Week 5, yellow leaves looking for suggestions

[Kust]

Dear all,

I have two Auto in week 5, and since a couple of weeks I'm trying to understand what is their problem.
I have lower yellow leaves falling down (3/4 in total, not much), so that I would think about Nitrogen deficiency, but I have also other signs similar to nutrient burn so I can't really say.
I started watering with a PH probably close to 7, and now (last week) I've adjusted and it's 6.
I've also flushed both plants before to keep with nutrients.
Soil is Bio Buzz pre-fertilized, so I added the nutrients for vegetative stage only from week 2, and only the minimum recommended.
I'll share few pics so to that maybe someone can tell me how can I save the situation before it's too late hopefully.

 

[bobrown14]

Generally speaking you dont really need nitrogen in flower. N is already stored in the leaves.

For your fertilizer regimen follow direction on the label regarding pH requirements.

I dont use fertilizers but know enough to say 7 pH is likely too high for most fertilizers. Dropping it to 6pH is good but again check your label directions.

That said. Your plants look pretty healthy. Looks like you may have spilled water with fertilizer on the leaves. That will cause what you see there. Also pH too high will do that as well but all plants will be affected the same.

If you need to move leaves away from the soil to water. Remove a few leaves specially leaves touching the soil. So you can water without spilling on plants.

 

[Kust]

Thanks for your feedback. Let me exclude the option to water the leaves as I really don't think it happened. And as it's visible from one of the photos also upper leaves now shows some issue. This plant also have often the top leaves curled and pointing down (often happens by night, even if I have 20/24 Led light).

 

[Emilya Green]

Hi Kust and welcome to the forum!
I don't agree with Bob, but that is nothing new... I think your plants look very unhealthy. I think they are lacking nutrients in a very bad way and that you need to adjust some things quickly to save these plants. The overall yellowing at the top tells me that right now at this moment, these plants are not getting what they need. The dying lower leaves show me that magnesium is lacking, but I see signs that several things are now in need as flowering has changed the nutrition needs of this plant. You need bloom nutes and you need them now. Chances are you need a calcium and magnesium supplement, but lets adjust your baseline before we decide to give anything extra.
Add to this that you are growing White Widow, a plant known to be very hungry. WW can take all the nutes you can give her and there should be no worries about giving full strength nutes.

Lastly, you said you saw signs of nutrient burn. Where? I do not. It is also very important to adjust your pH of your incoming fluids when you are using nutes, and usually in soil you will need to adjust to 6.3 pH for best mobility. Accuracy counts, and if you don't own a digital meter, get one or move to a nutrient program that does not require strict pH adjustment.

 

[Kust]

Hi Kust and welcome to the forum!
I don't agree with Bob, but that is nothing new... I think your plants look very unhealthy. I think they are lacking nutrients in a very bad way and that you need to adjust some things quickly to save these plants. The overall yellowing at the top tells me that right now at this moment, these plants are not getting what they need. The dying lower leaves show me that magnesium is lacking, but I see signs that several things are now in need as flowering has changed the nutrition needs of this plant. You need bloom nutes and you need them now. Chances are you need a calcium and magnesium supplement, but lets adjust your baseline before we decide to give anything extra.
Add to this that you are growing White Widow, a plant known to be very hungry. WW can take all the nutes you can give her and there should be no worries about giving full strength nutes.

Lastly, you said you saw signs of nutrient burn. Where? I do not. It is also very important to adjust your pH of your incoming fluids when you are using nutes, and usually in soil you will need to adjust to 6.3 pH for best mobility. Accuracy counts, and if you don't own a digital meter, get one or move to a nutrient program that does not require strict pH adjustment.

eheh thank you Emilya, even if it's scary to know that my plant looks very unhealty.
I think I've provided enough nutrients until now, but the plant probably couldn't take them due to the wrong PH..
Based on the plan I have from the nutrients, I should keep with the vegetative one for 10 more day aprox. do you think I can mix vegetative nutrients and flowering together?
I've spotted tips of leaves with yellow/brownish color (maybe this is not visible from the pictures) and that's why I thought I gave too much, but I'll consider your feedback, of course. I definitely agree it's not only nitrogen missing here...

 

[shottafire]

eheh thank you Emilya, even if it's scary to know that my plant looks very unhealty.
I think I've provided enough nutrients until now, but the plant probably couldn't take them due to the wrong PH..
Based on the plan I have from the nutrients, I should keep with the vegetative one for 10 more day aprox. do you think I can mix vegetative nutrients and flowering together?
I've spotted tips of leaves with yellow/brownish color (maybe this is not visible from the pictures) and that's why I thought I gave too much, but I'll consider your feedback, of course. I definitely agree it's not only nitrogen missing here...

magnesium definitely lacking and that could help the plant metabolize some nitrogen to green it up.

 

[Emilya Green]

eheh thank you Emilya, even if it's scary to know that my plant looks very unhealty.
I think I've provided enough nutrients until now, but the plant probably couldn't take them due to the wrong PH..
Based on the plan I have from the nutrients, I should keep with the vegetative one for 10 more day aprox. do you think I can mix vegetative nutrients and flowering together?
I've spotted tips of leaves with yellow/brownish color (maybe this is not visible from the pictures) and that's why I thought I gave too much, but I'll consider your feedback, of course. I definitely agree it's not only nitrogen missing here...

Sorry, but based on your plan to stay with veg nutes for 10 more days, you will most likely lose your plants or at least greatly impact the amount of yield you are going to get. You are clearly well into flowering right now, and veg nutes are simply not going to cut it.
No, you should not mix flowering and veg nutes... it too would result in a likely disaster.
Not every bit of damage on leaves indicates a burn... many of the nutrients are stored in the tips of leaves, especially potassium, and when the plant needs to steal some of this to supply the new growth at the top, it kills that area of the leaves. In this case it is not a burn, but nutrient depletion, or in other words, cannibalization.
Consider well my new friend... it is you who came to us for advice, and in me you have found a real life expert in these things with many many years of experience. Part of your consideration should include that I am probably right... not trying to be rude here, but imagine how frustrating it is to give good advice only to have someone say they will consider it... maybe have to check other sources, like youtube to see if the advice is sound.
I have tried... you don't have 10 days to make up your mind, so I have tried to come on as strong as I can without scaring you off.

 

[shottafire]

Sorry, but based on your plan to stay with veg nutes for 10 more days, you will most likely lose your plants or at least greatly impact the amount of yield you are going to get. You are clearly well into flowering right now, and veg nutes are simply not going to cut it.
No, you should not mix flowering and veg nutes... it too would result in a likely disaster.
Not every bit of damage on leaves indicates a burn... many of the nutrients are stored in the tips of leaves, especially potassium, and when the plant needs to steal some of this to supply the new growth at the top, it kills that area of the leaves. In this case it is not a burn, but nutrient depletion, or in other words, cannibalization.
Consider well my new friend... it is you who came to us for advice, and in me you have found a real life expert in these things with many many years of experience. Part of your consideration should include that I am probably right... not trying to be rude here, but imagine how frustrating it is to give good advice only to have someone say they will consider it... maybe have to check other sources, like youtube to see if the advice is sound.
I have tried... you don't have 10 days to make up your mind, so I have tried to come on as strong as I can without scaring you off.

Expert? Really! I mean yeah I see you have a lot of followers and you post some very good info. With this plant you never stop learning and there is more ways to grow a plant then the way you would grow a plant. I have used a lot of nutrients and mixed and played with different things. I worked at a hydroponics store for three years. I’m not gonna say anything more and I’m not trying to be rude towards you. But sometimes some of us need to get cut down to size. Growing gods gift much.

 

[Emilya Green]

Expert? Really! I mean yeah I see you have a lot of followers and you post some very good info. With this plant you never stop learning and there is more ways to grow a plant then the way you would grow a plant. I have used a lot of nutrients and mixed and played with different things. I worked at a hydroponics store for three years. I’m not gonna say anything more and I’m not trying to be rude towards you. But sometimes some of us need to get cut down to size. Growing gods gift much.

So what does it take to be an expert based on your 3 years of experience in the hobby? I have been working in the cannabis gardens around here since I was 14 years old, so about 26 years of good experience. I have never stopped learning and never will. If something new comes along, I try it. I keep up to date with various soils, nutrient lines, politics surrounding this plant and the varieties themselves. I am not an expert in everything, genetic splicing for instance, but I know quite a bit about most aspects of this hobby. Many people consider me a grow guru, and I have grown accustomed to being treated as such. So yes, I am an expert, compared to many, but yet still a novice compared to others. You however, with your vast experience, should refrain from judging, lest you yourself wish to be judged.

 

[Kust]

Sorry, but based on your plan to stay with veg nutes for 10 more days, you will most likely lose your plants or at least greatly impact the amount of yield you are going to get. You are clearly well into flowering right now, and veg nutes are simply not going to cut it.
No, you should not mix flowering and veg nutes... it too would result in a likely disaster.
Not every bit of damage on leaves indicates a burn... many of the nutrients are stored in the tips of leaves, especially potassium, and when the plant needs to steal some of this to supply the new growth at the top, it kills that area of the leaves. In this case it is not a burn, but nutrient depletion, or in other words, cannibalization.
Consider well my new friend... it is you who came to us for advice, and in me you have found a real life expert in these things with many many years of experience. Part of your consideration should include that I am probably right... not trying to be rude here, but imagine how frustrating it is to give good advice only to have someone say they will consider it... maybe have to check other sources, like youtube to see if the advice is sound.
I have tried... you don't have 10 days to make up your mind, so I have tried to come on as strong as I can without scaring you off.

You've probably misunderstood Emilya!
I'm 100% focus on what you've suggested and that's why I've asked you if was an option to mix both type of nutrients!
I'm not an expert, at all (very far from that) and that's why I'm trying to get a full of the situation before to act. I've seen the buds and I was actually wondering if this could still be considered vegetative actually.
The only thing is that I don't comfy 100% on my nutrients and I was considering also other suggestion like magnesium to add using Epsom salts (in addition to switch to bloom).
Don't take it personally, I've just registered and I would be a fool of I just take any suggestion without to double check and make some research first (hope you agree with that!).
My doubt regarding this move was actually: if I've provided nutrients, but due to the PH the plant didn't store them, would I solve everything changing to bloom? What if top leaves didn't store nitrogen, magnesium, calcium and so on?

 

[Kust]

magnesium definitely lacking and that could help the plant metabolize some nitrogen to green it up.

Epsom salts is a valid option? I have it at home...

 

[shottafire]

So what does it take to be an expert in your 3 years of experience in the hobby? I have been working in the cannabis gardens around here since I was 14 years old, so about 26 years of good experience. I have never stopped learning and never will. If something new comes along, I try it. I keep up to date with various soils, nutrient lines, politics surrounding this plant and the varieties themselves. I am not an expert in everything, genetic splicing for instance, but I know quite a bit about most aspects of this hobby. Many people consider me a grow guru, and I have grown accustomed to being treated as such. So yes, I am an expert, compared to many, but yet still a novice compared to others. You however, with your vast experience, should refrain from judging, lest you yourself wish to be judged.

Yeah I only have three years. Lmao. It’s ok grow guru. We should have a grow off. Your high yielding mids wouldn’t stand a chance with the herb I grow.I don’t talk about my accolades and when I’m in a group I mostly listen and don’t run my mouth. The three years I spent at a hydro store I listened to people like you all the time. It’s ok I won’t say anything anymore. No need for a pissing match here and the guy just wants help. So I will let you tell him how to grow.

 

[Emilya Green]

Sorry Kust, but I just wanted to come on strong after reading your comments so that you would really take my words seriously. I know you don't know me, but there is a reason that I have such a huge following on this board. Its not about popularity... I am not a popular person because I shoot straight from the hip and don't hold back.

It is very very easy, too easy, to get contrary OPINIONS on these online resources, and you cant afford confusion right now. So again, the misinformation coming at you got you confused a bit I think, but please focus on two changes, and only after seeing the results of those changes should you even consider adding anything else to this nutrient mix. Fix the pH problem on your next watering, and give the proper nutes. Please consider that the veg nutes do NOT have what is needed right now and what the plant is complaining about, veg nutes have primarily N and a little bit of the PK and other stuff. Flowering nutes compared to this have much more good stuff, and less N. The plants don't store as much as you are thinking they do, but what was stored is now gone, with the cannibalization of your leaves so far. Stop this process now by understanding why it is happening. Fix the basic problem and please do not throw epsom salt or other stuff at this problem yet... or this grow will go south, IMHO.

 

[shottafire]

I have close to 20 years in this hobby and I’m in one of the most competitive markets there is in the world.... Southern California. It is tough and I have learned from some very talented and humble growers.
These are my plants right now so I can definitely grow proper herb and I have a much different approach to growing then you might have emilya. I’m sorry for coming off rude and I’m sorry for taking this thread off topic.

Panda mints x orange zkittles @day 31 (animal mints pheno)

• shottafire
• Apr 29, 2020
• 1

Panda mints x orange zkittles day 31 flower

• shottafire
• Apr 29, 2020

 

[bobrown14]

Thanks for your feedback. Let me exclude the option to water the leaves as I really don't think it happened. And as it's visible from one of the photos also upper leaves now shows some issue. This plant also have often the top leaves curled and pointing down (often happens by night, even if I have 20/24 Led light).

Original post say 3 or 4 leaves showed a few spots. OK now its a deficiency and all the plants are showing it?? I was specifically looking at this pic you posted.

and this looks fine to me. I'm gonna go out on a scientific limb here and say a Mg deficiency in soil is VERY to extremely unlikely. I'm sorry I don't see what anyone thinks is a deficiency. A few and the OP posted "(3/4 in total, not much)" leaves with slight issues that look like nutes spilled on leaves to me sorry OP that's what it looks like and I'm sticking to what I suggested and that is to remove those lower leaves that are touching or at the soil line. Get a fan in there and go with the proper pH and you will be fine.

We could argue the benefit of "flushing"?? I'm all for it. Anyone?

Could be the problem - "the flush". Likely to very probable. But thats just the science.

How a "flush" happened on plants with leaves hanging down below the soil line and nothing spilled on them?? OK... I'm not sure thats even possible but sure...

Likely the "flush" screwed up the microbes in the soil (killed them) without those microbes how does the plant get nutrients?? Food for thought.

Flame suit on with textbook shield in hand. Fire away.

 

[bobrown14]

So what does it take to be an expert based on your 3 years of experience in the hobby?

Read a book on Biology and/or horticulture or both with a side youtube vid on soil science.

Many if not all this cannabis growing "expert stuff (myths)" disappears.

Or grow a veggie garden.... thats a good teacher right there.

I honestly cant figure out how my veggies grow without those "bloom nutes" or all those other goodies in bottles.

 

[Emilya Green]

Let the opinions fly... you clearly have plenty of experts here to help. If you wish further input, contact me... I have no desire to argue or justify my long history on this forum or the reason that I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of followers. ---Emmers out

 

[Kust]

Original post say 3 or 4 leaves showed a few spots. OK now its a deficiency and all the plants are showing it?? I was specifically looking at this pic you posted.

and this looks fine to me. I'm gonna go out on a scientific limb here and say a Mg deficiency in soil is VERY to extremely unlikely. I'm sorry I don't see what anyone thinks is a deficiency. A few and the OP posted "(3/4 in total, not much)" leaves with slight issues that look like nutes spilled on leaves to me sorry OP that's what it looks like and I'm sticking to what I suggested and that is to remove those lower leaves that are touching or at the soil line. Get a fan in there and go with the proper pH and you will be fine.

We could argue the benefit of "flushing"?? I'm all for it. Anyone?

Could be the problem - "the flush". Likely to very probable. But thats just the science.

How a "flush" happened on plants with leaves hanging down below the soil line and nothing spilled on them?? OK... I'm not sure thats even possible but sure...

Likely the "flush" screwed up the microbes in the soil (killed them) without those microbes how does the plant get nutrients?? Food for thought.

Flame suit on with textbook shield in hand. Fire away.

Thank you bobrown14, let me add that I did the flush because of this situation so that I can guarantee that it's not the cause. I did it (2 days ago) as soon as I've realized that the PH wasn't optimal. I'm at day 35 today and the yellowing started day 18 (since then sometimes looked better and some other not).

I've lost 3/4 leaves, correct, but I can see now that from the bottom the problem is affecting also upper leaves with different marks (see this new image).

 

[bobrown14]

You now have a lockout of some sort.

You can cause all sorts of issues with flushing.

You cannot fix a pH issue of any sort by running excess water thru soil. You can do that in a soil-less medium but you're growing in soil.

I just went thru an issue with my grow. I moved to a new home and the water pH was WAY high like 9pH - I never tested my water pH and didn't have a pH pen. I had a "feeling" my pH in the water was off so I hooked up a RO water filter that is supposed to give me water with a 6.5pH or very close. So thought I'm good.

I was still getting the same issue (similar to yours - leaf necrosis = brown spots). It didn't slow down with the RO filter. So I got a pH pen and tested my RO water and sure enough I still had 9pH water out of the RO filter (well water) with 10 ppm. I started adjusting the water to less than 7pH and the plants stopped showing those signs.

When plants show you they are not happy. Trouble shooting is key. But I like to react based on knowledge. So how do I find the knowledge??

There's a lot of myths in the cannabis growing world. These myths have been passed along for generations based on anecdotal evidence at best. "Flushing" is one of them as is "defoil" and "topping" the list goes on.

When you trouble shoot, look at the plant as a whole not just a few leaves. When things go south most of the time the problem is something I am doing not something wrong with the plant (other than genetics).

Brown spots/ leaf necrosis like you have are troublesome for me as this is a sign the plant is not getting proper nutrients. A few leaves I generally dont do anything other than keep a closer eye out.
IF it continues then I start looking at what I'm doing. The fewer things I do to the plant the easier it is to trouble shoot.

In my case I water and IPM (integrated pest management) and thats all. So 1 of those 2 things I was doing was hurting the plant. So I started looking at what I was doing and it had to be water and or IPM. Easy enough, stop IPM and watch and see. Sure enough the plants were still struggling. So the a-hah moment, its the water. Tested with a pH pen and bam pH was way high. Adjust the water and wait and see.....

Issues with plants take a bit of time to happen and a bit of time to fix. Time is our friend in this regard.

Change 1 thing at a time.... wait and see.

To get back to your issue in hand. Flushing likely compounded your issue. I would get EWC (earth worm castings) and kelp meal and make put a cup of them in a bucket of water let it sit overnight and use that to water in. No nutrients. @Emilya likes to use Recharge which is basically microbes packaged similar to the kelp/ewc tea I use/recomend. This will help with the root zone issues.

You need to let the soil dry out quite a bit after your flush. Soil that is waterlogged can also cause issues like you're seeing. But the result is the same whatever the reason. The roots are not getting the proper nutrition.

 

[shottafire]

Checking the runoff if you can will help. I apologize to you kust for the way I handled myself and that is not the type of person I am.
Could you tell me the soil your using is it the all mix or the light mix. I don’t see an auto at 5weeks exhausting the all mix that fast. If you used the light mix That’s probably where your issue is with not enough energy in your pot. Your nutrients are probably still in the pot locked up due to ph issue if you used the all mix . Check the runoff when you can at your earliest convenience. Collecting runoff can be a pain but it will give you an idea of your next step.