420 Magazine Background

Why are F2 seeds less expensive?

SmokeyMacPot

New Member
Why does one strain cost less from one seed breeder than it does from another?

Let's start off by saying that in terms of seed prices, you normally pay for the strain genetics, but this is not always the case, some seed makers (breeders) will always try to charge more on a strain, simply because they seek a larger profit margin than some of their competitors. Also, some breeders have to pay premiums to the original, big name strain breeders, to be able to use the original copyrighted genetics strain name(s).

It's also worth noting that just because you have grade A genetics, it does not always mean your going to get top grade plants. Growing conditions and experience can play a much bigger role in a plants end result than the strain genetics.

So why do some seed makers charge so little in comparison to others? Is something wrong with their genetics?

No, there is nothing wrong with the genetics. These seeds come from F2 stock, and are sometimes just fast knockoffs of the original strain(s).

What is F2 stock?

Ok, I'm not going to go into great depth here on just what an F2 stock of seeds is. Basically, you start of with homozygous strains. These are considered true breeding strains, and will show little variation in phenotype. When you start mixing true breeding strains you end up with heterozygous strains. The phenotypes in these will vary a little more than the homozygous parents. A heterozygous strain is considered to be a hybrid. An F1, F2, F3 etc are all hybrids!

F1 hybrid - is the first generation of a cross between any two unrelated seed lines in the creation of a hybrid. F1 hybrids can be uniform or variable depending on the parent stock used.

F2 hybrid - is the offspring of a cross between two F1 plants.

You can also get F1, F2 crosses etc, but I wont go into that.

Basically, all you need to know is that a seed bank will have a description of a strain and its characteristics. For F1 seed stock, most of the plants will remain true to that description, with little variance. F2 stock will vary more, your get maybe 3-4 plants out of 10 seeds that will be true to the seed bank description, the rest will be a little different.

So what's this phenotype about?

A phenotype is a particular trait or characteristic of a plant. It could be high yield or berry like aroma, but a seed bank will often give you a description of a strain, normally listing the best phenotype. F2 stock phenotypes will vary more than F1 stock. And it gets worse as you progress to F3, F4 etc.

So basically, when you order an F2 stock of seed, be prepared for lots of different looking plants. However no potency or yield is lost between F1 and F2 plants.

When ordering F2 stock, the idea is to search out the better phenotypes, and clone them so in future you only work with the best genetics of the bunch. With F1 stock, you should have more uniform plants that all perform similar, and if the breeders done his job correctly, this should be as close to the original description that tempted you to buy the seeds in the first place as you can get!

So that's why some breeders charge less for their seeds than others. Remember breeders prices will vary anyway, it's always worth shopping around for a strain price.

Author: Crazydevs
 

Wingman420

420 Member
Thanks great Post
+ Rep

I have a quick question, sometimes when buying seeds I have seen F6 and even F8, or F9, not often, but occasionally. Is the F8 or F9 a more stable cross? I would think that if I was breeding and selecting the plants genetics as deep as F6 and higher up would be the most desirable. After all there are very few "True" strains to start with as we are all seeking that "Perfect Pheno" with decent yields and prolific highs or medical values.
Any comments would be great.
Thank You
 

Stonercool

New Member
Thanks great Post
+ Rep

I have a quick question, sometimes when buying seeds I have seen F6 and even F8, or F9, not often, but occasionally. Is the F8 or F9 a more stable cross? I would think that if I was breeding and selecting the plants genetics as deep as F6 and higher up would be the most desirable. After all there are very few "True" strains to start with as we are all seeking that "Perfect Pheno" with decent yields and prolific highs or medical values.
Any comments would be great.
Thank You
This is a great question to ask. What is the perfect phenotype for MJ? And if you ever come up with the answer, don't tell anyone.

Or tell everyone and make yourself a bazillionaire.

I think you've nailed it, we all want to find the most stable strain, but at the same time, sometimes plants don't act the way we think they should. Though it might seem like certain strains can be crossbred in order to make a certain result, that's not always the case, even if you have all of the research saying otherwise.

I think Mother Nature is just a little smarter than we can be.

I think your logic is realistic, but I've found sometimes that even when the strain is supposed to be crap, it's turned out awesome with the right nutes and the right grow room setup.

And when I've spent big money on high quality strains, those haven't always turned out as good as I would have expected.

Just gotta try and hope for the best sometimes....:blunt:
 

dagon420

New Member
My question is, which seedbank do you trust most for quality genetics?

I know the prices from Nirvana vs. Serious Seeds (for example) are far apart. But does that mean that serious seeds offers better genetics?
 

vannelle

New Member
Also, some breeders have to pay premiums to the original, big name strain breeders, to be able to use the original copyrighted genetics strain name(s).

why would they do that? i never heard of this.
 

E Doh907

New Member
well its just like how downloading music online for free is stealing, claiming anothers genetics as ur own pisses that person off. but idk how sum1 would know they are doing that unless they are using the same exact name and advertising it as originals. so if the new company doesnt have some arangement with the original seed company and is selling like f2s or f3s an so on of the original seed the original company would want them to change the name,.

I read in skunk i think awhile back about simon from serious seeds was always having a problem with people claiming to be selling orignal ak-47 seeds, so he would contact them express his concerns and request a name change, state that u used the genetics in a new creation. the reason he didnt like this is because he worked hard for his rep, and alot of people were calling with problems, well it usually turned out they bought seeds from somewhere claiming they were originals and they were like f2s which wouldnt be as stable, he said normally the companys would change the name, but if they didnt i think he would be able to take them to court. i havnt read it in a while but thats basically what was said
 

wheat berry

New Member
F2's are less expensive because anyone who buys a pack of F1's can make them by just letting the males pollenate the females. a person can make thousands of F2's, will very little effort.

in my experience expensive genetics are not always better.
 

Redlan

New Member
Someone can send me thousands of f2s and I would not complain. Lol. Impossible to find seeds in my neck of the woods
 

onavelzy

New Member
well, there's differences in crosses that come after the original f1 cross, right? you can take a male and a female from the original cross and breed them together to create an f2. but would a male crossed back to the mother or a female pollinated by the original father be called f2's also? and what if you cross the f1 to an f1 that was bred from siblings of the original f1's parents? is that an f1 or an f2? there's a reason people (well, me anyway) find genetics more confusing than algebra
 

The303Stoner

New Member
Crossing F1's with one of the parents is called back cross or BX. BX plants variation comes from the strains stored genetic information opposed to forward crossing which is adding new information. I think BX's are more prized buy the breeder and F1's win more Cups because of the new flavors and bag appeal.
 

onavelzy

New Member
thx 303. i'm glad that there's breeders who get all this because it really is a subject that i just don't fathom well. im good with just using their expertise.
 

Srilania

New Member
Think of it like a weird double reeled slot machine. you have one reel from each parent, with the aspects both from a strong, or Dominant trait, and a weak or recessive gene. When the reels roll, it's like a game of rock, paper, scissors. Say you have 2 people, one with green dominant eyes and blue recessive, and the other has brown eye dominant and blue eye recessive. Well, you see their eyes are green and brown. However, when they breed, it's up to the roll. If reel 1 gives blue and reel 2 gives brown, the offspring will probably be brown eyed. Same with the green. But, there's always the chance that both the parents will toss up the recessive blue eyes gene.

Just think of it like this. EVERY seed you plant is a pull on the slot machine handle. You might win huge with a wonderful plant, you might do ok, or you might get squat with a male. with an F1, they are reliably certain that most of the plants you grow will have just what you want. But, as you go down the chain, you're adding more randomness into the breed.
 

uptheholler

New Member
This is a great thread but I thought that i would chime in here. Some of the differences that folks have been describing are because of a problem with our first supposition. That problem is that alot of companies don't truly have consistantly true breeding lines to start with.
I have been fairly vocal on my issues with some breeders. We need breeders to be honest and totally scrupulous when describing what a person can expect to see from any seed offering. Most breeders are working with fairly limited populations of plants when compared to a corn or soybean breeder. The gold mine times are now in this industry and don't think that they don't know it. They race new crosses to the market as soon as they can come up with the next cool name. The different phenotypes that we all have experienced from the same seeds is evidence of this challenge. Let's face it in alot of cases you can start with land race varieties and make your own crosses. You have just as much chance of "hitting the pot jackpot" with a super good cross that has the perfect combination of traits that you are looking for as the next guy.
Remember as a breeder you need to have a solid end goal in mind when you approach a prospective cross. Then you have to keep these goals in mind constantly as you go through the laborious selection process as you judge and evaluate plants based upon how closely they achieve your goals in the program. It's easy to get side tracked...all of a sudden you have a plant with a strong smell.. or color.. or whatever... but it doesn't achieve your current breeding goals. It's pretty easy to start chasing alot of phenotypes and in the end gain nothing.
As far as pricing differences are concerned, it's really what the market will bear and what they can ask and keep a straight face.
It's fun to jump into the seed company worlds. They provide a great service and offer opportunities to expand your collections genetic base which simply didn't exist back in the old days when I started. Again a very enjoyable discussion. Best of luck!
 

GhettoGro

Well-Known Member
Lots of goof info here, but I'm still confused what to call what I have:

I grew pack of AK47 from Serious Seed (F1)

Pollinated a female with a male. Both from that same pack.

Are my beans called a "backcross" , F2, or both?

They seem to be very stable as far as phenos.

Any input appreciated.

~GG
 

PeytonManning

New Member
I've seen it a couple of times where they state f1 or IBL, and I think it's mostly bragging rights but it also means the genetics are very stable, so it's easy to predict the pheno that will be expressed. I believe you have to backcross to get it f1
 
Top Bottom