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Thread: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

  1. #76
    420 Member uptheholler2's Avatar
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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    Hey Dr G! I agree with you odds equation 100 %. But really nothing you describe is a "hybrid". They are in fact nothing more than crosses between species and varieties within that species. I know from my own 20 plus year breeding project how not focusing on the traits you have determined to enhance or reduce can destroy a project. I also understand the siren song to the ears of profiteers. Best of luck in all you grow.

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  2. #77
    420 Member HizzyB's Avatar
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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    Quote Originally Posted by uptheholler2 View Post
    Im not defending Crop King Seeds. They messed up. But I will say this about all seed companies. Far too many of them talk about their lines as if they are hybrids most if not all..are not even close. As I have said before when you drove by cornfield s or bean fields in the summer and you look out you see every single plant in 1000 acres the exact same height , stalk thickness and the exact same stage of growth. Thats a hybrid. As any kid who has detasseled corn in the old days...that takes years and years of focused selection and highly controlled pollination. Thats why seed companies look for fields that dont show that kind of uniformity in growth or in signature genetics tests at the elevator and sue farmers that grow self saved seed. This kind of breeding or using your own saved seed stock is a violation of their patent laws and they pursue damages aggressively. Now back to weed seed companies they should never claim that this or that variety will be certain to have a specific trait. The more reputable ones will tell you what the controlled crosses were and what genetic traits they were focusing upon in making those crosses. A huge problem also arises when you combine a controlling breeder who has lost focus on the genetic traits that the project set out to achieve ...with... the monetary desire to strike while the iron is hot on any trendy new variety. I went with Bodhi Seeds this time because I like and respect their business practices. Again to the moderators... I dont work for Bodhi.. I hust want to help growers grow great weed at a reasonable price. Heck Im probably screwing myself by doing this because varieties that I want to buy often sell out too quickly as it is!! But here us what I like. They simply tell what lines were crossed. Nothing else. They utilize a number of landraces. And finally I often can buy 10 or 11 packs non femd for around 70 bucks! Again I have been growing weed since 1976 I been a life long farmer. And I am a max return on investment kind of guy...a tight wad. Best of luck in all you grow!

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  3. #78
    420 Member JimmyJames905's Avatar
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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorGonzo View Post
    DNA has nothing to do with Neville.
    In the early 90's, Neville sold The Seed Bank to Ben Dronkers, and it became Sensi Seeds. Dronkers still owns the Cannabis Castle, Neville's old fort outside Amsterdam. After various adventures, Neville went back into the seed business a few years back, with Shanti, of Mr. Nice Seeds, who's the only breeder I know of that still runs legit, old school Neville genetic stock.
    As to availability, MNS still has the old school Afghani, Skunk #1, Northern Lights and Hazes available-And those are the absolute cornerstones of pretty much everything that is good today in cannabis.
    Sorry. Brain fart. I meant "Crockett family farms branched off as DNA" zzzzzzzz


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  4. #79
    420 Member dropcroptop's Avatar
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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    Quote Originally Posted by ithinkican View Post
    cks just told me that yes the mix up of ccaf were indeed the new strain sourjack. the 2 i have growing are very different phenos. i wish these seed bank-breeders would give me the seeds from the same flower, so that hopefully the phenos would be more simular to each other ? so, my now 1 sourjack is a beautifull example then of the strain.very sativa dom.the other is short and has some of the northern lights from the sour diesal part. ive been flowering them now for about 4-5 days. cks also changed back their website. so now i know what the heck im growing. thats why i buy the genetics, because ive grown enough of not knowing what it is.so to any new guys- buy good seeds.bag seeds will usually have hermie situation. so all that being said. i like crop king seeds again.!! thanks. THIS IS THE SHORT sourjack.
    Did it stay primarily short for it's life?


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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    Quote Originally Posted by uptheholler2 View Post
    Hey Dr G! I agree with you odds equation 100 %. But really nothing you describe is a "hybrid". They are in fact nothing more than crosses between species and varieties within that species. I know from my own 20 plus year breeding project how not focusing on the traits you have determined to enhance or reduce can destroy a project. I also understand the siren song to the ears of profiteers. Best of luck in all you grow.
    As you know, there are various types of hybrids.
    For the others reading; An F1 hybrid is two wholly unlike plants crossed, (i.e. land race indica and LR sativa) and the resulting progeny will be homogenous, equally dividing the traits of both unlike P1 parents in the progeny.
    Whereas a (F2) cross of F1 hybrids will show very large swings towards either/or P1 parent within the resulting progeny.
    The "poly hybrids" I described in my earlier post, are a re-re-recombination of land races and other hybrids including F1 and F2 hybrids. The results of polys, as I like to call them, (and perhaps my nomenclature isn't exactly scientific, here) are basically a melting pot, or genetic soup, (and frequently a clusterfuck, which is why the idiots cashing in on the seed business put out so much fucking garbage) and generally when line breeding as you know, one doesn't use them. Polys are best for unicorn hunting, not for breeding for specific trait isolation/amplification. Fun stuff. Crop King Seeds cover-up!
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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyJames905 View Post
    Sorry. Brain fart. I meant "Crockett family farms branched off as DNA" zzzzzzzz
    CFF does releases through DNA, as a sort of subsidiary.
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  7. #82
    420 Member JimmyJames905's Avatar
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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorGonzo View Post
    CFF does releases through DNA, as a sort of subsidiary.
    Ya. I know. Crockett was here at the Tweed facility in Smithsfalls delivering their "proprietary strains" to Tweed. Stuff you can't get in their normal run.
    Their lemon skunk was botched by Tweed. (No curing) and their Banana Kush was a lot better but still only partially cured. But that's Tweeds fault not Crockett's. Tweed grows, dries and out the door it goes. I grew banana Kush years ago when it was readily available and I had to "over ripen" it to get the sweet banana taste. Tweeds tasted like green banana.


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  8. #83
    420 Member uptheholler2's Avatar
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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    And that genetic soup is exactly what makes them f1 and f2 crosses not hybrids. In no other crop seed grown is that allowed. And while calling them hybrids sounds better to the grower its in fact incorrect. I get about 20 plus catalogs from vegetable herb and flower breeders. Those are the same standards that weed seed companies should have to adhere to. We as consumers should have reasonable expectations of germination percentages and the appearance and quality of the seeds progeny. That would seem honest and above board. Look veg seed companies give me all of that and a realistic idea of harvest and disease resistance that can be expected. Im just saying germination percentages are easy they simply test each seed lot. As far as botanical phenotypes that can be expected...they wont have that until they turn out actual hybrids

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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    Quote Originally Posted by uptheholler2 View Post
    And that genetic soup is exactly what makes them f1 and f2 crosses not hybrids. In no other crop seed grown is that allowed. And while calling them hybrids sounds better to the grower its in fact incorrect. I get about 20 plus catalogs from vegetable herb and flower breeders. Those are the same standards that weed seed companies should have to adhere to. We as consumers should have reasonable expectations of germination percentages and the appearance and quality of the seeds progeny. That would seem honest and above board. Look veg seed companies give me all of that and a realistic idea of harvest and disease resistance that can be expected. Im just saying germination percentages are easy they simply test each seed lot. As far as botanical phenotypes that can be expected...they wont have that until they turn out actual hybrids

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    You can't make an F1 cross from P1 stock that's of mixed parentage unless the mixed parentage is genetically similar on each side, i.e., a cross of two land race indicas from Afghanistan on one side, and two land race sativas from Mexico on the other. Otherwise it's not a true F1 and won't behave accordingly. F2's are interbred specifically from F1's. Using F2 to describe a "second generation" of a cross is improper nomenclature unless used to describe an in-cross of an F1. Therefore, these "genetic soup" crosses with several parents of questionable &/or unknown lineage cannot possibly be labeled "F1" nor their in-crosses "F2."
    As to germination; Any breeder that releases seeds with a germination test rate after curing of below 90%, is a shitweasel. And progeny should be tested and botanical phenotypes reported on, absolutely, but unlike the early days online, there's really no huge, main gathering site like Overgrow used to be, where growers policed breeders by their results. Back then, people who dropped shitty seeds got hammered, and laughed offline. The way things are now, has lead to the current miasma of utter bollocks being sold as "great genetics," and it's an absolute shitshow, with a few notable exceptions. I rarely need to buy seeds, I've got a fairly large library of exceptional P1 clone stock that's been carefully gathered over the years from all over, and I'm fortunate enough to not have to bother. - Doc
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  10. #85
    420 Member uptheholler2's Avatar
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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    But a filial 1 cross is still a cross breed not a true hybrid. Seed companies are in second place when it comes to online misrepresentation..second only to match making / dating sites. When pot seeds are offered similiarly to other true hybrid vegs and flowers...I will know that as an industry we are making strides

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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    Quote Originally Posted by uptheholler2 View Post
    But a filial 1 cross is still a cross breed not a true hybrid. Seed companies are in second place when it comes to online misrepresentation..second only to match making / dating sites. When pot seeds are offered similiarly to other true hybrid vegs and flowers...I will know that as an industry we are making strides
    That is absolutely incorrect. A filial 1 cross is absolutely a hybrid, in fact, an F1 cross pretty much defines the term "hybrid."

    Here is clarification related to the nomenclature:

    F1 hybrid:
    An F1 hybrid (or filial 1 hybrid) is the first filial generation of offspring of distinctly different parental types.[1] F1 hybrids are used in genetics, and in selective breeding, where it may appear as F1 crossbreed. The term is sometimes written with a subscript, as F1 hybrid.[2][3] Subsequent generations are called F2, F3, etc.

    The offspring of distinctly different parental types produce a new, uniform phenotype with a combination of characteristics from the parents. In fish breeding, those parents frequently are two closely related fish species, while in plant and animal breeding the parents often are two inbred lines. Mules are F1 hybrids between horse and donkey. Today, certain domestic–wild hybrid breeds, such as the Savannah cat, are classified by their filial generation number.

    Gregor Mendel focused on patterns of inheritance and the genetic basis for variation. In his cross-pollination experiments involving two true-breeding, or homozygous, parents, Mendel found that the resulting F1 generation were heterozygous and consistent. The offspring showed a combination of the phenotypes from each parent that were genetically dominant. Mendel’s discoveries involving the F1 and F2 generations laid the foundation for modern genetics.

    Production of F1 hybrids

    In plants:
    Crossing two genetically different plants produces a hybrid seed. This can happen naturally, and includes hybrids between species (for example, peppermint is a sterile F1 hybrid of watermint and spearmint). In agronomy, the term “F1 hybrid” is usually reserved for agricultural cultivars derived from two parent cultivars. These F1 hybrids are usually created by means of controlled pollination, sometimes by hand-pollination. For annual plants such as tomato and maize, F1 hybrids must be produced each season.

    For mass-production of F1 hybrids with uniform phenotype, the parent plants must have predictable genetic effects on the offspring. Inbreeding and selection for uniformity for multiple generations ensures that the parent lines are almost homozygous. The divergence between the (two) parent lines promotes improved growth and yield characteristics in offspring through the phenomenon of heterosis ("hybrid vigour" or "combining ability").

    Two populations of breeding stock with desired characteristics are subjected to inbreeding until the homozygosity of the population exceeds a certain level, usually 90% or more. Typically this requires more than ten generations. Thereafter the two strains must be crossed, while avoiding self-fertilization. Normally this is done with plants by deactivating or removing male flowers from one population, taking advantage of time differences between male and female flowering or hand-pollinating.

    In 1960, 99 percent of all corn planted in the United States, 95 percent of sugar beet, 80 percent of spinach, 80 percent of sunflower, 62 percent of broccoli and 60 percent of onions were F1 hybrids. Beans and peas are not commercially hybridized because they are automatic pollinators, and hand-pollination is prohibitively expensive.

    F2 hybrid:
    F2 hybrids, the result of self or cross pollination of F1s, lack the consistency of F1s, though they may retain some desirable traits and can be produced more cheaply, because hand pollination or other interventions are not required. Some seed companies offer F2 seed at less cost, particularly in bedding plants where consistency is less critical.


    I hope that provides clarity to the readers.

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  12. #87
    420 Member dropcroptop's Avatar
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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    Quote Originally Posted by ithinkican View Post
    CKS customer service sucks !!!!!!!!!!! think about it. with this issue they did int say a fucking thing hoping it would blow over. not be noticed. not affect their reputation.not scare new and old customers away. the most unprofessional way they could of handled it. legal advisors told them shhhhh. they made NO attempt whats ever to alert the public or current customers. they suck. their seeds suck. i have never gotten such a wide difference in the phenos of a strain. they take their seeds out of Tupperware put in your bag with ungloved hands and so on... overall the genetics are great just so much other stuff they don't care about BECAUSE most people growing today are novice beginners.you could give them a bag seed and it wouldn't matter because the grower will think WHAT DID I DO Wrong. i talked to them recently about their inside/outside yield numbers. they didnt know what the heck they were talking about.i had to tell them that their new pics of sourjack was a bubba kush. un real. i assume they will continue to degrade in quality as their greed grows. im using all the old fashioned banks till i have all the genetics i want,+ then i will never buy, just like i don't have to buy weed anymore. one more venting. they have most people believing their customer service is unbelievable. truth is they have millions of seeds and fuck up so much that they give you more seeds easily to keep the wolves off their backs. one more small thing even their thc content is different on their sight depending where u look. IF THEY ARE READING THIS get a new it guy.you should have an it team! and get a new girl to work for you "LISA" has to get tired she works 24 hours a day.
    Damn I just bought the sour jack and I am having some issues aswell. Your telling me they had the wrong picture assigned to it!? I'm a new grower so the picture was a main buying point. Wow


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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    It's been another week of waiting after being told by CKS, again, that they'd get back to me 'immediately'.
    I finally broke down and sent them a pissed off email. Detailed a bit of the runaround I've had with a month of sending them multiple emails and PMs -from multiple addresses- 95% of them getting no reply whatsoever. Mentioned that other contest 'winners' are reporting similar service. Including that Feral got completely different seeds than he ordered- then was told that CKS doesn't ship to Australia (despite the fact the they most definitely do as many as Australians can tell you). He was told he's 'lucky he got anything' and 'try to change countries' (!!!!).

    Got this response today- entire email-
    We do not handle contests. The independent company that runs contests will contact you.
    At this point I'm walking away. If they contact me - fine. If they don't- that's even finer. I'm completely sick of dealing with this so called company.
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    420 Member yyc420's Avatar
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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    Quote Originally Posted by dropcroptop View Post
    Damn I just bought the sour jack and I am having some issues aswell. Your telling me they had the wrong picture assigned to it!? I'm a new grower so the picture was a main buying point. Wow


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    THe Sour Jack Fem. and the CC Auto mix up should have been cleared up. Now if you order Sour Jack...You get Sour Jack. If you order CC Autos, you should be getting CC Autos. Looks like it was only those who ordered the CC Autos in Nov/Dec (myself included) were subject to the mix up. The customer service is definitely improving. Although, I know how frustrating it can be at times.
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  15. #90
    420 Member uptheholler2's Avatar
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    Re: Crop King Seeds cover-up!

    Hey Doc! From a commercial stand point an f1 cross does not define a hybrid. During my years in turf grass field trials both evaluating crosses and growth regulators my Supervisors were very quick to correct me when I referred to a plot number as a promising hybrid. They always said the same thing ,No a hybrid is what we hope to achieve all we have now is controlled crosses. I am not here to argue botanical nomenclature. When I was 10 in my truck patch I had a bell pepper cross with a tomato Since I was a seed saver the next year I had some bell peppers that were like tomatoes inside ...full of locular jelly. That is an unintentional cross not a hybrid. My professors would say that a hybrid is the result of controlled crosses and rigorous trait specific selection. Now. as far as people buying f2 flower or veg crosses , Ive never met them. At trade shows and because I bought such large dollar amounts of veg seed in my day I constantly am given free f2 and up seed to run what seed companies refer to a field trials. Most of the time in a commercial venture its a waste of my time and money. It costs alot to lay miles of plastic. I require uniform harvest windows, fruit size and quality, plant vigor and disease resistance packages. That is simply not some thing I can get with an f2 cross. In the commercial world thats what hybrid means. Its also why the world of dogs has so many weird Labrapoodlemations out there. Again crosses not true breeding hybrids. I wish you the best but the bottom line is that the world of weed is a far ways from offering true hybrid seed stock.
    Best of luck in all you grow!

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