, the fine print would say "We lied."

<SHRUGS> It's not just the one LED seller that pulls this stuff so I'm not trying to single it out so much as I'm just trying to understand why they do it. I only noticed the practice earlier this year when I was considering an LED purchase. I had enough electrical capacity to add an additional ~465 watt load and went looking on some sponsors' sites for a product in the 400- 450-watt range. I finally gave up and bought a 400-watt Lumatek. It works very well and with a >.97Pf, I am not drawing much more than the output. But I still feel vaguely disappointed from time to time - had I been able to find a correctly-labeled LED in my range (or close to it) I might have bought it, tried it, liked it, and become a convert.
 
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This has been a point of confusion for everyone. The reason the stated wattage and actual wattage differ is because the stated wattage is the sum of the number of diodes x max wattage per diode, for example 100 diodes x 3watt = 300watts. The actual power draw is always less with LED lights because each diode might draw anywhere from 1.8watts to 3watts depending on the wavelength and the amps of the particular diode. We recognize this anomaly with LED lights so we are in the process of updating our site to show both the stated wattage and actual wattage. Some LED companies do this and we feel that it is good practice to alleviate the confusion.
 

SteveHman

Member of the Month: Aug 2011 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2011
This has been a point of confusion for everyone. The reason the stated wattage and actual wattage differ is because the stated wattage is the sum of the number of diodes x max wattage per diode, for example 100 diodes x 3watt = 300watts. The actual power draw is always less with LED lights because each diode might draw anywhere from 1.8watts to 3watts depending on the wavelength and the amps of the particular diode. We recognize this anomaly with LED lights so we are in the process of updating our site to show both the stated wattage and actual wattage. Some LED companies do this and we feel that it is good practice to alleviate the confusion.
Agreed, many people buy on cost and if they see a 600 watt light listed for the same price as another company's 360 watt they tend to buy the "more powerful" light. In actuality the 600 unit draws the same as the 360 and has the same number of chips, but because one company didn't post full-disclosure the customer made an ill-informed decision. I think lights should be listed based on the actual draw and not on chip count. If you buy any other item that is labeled as a "XXXX" (horsepower, MPG, wattage, etc...), the item should deliver what the customer "expects" of the product.

If I dig back into my BSBM classes, I think this may fall into the category of deceptive business practices (even if unintended). I think listing the actual draw of each unit is a huge step in maintaining credibility. Thanks.


@budbro, as far as HPS lights using 1115 watts when they're listed as 1,000. Are you including the draw the ballast takes into that as well? Most lights are driven at their rated wattage, and it's not the bulb that determines that, it's the ballast. Also, if you do drive your bulb above their rated wattage you risk several things, the least of which is shortened life-span (the bulb's not yours).
 

Hosebomber

New Member
To add to what Dorm was referring to. LEDs are grouped by operational drive current. A one watt LED is driven at 350mA or .35 Amps. A 3 Watt LED is driven at 700-750mA (there were a small number of 2 watt single diode chips ran at 500mA). However, different color LEDs require a different supply voltage. The measurement that the power company charges by and that lights have been measured in is wattage or watts. The direct conversion is Watts = Voltage X Amp draw. Red and Orange LEDs require 1.8-2.8 Volts (generally speaking) and Greens and Blues require 2.5-3.5 Volts (generally speaking). So a 3 watt red led is really only pulling 1.35-2.1 Watts and the Blues and lower wavelength lights are pulling 1.87-2.6 Watts. There are reasons why the manufacturers of LEDs label them as 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 25, etc., watt LEDs that has to do with government regulations and energy ratings, these US standards have made it a global standard for labeling (the Chinese can't sell their 1.8 watt red led when the Americans are calling theirs of the same output and power draw a 3 watt led). You can over drive them as people have mentioned but it will shorten the lifespan and increase the heat output. There is also the issue of thermal runaway with LEDs too. When you over drive them and they start to overheat and it causes them to dim down leading to more power draw causing more heat until the diode burns itself out. It is common to under drive the LED slightly to increase the lifespan, reduce the heat output, reduce the risk of thermal runaway, and supply a more reliable product.
 

TorturedSoul

Member of the Month: May 2009, Oct 2010, Sept 2017
If I dig back into my BSBM classes, I think this may fall into the category of deceptive business practices (even if unintended).
I didn't want to come right out and say that, lol. But the thought crossed my mind as well.

I think listing the actual draw of each unit is a huge step in maintaining credibility. Thanks.
+1 :thumb:

This has been a point of confusion for everyone. The reason the stated wattage and actual wattage differ is because the stated wattage is the sum of the number of diodes x max wattage per diode, for example 100 diodes x 3watt = 300watts. The actual power draw is always less with LED lights because each diode might draw anywhere from 1.8watts to 3watts depending on the wavelength and the amps of the particular diode. We recognize this anomaly with LED lights so we are in the process of updating our site to show both the stated wattage and actual wattage. Some LED companies do this and we feel that it is good practice to alleviate the confusion.
I know my opinion doesn't matter any more than anyone else's, lol, but... Thank you. Decisions like that tend to raise the business a step or two "on my list" (so to speak) and that, coupled with your willingness to participate here in the forums make me that much more likely to mention you to my friends/family when they are at the upgrade (or about to take the initial plunge) stage. One of these days maybe I'll be able to purchase one of your products in the 225-400 (actual) watt range and give it a try myself.

I believe that repeat business is worth a lot (as is word-of-mouth advertising). Someone who doesn't do their homework might possibly lean toward a competitor's product that is called (just pulling it out of my hat) 600 watt LED Bomber over one that you call a 475-watt panel if the prices are comparable. But if the other's "Bomber" is only an actual 400-watt device and yours is an actual 475-watt, even if all else were equal then your product would end up outperforming the competition and (presumably) the purchaser would see journals showing how much better your product performed. Plus Joe Consumer realizes that your product is what it is stated to be, which is likely to net you a customer in the end (and then there's the fact that people here like Steve try to help educate people...). So the only thing, IMHO, that a clear and honest presentation of your products could possibly lose you in a long-term sense is the customer who doesn't do his homework (before OR after the purchase) and just looks at the product title & price - and those kind of customers tend to jump shop for no apparent reason anyway, lol, and tend to come away from whatever "deal" they make unsatisfied because they weren't realistic and tend to loudly b!tch (even more than I do, lofl).

It is common to under drive the LED slightly to increase the lifespan, reduce the heat output, reduce the risk of thermal runaway, and supply a more reliable product.
Also makes a product in which the cooling solution can be much more realistic.

Speaking of which, DormGrow.com (I thought the handle was kind of corny at first but, strangely, it has grown on me which is odd because I haven't seen the inside of a dormitory for decades): I do not know if these features are incorporated into your recangular LED panels. If not, might I suggest them?

  • NON-soldered power supplies (because anyone can swap one out - but not everyone can/will run a de-soldering wick/bulb and solder in a new PS).
  • A provision for at least a rudimentary filter on the fan intake.
  • A simple go/no-go sensor that will cut the power to the LEDs if/when a fan fails or drops below a certain RPM threshold (or a couple of temperature sensors, but that might be a little more expensive) so that if a fan fails it won't pooch the panel (things happen, lol).
  • IF your panels are of the type that have a glass across the entire bottom of the panel, make provision for removing it so the customer doesn't have to use a hammer (lol).
Wanted to say thanks again for increasing the satisfaction guarantee period on your products. It is much more realistic time period for a person that wishes to try your product. I assume that it will undoubtedly mean that you end up getting a return or two - that you will not be able to sell as a new product - because NO business hits 100% customer satisfaction, even someone selling 25-pound blocks of ice for a quarter in the desert, lol. But in the end it should do a lot for your reputation and your long-term sales figures (and net profits).

Just rambling.
 
:420: Hosebomber, TorturedSoul, SteveHman and anyone else I may have missed...

You guys truly add value to this forum not just for the members but for sponsors as well. You have a great deal of knowledge and we can all learn from you. Our company believes that our customers know how to make our business more successful so we are always listening and improving ourselves.

A big thumbs up to you guys for keeping this forum healthy, informative and relevant.

:thumb:
 

Ace203344

New Member
Hey guys I am new to this forum and I want to let everyone know that I am in the business of selling LED lights, including LED grow lights. I have read all the complaints about people getting ripped off, especially by those 225 LED panels that sell for $20-50. The people that sell those panels are really misleading you because even though the panel has 225 diodes assembled in 15 rows by 15 columns, the diodes themselves are 0.06watts each for a total wattage of 13.8watts. You will not grow anything under 13.8watts.

LED lights have many cost saving advantages and are an extremely efficient way to grow indoors, but you have to get the right ones. Costs should be $2-3/watt and you should have a total of 300watts or more with either 1 light assembly or a combination of 90watt, 120watt and so on. If you get about 300-400watts of LED lighting, you can replace a 1000watt HPS or MH system. You will not need a ballast and you will not need to vent the heat from the light as LEDs emit a near zero heat signature.

The reason 300-400watts of LED lighting can replace 1000watts of HPS/MH is because LEDs grow lights are concentrated on the light spectrums needed for vegetating and flowering, the blues and reds. An HPS/MH light is white light and has ALL the light spectrums, so all the extra colors that the plant does not need are wasted electricity and heat. LED technology allows you to dissect white light into the wavelengths that are needed and only use those for photosynthesis.

Cheers,
Ethan
but why the most grow lighing market is HPS/MH/CFL? just for more cheaper than LEDs or other reason?
 

Hosebomber

New Member
Ace, there are a number of reasons that most people still use HPS (and other lighting options). The first is the high initial cost of LEDs. Second is the new tech aspect. Many people still think that LEDs are the crap product that all the cheap producers where making 3-10 years back that did not have enough power or the right spectra. Now there are actual reputable companies that have done the research and tested their produce before putting it on the market. CFL's and T5/T12 lights will grow plants but there are not efficient enough for larger grows.

Sum it up, large cost up front and lack of knowledge.
 
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