Throwing in the towel on DWC: bennies

[StelioKontos]

Check your temp gauge and make sure its not off.

It was in the back of my mind that maybe the thermometer was off but i'ts quite cold in the room. Just to be sure, and because you mentioned it, I got a cheap glass tube type thermometer to check and sure enough its the same reading as the digi thermometer I've been using.

I had a thought about temps. I have 2 submersible pumps one in each bin circulating them as one unit. The water temps are fine, low in fact, but I bet inside the pump warms up, possibly creating an environment that could foster bad organisms. Now that I'm running h2o2 all the time it kills it as soon as its starts and the rot hasn't returned since. So I decided to expand my search and try to find a better single bin. I originally wanted just one bin but couldn't find it in my area. I did find one that is suitable, so I'm thinking of starting over. Why bother to continue with these slow growing injured plants when I could start again with a better setup and run h2o2 all the time thus probably never getting root rot in the first place?

So I will probably do that and I could take clones off these current plants. Would the fact that they had root rot effect them after cloning? I don't see that it would, it seems like that would get rid of the whole rot issue and it wouldn't be too much of a delay, the plant are small and so much time ect. has been wasted already.

Let me know what you guys think, thanks.

 

[broadleaf]

Not sure I would scrap the grow just yet unless they are autoflowers. If you have the ph at 5.8 -6.2, water temp 68f or lower, room temp 74-78f, aerated water, lights at the correct distance, your system should produce good weed. If you get the system corrected the plants will take off and grow. In my dwc system which is recirculating buckets and depending on the strain I get 1.5 - 2" growth a day in veg, some sativas will do 3".

What is the air temp of the room? If its below 72f then I suspect cold room and root rot caused them to be stunted. Check nighttime temps too. I run veg plants at 78-82f ambient temp and water temps at 68 until I switch to flower, then I lower them to 64f and 75-78f ambient.

Sounds like you have the root rot under control, if your get the environment under control your plants will love you for it.

 

[StelioKontos]

The air temps do go low then at night, 65f, and then 75f when lights on. There's not much of a heater in this room and I have been turning it up cause temps are low. So good to know that's to blame as well for the slow growth, I'll turn it up.

 

[spyro]

Like you, I started out my DWC experience with AN products. I even worked my way up to using the Grandmaster series. But the issue with those products for me was that I would most frequently have problems with nitrogen toxicity and calmag deficiency. I spoke to an AN rep on the phone one time about my issues, and he said that using calmag is not necessary with when you use AN 3 part base nutes. After a year of using AN and having those recurrent problems, I decided to switch to GH base nutrients and Cal Mag, and then of course Hydroguard. Since then, I now also use GH Floralicious Plus and Liquid Kool Bloom to supplement. Now, I live in the US, and I buy all my nutrients from eBay. The 3 part GH base nutrients aren't nearly as expensive as the AN 3 part, and after my first full grow of using them, I stopped using all AN products completely, with the exception of their pH down, which is super strong. My wallet has sure appreciated the switch, and my plants have never been happier and more problem-free. Now I order my Hydroguard by the gallon, and while it's still a bit pricey at $60 a gallon, it only requires 2ml per gallon so it lasts a long time, and, more importantly, you get roughly 3 to 4 times more Hydroguard than just a liter of Tarantula for about the same price. And if you're using Voodoo Juice along with Tarantula, it gets really expensive.

For almost 4 years now, I have used 5 gallon DWC buckets, which are always black and made from food grade plastic. I also insist on using 4 inch air stones and a big air pump, preferably ones that pump out 951 gph, and I have thankfully never had any issues with root rot. I studied up on it in case it ever happened, and I read that H2O2 is nothing more than a mere bandaid. It'll get rid of it for a few days at the most, but if you don't remove the affected roots from the plant, the root rot will just reoccur. DWC, in my opinion, is the best method in terms of yield since plants grow 3 times faster that way than in soil or coco. I recently harvested 3.2lb of SFV OG Kush from only 4 plants. That being said, I would at least try giving DWC another go before giving up on it. Add beneficial bacteria and PLENTY of air to a DARK reservoir, and your problems with root rot will be history.

 

[spyro]

And, I feel like the temperature drop at night would not contribute to root rot unless the environment was already affected somehow. When my room isn't sealed (which has been the case lately since I can't seem to regulate the temperatures in my grow space unless the door is left open) my temps are the same as yours and mine don't seem to mind it one bit.

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Ditto to what @spyro said

 

[StelioKontos]

Thanks for sharing your experience spyro,

The only reason I went with the more expensive AN PH perfect nutes is because I want to avoid the maintenance of adjusting the ph, Which sounds like its quite frequent with DWC especially near the end. So far the ph has been 'perfect' even at these low ppms and for well more than a week. I also add Z9 and this probably extends the time the ph is stable.

I had read about people having cal mag deficiencies with AN nutes and their solution was to use tap water cause those minerals are usually in tap water. If you RO filter your water you are removing the minerals so I am using tap water with the chlorine evaporated and why not add some cal mag if necessary? I would be willing to bet using other additives wouldn't wreck the ph. So next time around I'm probably going to try using just the base AN PH Perfect nutes and other, cheaper additives. Worst case, you would have to balance the ph manually.

To deal with the nitrogen toxicity, did you dial down the ppm? Or was it happening anyway at moderate levels?

I read that H2O2 is nothing more than a mere bandaid. It'll get rid of it for a few days at the most, but if you don't remove the affected roots from the plant, the root rot will just reoccur.

I read that too which is why I tried to go the route of beneficial organisms but things like Hydrogaurd aren't available in my area. Since running h2o2 continuously things seem fine though. There are still the damaged roots and there's a lot of brown. Trying to determine bad from good is a real grey area in my case. I'll remove the most obvious globs. I'm still toying with the idea of taking clones from them and starting over. There wouldn't be much delay in that as I'm basically at the beginning anyway. I dunno.

 

[spyro]

Thanks for sharing your experience spyro,

The only reason I went with the more expensive AN PH perfect nutes is because I want to avoid the maintenance of adjusting the ph, Which sounds like its quite frequent with DWC especially near the end. So far the ph has been 'perfect' even at these low ppms and for well more than a week. I also add Z9 and this probably extends the time the ph is stable.

I had read about people having cal mag deficiencies with AN nutes and their solution was to use tap water cause those minerals are usually in tap water. If you RO filter your water you are removing the minerals so I am using tap water with the chlorine evaporated and why not add some cal mag if necessary? I would be willing to bet using other additives wouldn't wreck the ph. So next time around I'm probably going to try using just the base AN PH Perfect nutes and other, cheaper additives. Worst case, you would have to balance the ph manually.

To deal with the nitrogen toxicity, did you dial down the ppm? Or was it happening anyway at moderate levels?



I read that too which is why I tried to go the route of beneficial organisms but things like Hydrogaurd aren't available in my area. Since running h2o2 continuously things seem fine though. There are still the damaged roots and there's a lot of brown. Trying to determine bad from good is a real grey area in my case. I'll remove the most obvious globs. I'm still toying with the idea of taking clones from them and starting over. There wouldn't be much delay in that as I'm basically at the beginning anyway. I dunno.

I totally agree with you on taking clones. Especially since the root rot seems to keep reappearing, despite your efforts.
I loved the pH Perfect technology, and it is AN's strongest point. I used the 3-part base confidently as a beginner. I was even a little skeptical at first. But after a few weeks of checking the ph and getting consistent readings, it got to a point where I knew I didn't have to. No kidding, with well water my pH landed on 5.8 every time. Amazing. I just kept having deficiency or toxicity issues, and the price was quite a bit more than I was willing to pay. I gave GH a try, and I swear, my pH usually lands between 5.9 and 6.2. I was unaware that GH products also have buffers that will adjust your pH. Only thing is I have to spot check. But my plants have never looked better. because of the pH perfect technology, I have been curious, however, about what it would be like to use the Connoisseur line. perhaps one day when the price isn't such an issue.

 

[spyro]

To deal with the nitrogen toxicity, did you dial down the ppm? Or was it happening anyway at moderate levels?

I forgot to answer this part...

Yes I even dialed it all back from 1/2 to 1/4 strength. Still kept getting claw like leaves. But then I used way more nutrients than just the three-part after getting the hang of it. I got to a point where I was using the entire Grandmaster series. It just got to where I wondered if I would get the same results from another brand, and that was when I decided to try GH. And even though there are many GH supplemental nutrients, I have found that its way cheaper and less time consuming to keep it simple. And who knows, maybe using The Grandmaster line was a bit too much. But now I'm so used to GH prices that I'm spoiled.

 

[Rifleman]

I forgot to answer this part...

Yes I even dialed it all back from 1/2 to 1/4 strength. Still kept getting claw like leaves. But then I used way more nutrients than just the three-part after getting the hang of it. I got to a point where I was using the entire Grandmaster series. It just got to where I wondered if I would get the same results from another brand, and that was when I decided to try GH. And even though there are many GH supplemental nutrients, I have found that its way cheaper and less time consuming to keep it simple. And who knows, maybe using The Grandmaster line was a bit too much. But now I'm so used to GH prices that I'm spoiled.

I've been on the pH Perfect train for almost 5 years. Ended up with the entire grand master line up and began wondering what the real world difference was between ALL of it, and just the m,g,b. That led to a couple of side by side grows where two plants were given everything and two just given the base nutrients. I did this under a 600w HPS, and a Mars II 1200w using Dark Devil Autos.

I now buy my m,g,b in gallon bottles, cal-mag in a quart, a couple of beneficial bacteria, and nothing else.

20190225_123224.jpg

• Rifleman
• Feb 25, 2019

2-25-19
4x4
350w 3500K COB

 

[StelioKontos]

So spyro, the nitrogen toxicity was happening when you where using the grand master line?

Rifleman, are the 2 plants on the right the ones that had the additives? People often debate weather additives are worth it, especially AN's expensive ones. Could you give us more detail on the differences?

About the cloning and starting over; I'm at the point where I may run into warm weather by the end of flower and may have temp issues. So instead of taking a small clone what if I where to basically take the majority of the plant as a clone? Basically just cut the bottom off. I know large clones can be taken but I've never seen most of the plant taken as a clone. Theoretically it should work the same, no?

 

[Rifleman]

Sorry, the photo is my current grow with just the pH Perfect m,g,b. The comparison grows were a couple of years ago. There was no difference in harvest size, shape, texture, taste, or effect.

I know some can say well the grower has a lot to do with it, and maybe I'm not the grower I think I am. There might be some truth in that, IDK, I don't have anyone local that grows that I could judge myself against. What I am sure of though is my ability to grow cannabis for smoking and it's effects on me. I now save my money for other things.

 

[spyro]

So spyro, the nitrogen toxicity was happening when you where using the grand master line?

Rifleman, are the 2 plants on the right the ones that had the additives? People often debate weather additives are worth it, especially AN's expensive ones. Could you give us more detail on the differences?

About the cloning and starting over; I'm at the point where I may run into warm weather by the end of flower and may have temp issues. So instead of taking a small clone what if I where to basically take the majority of the plant as a clone? Basically just cut the bottom off. I know large clones can be taken but I've never seen most of the plant taken as a clone. Theoretically it should work the same, no?

Yes, that's right. 13 supplements and the 3 part base. I bought the base nutes by the 4L jugs and the rest by the liter. The price of Bud Factor X was the worst. And even after all that, I could never get it dialed in. I did 4 whole grows with that bundle before deciding that maybe I should simplify things a bit. At the time, I noticed some amazing photos of these beautiful buds by someone using only GH 3 part, cal mag, and Hydroguard. I did a price comparison and figured that, if I couldn't get the results I wanted with GH, at least I didn't pay as much for those as I did for AN. After just one grow, which went without incident, I was sold. And all that's not to say that I think GH is better than AN. But I was literally spending three times as much money as I did with the GH combo. I was also spending a lot more time than I realized on water changes.

 

[StelioKontos]

Yes, that's right. 13 supplements and the 3 part base.

Holy moly that must have cost a lot. I didn't plan on using more than just the hobbyist line, voodoo juice alone was pricey enough. Next time around I'm going to use the base AN for the ph perfect, h2o2, z9 and something for roots.

Thanks for your input guys.
As for the cloning I think I'm just gonna let them go as is. There has been significant growth lately.

 

[IslandGrow420]

hydroguard!

 

[growingathome]

I just started DWC and I decided to use liquid orca.

 

[StelioKontos]

growingathome, I believe orca is fungus, you should probably also use hydrogaurd as well like IslandGrow420 and many others have mentioned. Once again I can't get it in my area. There are probably other things you should be using as well if you're going to go the route of beneficial organisms but I cant't help you there.

It's been a while since I last posted so I figured I'll give an update.
I've been running 4ml per gal of 29% h2o2 added every 3 days. If 4 days goes by, or less h2o2 is added the root rot returns 100% of the time.
The plants seem to be growing ok even though they have been through more than 5 attacks of root rot. They do seem to be a sort of lime green color and some of leaves look wilted and sort of 'dry' for lack of a better word. They seem to grow quite rapidly after a ppm increase and then slow down until I up the ppm again. I suppose they are having a hard time up taking nutes and water through their damaged roots but growth has been decent anyway.

To add to my problems there is going to be a scheduled power outage in my neighborhood for repairs from a wind storm. The power went out from that storm but only for an hour and it was during the dark period. The outage may last up to 5 hours in the middle of the night so I'm going to flip them during that time. Luckily this is around the time I was going to flip them anyway as my scrog screen is getting pretty full.

This would be useful to anyone who is growing in dwc when a power outage occurs:

So that's fine regarding light but the air pump can't be off for 5 hours, right? So luckily I have a Stanley jump start battery /compressor unit that also has usb and cig lighter power outlets and I got my self an inverter to plug into the cig lighter that converts the power to normal wall outlet power. I ran a 9.5 watt lamp from it to see how long it would last and it ran it for about 6 hours and my air pump is 6 watts so it should be fine. I could also run a cord to my car for more battery and even start the car if need be. So even of you don't have a portable battery you could use your vehicle as a generator and an inverter to run your air pump indefinitely, or until you run out of gas, lol. FYI the inverter was cheap $25 at Canadian Tire, the jumper battery is much more, over $100, I wouldn't buy it just for this as you could use your car.
I did also get some emergency lights if an outage happens during the time when the lights are on. I found these led trouble lights at the dollar store ($4 each), battery operated and surprisingly bright. Obviously these are no where near enough lumens to grow with but they should keep photosynthesis going and prevent the plants from freaking out. A very similar led with less individual leds advertised 900 lumens on the package, probably bs.

Here's some pics:

All set for power outages


If you look a the leaf at the bottom of this pic you can see it's a bit wrinkly. This is the dryness I was referring to.


Screen is getting pretty full. I have never scrogged before so it's kind of random branch placement. I built that screen from 1/2 " electrical conduit, self tap screws and string line. Not the cheapest way but I got the materials at work for free and its very strong.


It needs some more defoliation. I went light on that cause I'm not experienced with that while scrogging either. I will do another round of defoliation after the flip.

 

[LiberalThinker]

@StelioKontos One thing I've just thought of that might help is to drop a small fish tank water pump in the bottom on one end of the tank with a short length of pipe attached with the end at the other end of the tank. This will keep the water moving around so the micro-organisms can't settle and cause problems... think of how a pond gets stagnant... no movement and not enough oxygen and too warm. The warmer your tank is, the more air you are going to have pump through it. So, I would be looking at getting more bubbles going and getting your water moving around in the tank. This will help the good bacteria as well. The other thing that might not help is putting your plants in the tank too early before the roots have become numerous enough.

 

[StelioKontos]

Thanks Yellow Belly. There already are 2 water pumps, one in each rez pumping into the other rez so there is quite a lot of circulation in the rez's.

I do think that I should get a bigger air pump, but that will have to wait for next time. Things have been stable now since running h2o2 constantly and they have grown like crazy, too much actually. I should have flipped them sooner but that power outage limited me. The scrog net was filled well before the flowering stretch ended and I had to let them grow upward. Then the foliage became so dense the RH became well over 60% so I did a couple big trims and added a dehumidifier to the system. It's going good now though. I'll put some pics up soon.

 

[spyro]

so, during this last grow I had, I did a little experimenting with different size air pumps. 6 SFV OG Kush were put on a 951 GPH air pump and 6 God's gift were put on a 1744 GPH pump. Now I realize that these are two different strains but they are relatives of each other, and I started them both at the same time and grew them both the same way. I'm kind of surprised at the results. It turns out that the root balls of the ogk ended up covering their air stone at around week 5 of flowering. Two of the buckets kind of worried me because I could no longer see bubbles rising to the top. The root balls completely surrounded the stones, to the point where I felt it was necessary to cut the tubing and putting another air stone in their buckets just to be on the safe side. The root balls of the God's Gift did cover the air stones, but the water was still noticeably being aerated efficiently. Not only that, but the root balls of the God's Gift were larger in size, and that made it to where there was a noticeable difference in the plant's growth overall. So my experiment brought two important details to my attention. First, the more air available to the roots for them to utilize, the healthier the roots remain, thus promoting plant growth. Second, running multiple buckets on one air pump can be risky unless you reposition your air stones regularly. My space is a bit too tight for 12 plants, and it was a chore just to change the water. repositioning the air stones really didn't seem that important. Also, this was the first time I'd ever had 6 buckets connected to one 951 GPH air pump. I usually just have no more than 4 buckets to one pump. I'm shocked that the roots swallowed the air stones and encased the bubbles so tightly that none rose to the top. It's a wonder that those two particular plants didn't develop root rot. Truthfully, I will probably never attempt to put 12 plants in that space again, but I will be upgrading all of my air pumps as soon as possible. I'm going to redo this experiment with 10 of the same strain this next time, thin mint Girl Scout cookies. A few pics of the current results to follow.