Thread: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

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    Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extracti

    Quote Originally Posted by Canyon View Post
    I don't think that CO2 saturation is the problem. Once the CO2 is freed from the molecule, it is a gas. I don't think it can recombine with the cannabinoids to form the acids. Even so there should be equal or at least some THCA present if saturation or pressure is the cause.

    THCA boils at 105c (221f).
    CBDA and CBCA boil at 120c (248f).

    All three have the same formula. THCA has slightly more molecular weight, with 358.4733g V 358.2144 for CBDA and CBCAg.

    I don't know what part these differences have on decarb. It is just an observation.

    Check my numbers, they are from old notes.

    Best
    Gases, especially under pressure, do behave as liquids, if I remember correctly. I also remember that gases have saturation points in closed systems.

    If THCA has a lower boiling point, then it could boil off first. But if this was the case, I wouldn't expect a perfect break - all of one converted and none of the other. That wouldn't make sense at all. There must be something else going on here and I wish I knew.

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    Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extracti

    Quote Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
    Gases, especially under pressure, do behave as liquids, if I remember correctly. I also remember that gases have saturation points in closed systems.

    If THCA has a lower boiling point, then it could boil off first. But if this was the case, I wouldn't expect a perfect break - all of one converted and none of the other. That wouldn't make sense at all. There must be something else going on here and I wish I knew.

    Back to the darkside
    Just to be clear, most of the chemistry that I know was learned in the last three months and I am only on page 110.

    The tests that I had run were "While you wait.". They are relatively cheap at about $40 and I wanted to decide about more tests while I was there. They clam plus or minus 1%. They also said that it may not read CBD or THC above 6% because it was tuned (for lack of a better word) for the acids. Obviously, it read the THC at 7.4 levels. I would tend to treat any non acids that were over 6% as close numbers but not necessarily within 1%. Also, the less than 2% on the THCA can too easily be thought of as none rather than it will not read below 2%

    So, near complete decarb for thc and 18% for CBD. The temperatures that I was running were probably less than I thought because of heat loss of the iron that was exposed. I need to find a better oil bath setup.

    I tracked most of what I could with both tests. I will try to get them posted after some grow room maintenance and trimming a smallish Nightmare Cookies plant.

    I never know
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    Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucudinkydow View Post
    about 10 years ago, a group of researchers from GW Pharmaceuticals from Great Britain applied for a U.S. patent for some fancy pancy extraction method. Buried deeply in the overly complex description of the methodology was there lab results of decarbing cbd and thc.

    Therefore laboratory studies demonstrate the optimum conditions for the decarboxylation of:

    Chemovar producing primarily CBD is 1 hour at 120° C. or 0.5 hour at 140° C.
    Chemovar producing primarily THC to minimise CBN formation, is 1 to 2 hours at 105° C. or 1 hour at 120° C.
    Thin layer chromatography reveals that virtually all of the THCA has disappeared after 4 hours at 105° C. and after 1 hour at 120° C. No THCA is visible at any time point when the herb is heated at 140° C. A small amount of residual staining at this retention value on THC and the presence at low levels of a peak coincident with THCA on HPLC analysis may indicate the presence of a minor cannabinoid rather than residual THCA

    Looks like the sweet spot for both is going to be 120c for 1 hr according to their results. .

    I had not seen this before.

    Unless someone has more to add, I will use these numbers for future tests.

    FYI the best guess sustained high temperatures are 235-140 for 60 minutes for test one. Test 2 was around 220-230 for 1hr and 40 minutes.

    The Thunderstruck plant was only 40 grams and the last high cbd plant that I had in flower. There is not going to be any left after I make caps for another run and test. I am going to start another cbd plant tonight or early next week.

    I will find some better oil containers and tweak whatever I can think of while we wait for plants to grow.

    The plant that I am harvesting is a clone of the Nightmare Cookies plant that we started this thread with. I can run some tests with it if anyone thinks of something. We have raw tests on the mother. However, it has no CBD. I cannot justify buying dispensary cbd cannabis and the windshield time for this project when I have plants in flower.

    Best


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    Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by Canyon View Post
    I had not seen this before.

    Unless someone has more to add, I will use these numbers for future tests.

    FYI the best guess sustained high temperatures are 235-140 for 60 minutes for test one. Test 2 was around 220-230 for 1hr and 40 minutes.

    The Thunderstruck plant was only 40 grams and the last high cbd plant that I had in flower. There is not going to be any left after I make caps for another run and test. I am going to start another cbd plant tonight or early next week.

    I will find some better oil containers and tweak whatever I can think of while we wait for plants to grow.

    The plant that I am harvesting is a clone of the Nightmare Cookies plant that we started this thread with. I can run some tests with it if anyone thinks of something. We have raw tests on the mother. However, it has no CBD. I cannot justify buying dispensary cbd cannabis and the windshield time for this project when I have plants in flower.

    Best


    The problem may be relative boiling points and the pressure involved. Check my logic here please:

    We know that at lower pressure, the boiling point is lower. And at higher pressure the boiling point is raised.

    THCVA has a lower decarb point.

    The CO2 released, as well as any water vapor from water in the material, raises the pressure as you measured.

    Could this increased pressure raise the decarb point for CBDA beyond what you reached? This might explain what happened.

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    Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
    The problem may be relative boiling points and the pressure involved. Check my logic here please:

    We know that at lower pressure, the boiling point is lower. And at higher pressure the boiling point is raised.

    THCVA has a lower decarb point.

    The CO2 released, as well as any water vapor from water in the material, raises the pressure as you measured.

    Could this increased pressure raise the decarb point for CBDA beyond what you reached? This might explain what happened.

    Back to the darkside
    I think the lack of CBD decarb in this experiment is mostly not enough time and too low of a temperature. There may be some difference between an open container and this experimental method, however I don't think is going to cause a large change in decarb time and temperature. I could be wrong.

    I have time, temperature and pressure readings for the two runs along with more questions. There are numbers that don't match the math in ways that I cannot account for. I also have some computed volume, mass, temperature and pressure numbers to compare. I just need the time to type them up.

    I am beginning to think it may be a good idea to do a run with the Nightmare plant and use the last free terpene test to find out if we are making progress with the terpene retention. The raw terpene test form her mother should be close enough to the clone for what we are doing.
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    Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

    More recently the Dutch ran tests and determined that the best time for decarb was 110 C for 110 minutes. We've recommended that in the study hall for the past couple years.

    That GW study broke it down more precisely.

    High CBD chemovar: 15 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 60 min @ 120 C (248 F)

    Or: 15 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 30 min @ 140 C (284 F)

    For a large batch (> 4 oz): 30 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 145 C (293 F) for 55 - 90 min


    High THC chemovar: 15 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 60 - 120 min @ 105 C (221 F)

    Or: 15 - 30 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 110 C (230 F) for 110 min Note the similarity with the Dutch findings.

    Large batch (> 4 oz): 15 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 145 C (293 F) for 45 - 55 min
    Last edited by SweetSue; Yesterday at 06:55 PM. Reason: Corrected temps.
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    Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

    I'm gonna have to dig that material up and double check those THC times and temps, but I remember being confused by them when I initially read the paper. I have a difficult time reconciling that 60 min @ 248 F for the THC batch.

    Edit: Yep..... Had that very wrong. I've made corrections, and now I'll go back and quadruple-check.
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    Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

    Sorry for the confusion guys. I sure am glad you love me.
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    Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by SweetSue View Post
    Sorry for the confusion guys. I sure am glad you love me.
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    Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

    Thanks for the input Sue.
    I have missed most of your threads. I just cannot keep up. You soak up knowledge like a sponge. Then you put it to paper so clearly and fast.

    Thanks for checking in and for what you do.
    Best
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    Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by Canyon View Post
    Thanks for the input Sue.
    I have missed most of your threads. I just cannot keep up. You soak up knowledge like a sponge. Then you put it to paper so clearly and fast.

    Thanks for checking in and for what you do.
    Best
    Canyon.... You guys inspire me, and I'm having so much fun learning I feel like I stumbled into a student's heaven.

    Sometimes I can't keep up with myself either.
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