What Type of Lighting is Best?

[Envirotech]

The same GE website you mentioned further discloses the many types of halogen bulbs. Once again applying them unilaterally is silly. Some block IR and UV and some don't. But, you "worked" on it, so you can specify the exact one, but did you? Not that it matters anyway, it's just not the light to use, as it's only a little better than a standard incandescant.

Again, don't be so quick to cherry pick as to completely ignore what I've told you about ratios, as in relative to one another, as well as cycles, as in periodic usage. N O T unilaterally or half hazardly applied.

You see it is a lot easier to supplement a novelty LED light with just a few CFLs or a small HPS which gets the required results with least effort and cost, than it is to pretend you can know exactly how much and of what is missing, then proceeding to throw the kitchen sink at it. Wouldn't you agree.



So passionately emoted... can only mean truth. The argument is that the higher power it is, the less efficient it becomes, so you're better off using more of lower powered lights operating at higher efficiency which drops the operating costs but obviously increases the initial expense... which btw a salesman such as yourself should be all for (doh!!). Of course that can't be universally applied either, but as you get up in power it can.

That you turned that into a spiral versus tube/U = non sequitur/red herring.

Yes, U type CFL should be of higher efficacy than its spiral brethrin, what you quoted as a difference of ~10 lumens, assuming that was for the same wattage.

From the specs on your own site, which are more beliavable than I've found quoted elsewhere:
-125 8000 hrs 7800 = 62 lumens/w
-250 8000 hrs 14200 =57 lumens/w

You see the lower powered one is more efficient.


May as well quarter the light and use four of them, but you're stuck with what you bought. Anyway fixture efficiency ratings for CFL typically reduces their efficacy by 50% and that's a huge number, so you're not getting the theoretical max conversion efficiency but likely only half that.

Speaking of being stuck with what you buy:

YouTube - ENVIROLITE 250 WATT GROW LAMP BLOWN POOR QUALITY SHORT LIFESPAN BULB FLOURESCENT

First of all Photonz "envirolites" is not my product. These lights are actually way overrated in their wattage. If you take an amp reading on the "250" watt bulb it only draws 0.9 amps @115 volts so it actually only draws 104 watts.This is actual real time power consumption. It's more inline to what a standard output T5 puts out. 4 ft T5 is 28 watts 4 X4 ft t5 or 16 ft. is 112watts. This light has 15 ft. of T5. I have posted this finding about a year ago. Why the manufacturers rate them with higher wattage is beyond me.

""But here is where the real laugh comes into play. It is the phosphor area that emits the light. Look at the portion of that area that faces the plant directly, about 1/4 of the outter circumferance. The other 3/4 face reflector, leading to fixture efficiency losses. The entire inner circumfereance of that area just faces the other side of the inner circumference, it has to traverse through the tubes to get out or be reflected around, that's extremely inefficient.""
This is why most people hang these lights vertically without a reflector within the canopy and not horizontally. so how are the smaller curlies better?they have the same issue. You said this reduces the efficiency by 50% were did you get this number from? Just because the bulbs face each other or face the reflector causes this light is just eaten up? That's why they call them reflectors they reflect!

I did a little checking on your claim that led panels that use IR is not really IR "Far red is usefull aka iR what many marketers refer to as ir for lack of knowing better"this was your qoute in response to you contridicting yourself saying IR is not useful in plant lighting then saying it was important.I found most of these led's use 730-780nM . Isn't this actually infra red? 700-1200 classified as infra red A.

"You see it is a lot easier to supplement a novelty LED light with just a few CFLs or a small HPS which gets the required results with least effort and cost, than it is to pretend you can know exactly how much and of what is missing, then proceeding to throw the kitchen sink at it. Wouldn't you agree."

How did i try to pretend to know exactly how much or of what missing wavelenth there is. I simply sugested to add a small led of red 660, a cfl in 2700 and 6400K and a small halogen and explained what each light provided no specific amounts. Essentially isn't this what most led sellers doing with adding every wavelength they can get their hands on? so isn't by doing this a much cheaper way of achieving the samething?
You yourself said by adding a few cfls or a small HPS get you the required results. Arn't you doing the same thing??!!!

 

[CharlieMopps]

haha, i havent heard that much swearing in one conversation in a while. lolz

 

[Envirotech]

"What's funnier still btw, as you noted yourself, there are CFLs that have efficacy up to 70 lumens /per watt. Seems to beg the question why you're selling this junk? "

Millions can't be wrong. After searching "envirolites" this was the only negative post about the product. For him to blow two in a week i think he was using a digital timer on this light, which is a no no for any cfl light no digital timers or photo sensors and dimmers because they continue to send voltage through the light in the off cycle. This small amount of voltage is used for the timmer clock and will cause the ballast to blow. If you don't believe me try a dimmer on a cfl. ALWAYS use mechanical timers with CFLs

 

[TorturedSoul]

For him to blow two in a week i think he was using a digital timer on this light, which is a no no for any cfl light no digital timers or photo sensors and dimmers because they continue to send voltage through the light in the off cycle. This small amount of voltage is used for the timmer clock and will cause the ballast to blow. If you don't believe me try a dimmer on a cfl. ALWAYS use mechanical timers with CFLs

I recently noticed a timer/CFL issue, myself. I dug out the old "trusty" 24h mechanical(?) timer, the kind that has tabs in a circle that you pull up. A power-strip was plugged in to the timer with a few small "conventional" CFLs running off the power-strip. I sat the timer up, returned an hour later - after it had shut down - to make sure that it did actually shut things down.

To my surprise, I walked into a dark room to see regular, faint "flashing" as if the lights were getting enough of a voltage flash to start to light up and then immediately go dark. Talk about a "WtF moment," lol. I never noticed that happening when the timer was in actual use with HID (HPS, MH) lighting. But in thinking about it, I now wonder if it was letting voltage leak through to those lights as well but just not in amounts necessary to fire such a light - if so, it probably wasn't good for things.

Guess it's time to add "timer" to the things that I need to look into replacing.

 

[G-Dog]

I am not going to pick it all apart but keep this in mind.. When you hang a CFL bulb vertically you are exposing buds to the long axis of radiance from the bulb. Hanging a CFL between buds or plants is a very good way of getting the maximum efficiency from that type of bulb. You can expose two or more buds to the same light as it radiates in all directions from the bulb. When you put a CFL horizontally into a reflector you are radiating upward into the reflector and then back through the CFL bulb itself and then back into the plants. You are not doing your plants any favors in that configuration. Only 20% of the bulb is radiating into the plants directly, and the rest is radiating into the wrong direction and only a some of it is being gathered and reflected back. The further the light travels the more intensity it loses. If you mount a bulb vertically between plants and bulbs you could use 100% of the radiated light directly on the plant without the losses of reflectance and distance or the light being forced back into itself.

You can see the inverse square law diagram of radiation below and that explains what happens to light as it travels. When you go into a reflector hood, back through the bulb and into the plants you lose light intensity in both directions and some is just bounced around the inner spirals of the bulb.

 

[TorturedSoul]

BTW, your PAR Max CFL product is not so great, since at least half the light it outputs is obstructed by the other half of the light. Only the outter perimeter is efficient.

Looks to me like a fair amount of that inner illumination can escape. Whether or not it ultimately reaches the plants depends, of course, on other factors such as bulb placement and reflector use (if applicable to the particular setup). But it DOES look like an excellent compromise between having the tubes so tight that usable light cannot escape and having them spread to the point that efficiency suffers. That's a 105-watt version, BtW. I think higher-wattage versions require mogul sockets (but I might be mistaken).

IDK, to be honest with you, as I've not tried them yet. I'll let you know.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Here is a pretty good read on high wattage cfl's

How does lamp orientation affect performance of HW-CFLs? | High-Wattage Compact Fluorescent Lamps | Lighting Answers | NLPIP

Link looks useful and informative. Thanks.

Hey that is cool. I haven't seen that yet. That looks much smarter than the previous one I agree. It's nice to see they're starting to think about what they're doing.

Implementing that could pose an interesting problem as well, because now it could likely go either horizontally or vertically. I still think vertically is best avoided however, even though it looks like the right choice based on that design, because the heat will be more concentrated around the electronics this way, reducing the output of the converter and light output with it, not to mention overall lifespan of already iffy electronics.

I tend to favor horizontal bulb orientation because it has generally fitted best with the methods that I've used most of the time. I am unsure as of yet as to whether the manufacturer considers it horizontal, universal, vertical(?) and whether or not it suggests the usual one hour (minimum) unused per 24 if the bulb is mounted in... ugh, I've been up too long in one stretch and cannot remember the orientation I've seen that recommendation coupled with. I intend to use a different lighting scheme for flowering, so I don't see using them vertically between plants at this time. But I've not entirely finalized things yet, so who knows?

If you use a reflector with it in either position though try and get one that's nicely vented.

If I use a reflector with them (I'm planning on running a couple of the bulbs), it'll almost certainly be homemade. And after checking today, I realized I was out of 95% reflective specular aluminum sheet stock. You'd be surprised what that stuff ends up getting used for, lol, and every time someone saw it it seems like they wanted a piece. Since I've (unfortunately) already entered my yearly "Hope you've got enough in the pantry to live on because work will be scarcer than hen's teeth until Spring" phase, available materials will likely be comprised of things such as roof flashing, scrap wood, and flat white paint. I'll have to measure them, see what kind of heat they actually produce with my non-contact IR thermometer, and check their dispersal pattern. If I need to get some (minor) hardware, I probably have enough left to pick it up but it'll cause me to ramp up my economizing to include such little gems as recycling coffee grounds at the ratio of one part old to (hopefully) two parts new and the like - but what else is new, lol?

I ought to be able to whip up something if it seems warranted. It'll not fall under the heading (or the same universe) as "bleeding edge," but that's not my intention. I've never been a "look at ME!" kind of guy and that applies in regards to horticulture as much as anything. I'm curious as to what these lights are realistically capable of. There has been some question/speculation by others so I thought I'd do a grow journal. Not with the purpose of wringing every last iota of performance and gram of yield out of them by spending the money for the absolute best of everything (I couldn't even if I wanted to) in such a way that would put duplication of the grow out of the reach of the average person, but rather to create a decent grow using solid, known materials in such a way that the average grower should be able to easily duplicate the grow for him/herself. Kind of a benchmark, if you will. <SHRUGS> Like most benchmarks, the use of custom setups and expensive materials would probably allow someone to surpass whatever results I get. But it makes more sense to me to have it that way than the other way 'round.

I haven't gotten everything together that I need yet. I still have to pick up a pH meter and will probably get a Milwaukee ph57 to replace the one I gave away last year. I really liked it, calibration amounted to pushing buttons and dipping it into the calibration solutions, ther resolution and accuracy are nice, and one can be had for around $60-$70. But I might change my mind at the last minute and pick up Milwaukee's pH600. It's an economy-class meter without a replaceable electrode and the accuracy/resolution is less (but still adequate for most people in this area of use), but it's still a solid choice and can be had for around $25 - and I can always run a sample across town to the plant and use one of their lab's meters if I'm feeling really anal - or bored - and want accuracy to +/- .002pH. The cheaper meter would be in keeping with the whole "cheap and simple" idea. But a pH meter is one of those things I've never recommended scrimping on unless the budget limitations were severe, so I do not feel constrained here. I also need some incidentals that I'll be picking up over the course of the next week or so. Therefore it'll be at least a week and probably closer to two or even possibly three before I start the grow. I want to start it as soon as possible, but not at the cost of forgetting something that I'll need or half-@ssing it.



I've got three different strains to use - a mostly sativa, a mostly indica, and a "middle of the road" strain. My original thinking was to use clones, but an interesting misfortune (don't ask, lol) and a rather unexpected but fortunate turn of events has allowed me the three strains. Although starting from seed instead of with clones will of course delay the harvest results, I believe it brings two benefits to the grow: It allows me to do the test with plants that (one would assume) have three different growth characteristics, either together in one grow or consecutively (yet to be decided - I want to run them all at once but am not certain yet what the useful footprint of my lights will be and I do not wish to lose yield due to overcrowding; I suppose I could start with all three and if need be remove plants at some point but I'd rather not remove a plant once it enters the grow) and it allows me to test these rosebud CFLs for their usefulness as vegetative lights. Like you, many people have not seen this type of bulb before. I'd only seen pictures, myself, and after searching around I've not seen a grow using them on this or any other site (which doesn't mean such grows don't exist, of course, but it makes it likely that few people here would have seen them in action).

I've not posted a grow here before for various reasons. As I mentioned above, I'm not in the habit of doing something just to be seen doing it and always figured that I wouldn't do a first one here unless and until I felt that I might in some way benefit others. I hope to do so. I hope to learn a few things, help others do the same, show an uncommon lighting setup, provide a useful and repeatable benchmark for those lights, and help the supplier of those lights (he's already shown willingness to adjust the color spectrum of the flowering spectrum, for example, and I believe that such an attitude is important and so would like to help both he and any members here who might ultimately decide to use them by doing what I can to help him test/improve his product). Who knows, there might even be some entertainment value in the journal as well - some of the members here make me laugh pretty regularly (often - but not always - intentionally, lol).

What's a light like that cost and where do you get them?

EnviroTech Lighting

 

[willoby]

I have also been looking into LED lights and I'm convinced they are great for some grows. The only problem I have at this point is that I want to grow some auto-flowers using 20 hours a day of light. All of the LED lights and manufacturers I have talked to, do not recommend using their LED's for more than 12 to 16 hours at a time and all of there lights are rated and tested for basically no more use than around 16 hours tops a day.....I could be wrong, but from what I have looked into and from the company reps I have talked to, this is what I have learned...Still gonna try it though!!!!!!!

 

[filthyphil]

Hey Guys I've got a small grow are a closet to be exact, so A 250 watt HPS will work for 3 plants? I don't want to burn my hut down. Any feedback will help

 

[iamdonald]

Hi all, thinking about trying to grow for the first time here. This might sound idiotic but just wondering if it is possible to grow without any artificial lighting in a place where the average hours of sunlight a day is 12 hours, the temperature fluctuates between 80-90 degrees and the humidity is around 80%?

 

[Ronniejamez]

Will a 90w ufo, 40w (4000 lumen) corn bulb (5500k) and 2x 20w (1800 lumen) led globes 2700k, be enough to grow 2 autoflowers. It wil be done in biomizz light mix. Any opinions would help thanx

 

[Dentu50]

I have a 4x2x5 grow tent. I also have 2 led grow lights, each 300 watts and full spectrum. I am using 3gal airports with mixture of Fox Farm Happy Frog and Ocean Blend. How many plants can I grow...I will be using auto strains. I have read that 2 would be the maximum in some places, where as other places say up to 5. HELP! Thanks all in advance

 

[MrRudeSnowman]

I have a 4x2x5 grow tent. I also have 2 led grow lights, each 300 watts and full spectrum. I am using 3gal airports with mixture of Fox Farm Happy Frog and Ocean Blend. How many plants can I grow...I will be using auto strains. I have read that 2 would be the maximum in some places, where as other places say up to 5. HELP! Thanks all in advance

Do 2 plants and push them to maximum. Sure you can have like 10 plants... see of green it's called by many. But it makes more sense for 2 plants that are well developed. That's what i am doing with setup almost like yours.

 

[Suren1987]

Im a newbie with MJ growing, and at the moment Im growing not because I want to smoke, but because i enjoy the process of growing this plant for the first time. But that does not mean i wont smoke it when it's ready ahahah )

Since I wanted to keep my budget low, I went fro a CFL bulb I can add link just for tech spec (Fluorowing grow light kit 150w Hydrofarm) at the moment I have a 125W bulb in it and growing 1 plant and soon switching it to flower mode.

But I had some free seeds from the shop i buy all my things at and i planted 2 more plants, they are just starting to get the 2 spiky leaves, one plant was damaged by me accidentally just when it started to sprout so the plant is growing slower then the second one.

So I was wondering, how many low wats cfls can i use on those 2 plants? or will they still grow somewhat if they stay with my big under a 12/12 regime?

 

[baron1]

use a t5 sunblaze on my clones and they love it.

 

[spacef]

The real problem with CFL is not only the wattage, but it is the penetration. Intensity is true if you consider the first few inches... but it is anothe rstory when you consider any distance passed 30 cm (1 foot).

I used the 4 following bulbs in different grow session: 200W Dual, 250 W grow, 250 W bloom, 300 W bloom.
I used three CIS lights, and 1 Eco Sun. The CIS are better in my opinion, but the Eco sun was the 200W so the weakest, even if it was good, it was weaker than the others by definition (less watt).

200 or 250 is good for seeds and veg
250 or 300 is what you need for bloom

A 250W will be placed 15/20 cm from canoppee, and a 300 W can be placed 20/30 cm from canopee.

Bud burns is possible with a CFL 250W placed too close to the plants. In general, it is very localized (like a burnt spot under the CFL, but very localized. Seems like light distribution in a CFL is not even at all.

The light penetration of a CFL is barely 30 cm (1 foot) eventhough it goes to 60 (2feet). But at 60cm from bulb, it is really not an intensity that helps a lot. It goves light, but it will grow very slowly at this distance. That's the main problem with CFL: the top of the plant mature fine, while the lower buds remain babies...

Maturation of buds will happen only at canoppee. Lower buds will take much more time to mature (count a difference of 2 to 3 weeks or more, it is really a big difference). I think that it is a problem with any lamp of any technology that does not have enpough intensity to penetrate the low parts of the plant.

CFL U Tubes: I only used those big fat U bulbs, horizontally, just above the plants.

Now I prefer to use two of them vertically on the sides of the box , so it can go deeper .

With CFL, The light is present at the front of the tubes (where the "U" bends are located), and is very weak at the rear/base of the lamp. So, if your light was a circle, it's center would be in the first 10 cm of the front end of the U CFL tubes. The half of the CFL from the base to the middle is very weak.

In one word: a CFL has two parts: the front half where the intensity is generally located, and the rear-half, which is weak and intensity is (i guess) half of what you have at the front of the tubes.

With 1 CFL horizontally, , you can grow a max of 3 plants: 2 at the front on each side, and 1 at the back, in the middle. That way, the 3 plants receive more or less the same amount of light and will grow at the same speed.

Now I Use the 200W dual and the 300 W bloom at the same time on the sides of a 4*4 box for seedlings only. There is a 500W led panel (mars hydro 1200) but the CFL are closer and the seedlings prefer the CFL for the moment. I also prefer the CFLs during the 10 first days. Blue, dual, red, it is all the same to me. The 300W Bloom CFL gives faster and better results than the Dual 200W CFL on young plants. I think intensity is the key here.


I only share what I have concluded on pure empirical observation and not scientific studies. I've read the article about CFL that is linked here, and I find it good eventhough slightly optimistic

In any case, I 've had very good crop with good taste and more high than i wanted with only One 250 or 300 W CFL, on plants that were about 30cm high (1 foot) and 3 plants in a 2*2 box as explained above (two at the front on each sides of the CFL - with the extreme front of the map just before the middle of the plants on that side (ie, no need to put the "U" above the plant: just before the plants is enough - and 1 at the back just under the CFL "ass" ( )

The 3 plants things: it is something you must do if you don't want to waste 2 plants at the back of the CFL: kill one to save one, rather than growing 2 for nothing and wasting time and money.

Other peopel will do otherwise. Many people prefer to use multiple low-watt CFL and place them everywhere they can. I suppose it is a solution too....

Check my completed journals for some pictures (especially the one with Caramel Auto+Syrup+Sweet Skunk, because for the other grows, I switched to leds).

I hope it helps, and that other people experienced with CFL will either agree or add details.
Good luck.

Im a newbie with MJ growing, and at the moment Im growing not because I want to smoke, but because i enjoy the process of growing this plant for the first time. But that does not mean i wont smoke it when it's ready ahahah )

Since I wanted to keep my budget low, I went fro a CFL bulb I can add link just for tech spec (Fluorowing grow light kit 150w Hydrofarm) at the moment I have a 125W bulb in it and growing 1 plant and soon switching it to flower mode.

But I had some free seeds from the shop i buy all my things at and i planted 2 more plants, they are just starting to get the 2 spiky leaves, one plant was damaged by me accidentally just when it started to sprout so the plant is growing slower then the second one.

So I was wondering, how many low wats cfls can i use on those 2 plants? or will they still grow somewhat if they stay with my big under a 12/12 regime?

 

[fopho]

This may have been said already. Your going to want to use a variety of lights. Ive gotten the best results by using both MH/HPS with LEDs. Think about all the spectrum's of the sun. You think you get the full spectrum from just 1 light source? Think about it, LEDs give tighter nodes & buds, while HPS bulks them up. Im not saying these lights only work together. Just saying you get more from using a combination of different lights as opposed to limiting yourself to just one style.

 

[CrazyDutch]

Just wanna share with people thinking about lights and give them a example with my grow what's possible . Small closet 50×50×70 cm 3 plants first time grow with HOME use leds 2700K , 2 months veg and today the 7th day of flowering, everyone is free to use what ever they want but I don't understand why people give money for other types of light that use more and cost more on long term, I don't have the best leds and still produce around 11000 lumens and use under 120 Watts and that all for under 100 Euro...

 

[CrazyDutch]

exactly, as long as they don't touch the leds they don't burn so you can put your lights as close as you want

 

[Mosspb]

Hey all,

New to growing and I'm currently building a box (3ft x 2ft, x 4ft) and my plan is to start with 2 plants. Could I please get some advice on these cheap lights?

Amazon.ca:Customer reviews: 45W LED Grow Lights 0.4inch Ultrathin with 225Pcs LED Full Spectrum Hanging Plant Growing panel For Indoor Garden Greenhouse and Hydroponic Aquatic

My plan was to run 2 of these lights to cover 6sq ft

I had planned on running CFL's, and have done a bit of reading with respect to number of lumens required. In order to hit that 2000-5000 Lumens / sq ft I would need to run about 16 CFL which seemed a bit excessive.

Please let me know which way you would start (keeping a budget in mind).