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Vero Reflector Usage: Please Read

TimberGrowLights

420 Sponsor
Hello 420 Magazine Forum Members,

I wanted to let you know about a potential issue in operating Vero lights with reflectors. It has been brought to our attention by a few Vero owners that there may be issues related to possible melting of the LEDIL Angelina polycarbonate reflector and holder.

Recent Integrated sphere testing of the Vero COBs showed a loss of almost 10% in PAR wattage using the reflectors vs not. Additionally, and most importantly, they showed a significant heat build up near the COB surface, which is exacerbated by the reflector.

You are able to run the light closer to the canopy with even PAR spread. The light emits at a roughly 130° angle from the COB surface as opposed to 90° with the reflectors.

As a result, we made a change to the design, ceasing offering the reflectors going forward. I have been recommending to customers to remove both the reflectors and holders. Affected customers should contact us immediately - we will send you shorter, 6mm screws, to use in place of the longer screws holding the reflector holders in place.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions and/or concerns.

And most importantly, if you own a COB grow light or know a friend who does, please check your optics. As a general rule we recommend periodic checks of the light (electrical connections, COB surface cleanliness, potential issues) to ensure efficient, and safe, operation.

Have a good day.

Best Regards,
Dan
 

Blew Hiller

Well-Known Member
And most importantly, if you own a COB grow light or know a friend who does, please check your optics. As a general rule we recommend periodic checks of the light (electrical connections, COB surface cleanliness, potential issues) to ensure efficient, and safe, operation.
It would be super helpful if you could add a few photos of good/bad light issues...not really sure what I am checking on my optics? Does any of this reflector occur with the Citizen COBS? Also, just checked on your site and you only have Vero's...is that an inventory issue?

:thanks:
 

SweetSue

Member of the Year: 2015 & 2016 - Member of the Month: Mar 2015, Sept 2016 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2017 - Creme de la Creme Photos: Dec 2016

TorturedSoul

Member of the Month: May 2009, Oct 2010, Sept 2017
This problem appears to be confined to the Cree COBs
Actually, Dan's notice seems to specifically be about Vero COBs (he mentioned the brand once in the thread title and three times in the text of his post). But he did also generalize in his suggestions/concerns regarding COB-based lighting in general, and as your post illustrates (with its mention of CREE COBs and pictures of melted plastic components that had been installed onto them), this is probably more a general issue than a brand-specific one.

All of these things produce heat, regardless of the brand. Plastic melts. But I guess it's cheaper than metal ;) . Perhaps whoever was responsible for choosing the components didn't do their homework, or maybe the presumed operating temperatures of the COBs were low enough to be below the minimum required to soften, distort, degrade / make brittle, melt, or otherwise damage the reflectors. Maybe the person did the research, found that the stated operating temperature of the COBs fell within the allowable temperature for the plastic reflectors, but in the real world, in enclosed grow spaces, operating 12+ hours at a time... those temperatures just ended up getting exceeded because either the COBs produced more heat than expected or the cooling mechanisms employed (be they active or passive) weren't capable of removing that heat fast enough. Which could make it a "borderline issue," so to speak. Everything is fine... when everything is fine, lol, but increased temperatures in the grow space or even a dirty heatsink (or fan, if used) move things into the red-zone.

I don't know which one of these possibilities are the case here, but I'm going to assume that Dan, et al did their due diligence on this one. If this had been an obvious issue, it would surely have presented itself much sooner, considering the number of products in use today. I sometimes gripe about certain companies using their customers as involuntary beta-testers (Microsoft, Tesla, etc.) - but the truth is, customers will always manage to find weaknesses that squeak past internal testing, regardless of how much testing is performed. Do all the testing on an electronically-shifted vehicle transmission you want, it'll be some drunken clown at 3:30am who discovers that, yes, you can defeat that "cannot be shifted into Park at 70MPH" safety if you try turning the ignition key off in the middle of the process because he was inebriated enough to think he was at the end of his journey :rolleyes: .

Thank you, Dan at @TimberGrowLights , for posting this notice/warning. And thank you for wording it the way you did. If this had been 100% "Vero Issue" language, I might not have stopped to think about the one grow light device I have that contains (six) COBs in it. Forewarned is forearmed, as they say, and now I know what to look for (and that I do need to look, "from time to time").
 

TorturedSoul

Member of the Month: May 2009, Oct 2010, Sept 2017
just checked on your site and you only have Vero's...is that an inventory issue?
States on their FAQ page that Vero is the only brand of COB that they sell, but that this is because of the brand's performance characteristics:
Timber Grow Lights FAQ said:
Q: What are COB LEDs?

A: COB (chip on board) LEDs consist of many LEDs packaged in a tight bundle to maximize light output from a small area. When spaced appropriately, COBs provide the same coverage as an HPS bulb and generate much less heat and can be adjusted to suit any grow space.

We use Vero29 COBs exclusively as they most closely mimic the spectral output of the McCree Spectrum. Providing bright white light in all wavelengths between 400-800 nM, instead of just at the Chlorophyll A&B peaks as in red and blue LED fixtures, gives the energy required for all the plant’s physiological responses.

Q: What is the difference between COB LEDs?

A: We offer lights using the latest generation Vero29 LEDs. The Vero29 COB LEDs are among the most efficient on the market today. We drive our Vero29 lights at 100 Watts per COB with similar efficiency as the Cree and Citizen at 50 Watts per COB. This makes the Vero29 a good value and offers significant cost savings over the Cree and Citizen especially over large coverage areas. We use the Vero29 Generation 7 COBs exclusively.
https://timbergrowlights.com/faqs/
 

Blew Hiller

Well-Known Member
States on their FAQ page that Vero is the only brand of COB that they sell, but that this is because of the brand's performance characteristics:

https://timbergrowlights.com/faqs/
They also still had this on their website when you clicked the main page "choosing the right light"....which was helpful when they sold all 3 brands. I bought a Citizen COB from them not knowing any difference...hoping there aren't any issues with those @TimberGrowLights? I run my tent cooler (max 80F).

 

SweetSue

Member of the Year: 2015 & 2016 - Member of the Month: Mar 2015, Sept 2016 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2017 - Creme de la Creme Photos: Dec 2016
My misunderstanding TS, and dang if I didn’t read it wrong three times. :17: Sometimes I wonder if the dyslexia is confined to the daughter’s experience.

Thank you for correcting me. :5: So the basic message is take the reflectors off, advice Dan gave me when I got my units. Inside a tent they’re not needed anyway.
 

MrIcculus

Well-Known Member
Hello 420 Magazine Forum Members,

I wanted to let you know about a potential issue in operating Vero lights with reflectors. It has been brought to our attention by a few Vero owners that there may be issues related to possible melting of the LEDIL Angelina polycarbonate reflector and holder.

Recent Integrated sphere testing of the Vero COBs showed a loss of almost 10% in PAR wattage using the reflectors vs not. Additionally, and most importantly, they showed a significant heat build up near the COB surface, which is exacerbated by the reflector.

You are able to run the light closer to the canopy with even PAR spread. The light emits at a roughly 130° angle from the COB surface as opposed to 90° with the reflectors.

As a result, we made a change to the design, ceasing offering the reflectors going forward. I have been recommending to customers to remove both the reflectors and holders. Affected customers should contact us immediately - we will send you shorter, 6mm screws, to use in place of the longer screws holding the reflector holders in place.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions and/or concerns.

And most importantly, if you own a COB grow light or know a friend who does, please check your optics. As a general rule we recommend periodic checks of the light (electrical connections, COB surface cleanliness, potential issues) to ensure efficient, and safe, operation.

Have a good day.

Best Regards,
Dan
Thank you for the heads up good sir. Still loving these indoor suns, hope to be for years more to come. :headbanger:
 

TimberGrowLights

420 Sponsor
Actually, Dan's notice seems to specifically be about Vero COBs (he mentioned the brand once in the thread title and three times in the text of his post). But he did also generalize in his suggestions/concerns regarding COB-based lighting in general, and as your post illustrates (with its mention of CREE COBs and pictures of melted plastic components that had been installed onto them), this is probably more a general issue than a brand-specific one.

All of these things produce heat, regardless of the brand. Plastic melts. But I guess it's cheaper than metal ;) . Perhaps whoever was responsible for choosing the components didn't do their homework, or maybe the presumed operating temperatures of the COBs were low enough to be below the minimum required to soften, distort, degrade / make brittle, melt, or otherwise damage the reflectors. Maybe the person did the research, found that the stated operating temperature of the COBs fell within the allowable temperature for the plastic reflectors, but in the real world, in enclosed grow spaces, operating 12+ hours at a time... those temperatures just ended up getting exceeded because either the COBs produced more heat than expected or the cooling mechanisms employed (be they active or passive) weren't capable of removing that heat fast enough. Which could make it a "borderline issue," so to speak. Everything is fine... when everything is fine, lol, but increased temperatures in the grow space or even a dirty heatsink (or fan, if used) move things into the red-zone.

I don't know which one of these possibilities are the case here, but I'm going to assume that Dan, et al did their due diligence on this one. If this had been an obvious issue, it would surely have presented itself much sooner, considering the number of products in use today. I sometimes gripe about certain companies using their customers as involuntary beta-testers (Microsoft, Tesla, etc.) - but the truth is, customers will always manage to find weaknesses that squeak past internal testing, regardless of how much testing is performed. Do all the testing on an electronically-shifted vehicle transmission you want, it'll be some drunken clown at 3:30am who discovers that, yes, you can defeat that "cannot be shifted into Park at 70MPH" safety if you try turning the ignition key off in the middle of the process because he was inebriated enough to think he was at the end of his journey :rolleyes: .

Thank you, Dan at @TimberGrowLights , for posting this notice/warning. And thank you for wording it the way you did. If this had been 100% "Vero Issue" language, I might not have stopped to think about the one grow light device I have that contains (six) COBs in it. Forewarned is forearmed, as they say, and now I know what to look for (and that I do need to look, "from time to time").
Good Morning @TorturedSoul

Thank you for the well worded and informative post - I appreciate your response and echo your sentiments.

Have a good day.

Best Regards,
Dan
 
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