Undercurrent hydro setup

[Stltoed]

That's the opposite of what I said mate.
Read it again

"Ph should drop in bloom" "Ph should always be on the drop in bloom"? Your words, Maybe I misunderstood... it sounds like your recommending Ph should go lower in flower. To which I was saying anything lower than 6.0 basically makes Phosphorous unavailable

 

[Barney86]

I've honestly never seen a Ph issue with hydroton. I will say it works very well, its cheap and will last you a lifetime. I just boil it for a bit and it's good to go. Rock wool needs to be Ph-ed. But, rockwool is the lapdog of Satanand needs to be avoided. Use Rapid Rooters and you'll never use anything else. If you are cloning you can take a clone with bare roots and place it in the Hydroton. You need to ensure that the roots are low in the cup and able to capitalize on the moistness at the bottom of the cup.

On the air pump. You can use a much larger air pump in my opinion. The nutrients will precipitate out of solution? Where does it go?

Rockwool kicks ass mate !
Profile pic was grown in a 4 inch rockwool balanced very precariously on a shelf of nothing but fresh air.
Fed maybe 500 litres a day or so from an £8, 24/7 recirc pump in a 20 litre reservoir underneath the shelf.
I did have a pathetic little 2w airstone in it to protect the recirc pump from the roots but that was it.
Shouldnt be so quick to judge mate.

 

[Barney86]

"Ph should drop in bloom" "Ph should always be on the drop in bloom"? Your words, Maybe I misunderstood... it sounds like your recommending Ph should go lower in flower. To which I was saying anything lower than 6.0 basically makes Phosphorous unavailable

Ahh... Theres the crossed wire mate lol.

I'm not saying to drop the pH.
I'm saying the pH should naturally drop by itself.
This is why a lot of companies have their "pH up" labelled as "pH bloom" .

Providing you're feeding correctly,
The pH of the media will naturally drop during bloom due to secretions from the roots.
To combat this effect and keep everything in line, you should be feeding at 6.3-6.5.
The pH at the root zone drops as the plant feeds and then you bring it back up when you feed the plant
Keeps it in the swing of things so to speak

 

[Stltoed]

Rockwool kicks ass mate !
Profile pic was grown in a 4 inch rockwool balanced very precariously on a shelf of nothing but fresh air.
Fed maybe 500 litres a day or so from an £8, 24/7 recirc pump in a 20 litre reservoir underneath the shelf.
I did have a pathetic little 2w airstone in it to protect the recirc pump from the roots but that was it.
Shouldnt be so quick to judge mate.

But that's what hes asking us to do. Give an opinion based our experiences. Our history in JUDGING what works and what doesnt. I'm glad Rockwool works for you, it obviously works for lots of people, but in my honest opinion Rockwool has a learning curve. It has a hard time keeping Ph and more importantly it holds too much water.

I'm not trying to throw stones here. Just trying to help this cat out. I'm just giving my opinion. Mate

 

[Stltoed]

Ahh... Theres the crossed wire mate lol.

I'm not saying to drop the pH.
I'm saying the pH should naturally drop by itself.
This is why a lot of companies have their "pH up" labelled as "pH bloom" .

Providing you're feeding correctly,
The pH of the media will naturally drop during bloom due to secretions from the roots.
To combat this effect and keep everything in line, you should be feeding at 6.3-6.5.
The pH at the root zone drops as the plant feeds and then you bring it back up when you feed the plant
Keeps it in the swing of things so to speak

Ok, I've personally never seen this in hydro, but I'll take your word for it

 

[Barney86]

Ok, I've personally never seen this in hydro, but I'll take your word for it

It's because you're nutes are too strong mate.
If your ppm/EC is rising even the slightest as the plant feeds then your nutes are too strong.
It should always be dropping .
How else would you know the plant was absorbing nutes properly?
If the number is rising then the solution is getting stronger.
That can only mean that the plant can't absorb what's in the mix.
It's taking water but not the nutes.
Roots are smart mate, they pick and choose what they want. When they want it.
If your pH isn't dropping in bloom then you're doing something wrong.

You don't have to take my word for it though mate.
Plenty companies are now calling their pH up "pH bloom" as I've pointed out already.

If the pH isn't supposed to drop during bloom then why would nute companies call the ph up "pH bloom" ??

And the pH down gets labelled as "pH veg" because surprise surprise , the pH should naturally be rising so you'll need to bring it back down .

Bet yours drops during veg though because your nutes are too strong. Then rises during bloom

 

[Stltoed]

It's because you're nutes are too strong mate.
If your ppm/EC is rising even the slightest as the plant feeds then your nutes are too strong.
It should always be dropping .
How else would you know the plant was absorbing nutes properly?
If the number is rising then the solution is getting stronger.
That can only mean that the plant can't absorb what's in the mix.
It's taking water but not the nutes.
Roots are smart mate, they pick and choose what they want. When they want it.
If your pH isn't dropping in bloom then you're doing something wrong.

You don't have to take my word for it though mate.
Plenty companies are now calling their pH up "pH bloom" as I've pointed out already.

If the pH isn't supposed to drop during bloom then why would nute companies call the ph up "pH bloom" ??

And the pH down gets labelled as "pH veg" because surprise surprise , the pH should naturally be rising so you'll need to bring it back down .

Bet yours drops during veg though because your nutes are too strong. Then rises during bloom

But my PPM doesnt doesnt rise.

 

[Barney86]

But that's what hes asking us to do. Give an opinion based our experiences. Our history in JUDGING what works and what doesnt. I'm glad Rockwool works for you, it obviously works for lots of people, but in my honest opinion Rockwool has a learning curve. It has a hard time keeping Ph and more importantly it holds too much water.

I'm not trying to throw stones here. Just trying to help this cat out. I'm just giving my opinion. Mate

Clean them first.
Feed roughly 200ppm
pH 5.5
Don't soak them.
Don't let them get dry.
Use a spray bottle to coax the roots through..

Do that for 2 weeks and it's ready to be plugged into any media known to man.
Once my 4" cubes are rooted up after 2 weeks I run around 10L through them at a time.
Nothing to do with the amount of water they hold buddy. If you just give them a light feed and don't drown them then you'll get a root structure than can produce things that defy the laws of physics.

No learning curve mate. That's it.

Stick it in Coco, dwc, NFT, Ebb & Flow high pressure aeroponics, theyre all basically the same thing. Same rules anyway.
feed 500ppm every day untill it's ready to finish up.
Done.

Don't need science and all the techno jargon, that's all there is to it really.

 

[Barney86]

But my PPM doesnt doesnt rise.

Well if it was dropping you would have said it's dropping and proved me wrong.
That means your not rising or falling.
Referred to as being static.
That means the plant isn't feeding propperly because something is out of balance.
Nothing should ever be perfectly stable in a reservoir

 

[Stltoed]

Clean them first.
Feed roughly 200ppm
pH 5.5
Don't soak them.
Don't let them get dry.
Use a spray bottle to coax the roots through..

Do that for 2 weeks and it's ready to be plugged into any media known to man.
Once my 4" cubes are rooted up after 2 weeks I run around 10L through them at a time.
Nothing to do with the amount of water they hold buddy. If you just give them a light feed and don't drown them then you'll get a root structure than can produce things that defy the laws of physics.

No learning curve mate. That's it.

Stick it in Coco, dwc, NFT, Ebb & Flow high pressure aeroponics, theyre all basically the same thing. Same rules anyway.
feed 500ppm every day untill it's ready to finish up.
Done.

Don't need science and all the techno jargon, that's all there is to it really.

As I said it can be done. I used it for years, but, again I'm giving him the easiest method I know of. No Ph. No chance of drowning roots etc. Maybe you should try rapid rooters

 

[Stltoed]

Well if it was dropping you would have said it's dropping and proved me wrong.
That means your not rising or falling.
Referred to as being static.
That means the plant isn't feeding propperly because something is out of balance.
Nothing should ever be perfectly stable in a reservoir

Honestly I wouldnt read too much into what I said in that post.

 

[No Pain]

I've honestly never seen a Ph issue with hydroton. I will say it works very well, its cheap and will last you a lifetime. I just boil it for a bit and it's good to go. Rock wool needs to be Ph-ed. But, rockwool is the lapdog of Satanand needs to be avoided. Use Rapid Rooters and you'll never use anything else. If you are cloning you can take a clone with bare roots and place it in the Hydroton. You need to ensure that the roots are low in the cup and able to capitalize on the moistness at the bottom of the cup.

On the air pump. You can use a much larger air pump in my opinion. The nutrients will precipitate out of solution? Where does it go?

You wont see a ph drop with hydroton ..but you will with grow stones if you don't prep them correctly .

as far as where the nutrients go ..they stick to the sides of the tubs ..roll around in clumps in the solution ...bottom line is they become unavailable . So with that said with the size stones I recommended I wouldn't go over the lpm of air per gallon that I suggested .

 

[Stltoed]

You wont see a ph drop with hydroton ..but you will with grow stones if you don't prep them correctly .

as far as where the nutrients go ..they stick to the sides of the tubs ..roll around in clumps in the solution ...bottom line is they become unavailable . So with that said with the size stones I recommended I wouldn't go over the lpm of air per gallon that I suggested .

 

[No Pain]

Ok, I've personally never seen this in hydro, but I'll take your word for it

as Barney said it will drop in bloom especially late in bloom because of what the roots are taking up and giving off in the solution .
what ec/tds/ppm do you run . I max out at around 500 ppm on a 500 scale ..if I go over that I start to cook my plants . Me and Barney touched base on this on the first page when talking about the charts I posted.

 

[Stltoed]

You wont see a ph drop with hydroton ..but you will with grow stones if you don't prep them correctly .

as far as where the nutrients go ..they stick to the sides of the tubs ..roll around in clumps in the solution ...bottom line is they become unavailable . So with that said with the size stones I recommended I wouldn't go over the lpm of air per gallon that I suggested .

I'm using an 80 liter pump with with two 12 inch defusers one in each tub. Waaaaay too much air by most opinions. But please refer to the pictures. I understand that this is a lot more than one will need to add desolved O2 to the water, but the are other beneficial actions. Pathogens are much harder to get a foot hold. The nutrients propagate through the rootball easier. And the water splashing at the surface is much more aggressive this helps seedlings and the gap between water and pot I havent had any issues with nutrients coming out of solution. No sand at the bottom, or clumps. I also have a 4 inch defuser in the res.

I like a lot of air personally

 

[Stltoed]

as Barney said it will drop in bloom especially late in bloom because of what the roots are taking up and giving off in the solution .
what ec/tds/ppm do you run . I max out at around 500 ppm on a 500 scale ..if I go over that I start to cook my plants . Me and Barney touched base on this on the first page when talking about the charts I posted.

Yeah I saw that. All I'm saying is I havent seen a drop in bloom. I suppose in very late bloom it's possible since phosphorus isnt as important. That makes sence I guess, I just havent seen it.

My system is at 1200 right now
With a Hanna Groline meter. No burn.

 

[No Pain]

I'm using an 80 liter pump with with two 12 inch defusers one in each tub. Waaaaay too much air by most opinions. But please refer to the pictures. I understand that this is a lot more than one will need to add desolved O2 to the water, but the are other beneficial actions. Pathogens are much harder to get a foot hold. The nutrients propagate through the rootball easier. And the water splashing at the surface is much more aggressive this helps seedlings and the gap between water and pot I havent had any issues with nutrients coming out of solution. No sand at the bottom, or clumps. I also have a 4 inch defuser in the res.

I like a lot of air personally

don't get me wrong im all about pushing the envelope .when it comes to air delivery not all things are created equal . I have a 12"duffuser in my res/epicenter and in the modules I have made and installed soaker hose that has a burst pressure of 25psi all connected to a et120 through 3/4 line& 1 inch piping with 3/8 feeder hoses to the diffusers and rings. The diffuser is just an agitator (big bubble) the soaker hoses deliver micro bubbles (I have a diy on them in our diy section if you would like to see them) which are much more efficient at delivering dissolved oxygen and breaking the water tension in the system . I can tell you that I would not have the same level of aeration in the system if I had round diffusers in the system , it would be less as they area lot more restrictive(they need a large amout of pressure before you even get a bubble out of them ) and do not give you micro bubbles that can easy provide dissolved oxygen.

Its obvious that you get results with the system you have built . whats your total system volume 20-25 gallons ? at 25 that puts an 80 liter per minute air pump to 3.2 liters per minute of air . Now you have to consider how restrictive/max flow rate your diffusers are/have (stone and rubber membrane have different flow rates ) . It looks like you have good size hose running to them ( I also so the back flow valves , awesome ! ..at least I think that's what it was in the pic) . All in all you may find by calculating everything that you are closer to that 2 liters per minute than you think . If you would like to make your system more efficient I would recommend giving those diy rings a run they aren't expensive to make ...just know with that increased efficiency you will have to cut your ec in half ..I know it sounds crazy but its not .

long story shorter ...I went from the same pump and medium size airstones with smaller feed lines maxing out my feed around 900 and with the rings and modified air manifold to a feed of 500 starting to burn the tips and slightly travel down the leaves edge. So just because I had a 120 liter pump per minute pump connected didn't mean that I was getting 100% of its airflow into my system and its obvious that I wasn't.

 

[No Pain]

Yeah I saw that. All I'm saying is I havent seen a drop in bloom. I suppose in very late bloom it's possible since phosphorus isnt as important. That makes sence I guess, I just havent seen it.

My system is at 1200 right now
With a Hanna Groline meter. No burn.

thank you . I don't feel like you are getting all the air your pump is putting out into your system having run that strong of feed and not seeing any burn . I say that because of what I just wrote and having dabbled with aeration projects from my highpressure areo to my rdwc that im playing with now and with that pump a res and a two module system you could easily run half as much and get burn with everthing running more efficient . Again what you built is working ..no doubt what so ever in my mind . With running that high of an ec like barney said it could be the reason you don't see a drop like we do . mine are in the last weeks of flower and you are going to laugh and go wtf but my ppm is 200 on a 500 scale right now and im getting ready to drop it down to 150 today as they aren't taking up a whole lot of feed in these later stages and these are 4' tall from the bucket and fill a 5x7 scrogg style netting .

 

[Stltoed]

don't get me wrong im all about pushing the envelope .when it comes to air delivery not all things are created equal . I have a 12"duffuser in my res/epicenter and in the modules I have made and installed soaker hose that has a burst pressure of 25psi all connected to a et120 through 3/4 line& 1 inch piping with 3/8 feeder hoses to the diffusers and rings. The diffuser is just an agitator (big bubble) the soaker hoses deliver micro bubbles (I have a diy on them in our diy section if you would like to see them) which are much more efficient at delivering dissolved oxygen and breaking the water tension in the system . I can tell you that I would not have the same level of aeration in the system if I had round diffusers in the system , it would be less as they area lot more restrictive(they need a large amout of pressure before you even get a bubble out of them ) and do not give you micro bubbles that can easy provide dissolved oxygen.

Its obvious that you get results with the system you have built . whats your total system volume 20-25 gallons ? at 25 that puts an 80 liter per minute air pump to 3.2 liters per minute of air . Now you have to consider how restrictive/max flow rate your diffusers are/have (stone and rubber membrane have different flow rates ) . It looks like you have good size hose running to them ( I also so the back flow valves , awesome ! ..at least I think that's what it was in the pic) . All in all you may find by calculating everything that you are closer to that 2 liters per minute than you think . If you would like to make your system more efficient I would recommend giving those diy rings a run they aren't expensive to make ...just know with that increased efficiency you will have to cut your ec in half ..I know it sounds crazy but its not .

long story shorter ...I went from the same pump and medium size airstones with smaller feed lines maxing out my feed around 900 and with the rings and modified air manifold to a feed of 500 starting to burn the tips and slightly travel down the leaves edge. So just because I had a 120 liter pump per minute pump connected didn't mean that I was getting 100% of its airflow into my system and its obvious that I wasn't.

I'd like to see your thread on your air delivery. My 12 inch defusers arent made from stone material. It's made of bonded rubber particles like your hose. And flows 35gpm My system is about 50 gallons. I need to get backflow valves. I gotta rebuild my pump anyway.

 

[Stltoed]

thank you . I don't feel like you are getting all the air your pump is putting out into your system having run that strong of feed and not seeing any burn . I say that because of what I just wrote and having dabbled with aeration projects from my highpressure areo to my rdwc that im playing with now and with that pump a res and a two module system you could easily run half as much and get burn with everthing running more efficient . Again what you built is working ..no doubt what so ever in my mind . With running that high of an ec like barney said it could be the reason you don't see a drop like we do . mine are in the last weeks of flower and you are going to laugh and go wtf but my ppm is 200 on a 500 scale right now and im getting ready to drop it down to 150 today as they aren't taking up a whole lot of feed in these later stages and these are 4' tall from the bucket and fill a 5x7 scrogg style netting .

I'm not worried worried about the air coming out of my pump. Last two weeks are a different story. I'm using very light nutes and pushing a bud hardener to finish