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Thread: Another noob grow!

  1. #46
    420 Member TheFrizz's Avatar
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    Re: Another noob grow!

    Quote Originally Posted by defectndesign View Post
    Thanks Frizz! Glad you made it!
    What's everyone using for ph down? I've read it's all relative. But maybe some hold better than others? I have no idea. Just spitballing



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    I use the GH brand pH kit from Amazon. It was like 15 bucks and includes pH Up, pH Down, a vial, and tester liquid.

    Pretty powerful stuff, a few drops of pH Down is all it takes to adjust the pH of 5 gallons of liquid from 8 down to 6.

    Now, since you already have a way to measure pH, you might not use the vial/tester liquid that comes with it. But personally I like to have a backup method on hand in case my digital pH pen stops working (which they are known to do!).
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  2. #47
    420 Member defectndesign's Avatar
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    Re: Another noob grow!

    Thank you! I needed to hear that. My water if I'm lucky is below 6.3-.5 after I add nutes. And then 10 min after running it's up near 7. Was that something normal for you?


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  3. #48
    420 Member EBnFLO's Avatar
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    Re: Another noob grow!

    For most applications I'd say it couldn't make much difference which brand but with all the special stuff AN has going into the perfect ph, I'd darn sure use their brand of ph down to at least create an illusion of safety for myself Another noob grow!
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  4. #49
    420 Member TheFrizz's Avatar
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    Re: Another noob grow!

    Quote Originally Posted by defectndesign View Post
    Thank you! I needed to hear that. My water if I'm lucky is below 6.3-.5 after I add nutes. And then 10 min after running it's up near 7. Was that something normal for you?


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    Well I am not sure if this was directed at Rifleman or me but I'm gonna chime in anyways

    There are generally three reasons why pH will rise over time in a hydro setup:

    1.) Nutrient uptake- adding nutes lowers the pH of your system, and as the plants consume these nutrients the overall system pH will slowly become more alkaline. This happens over the course of days/weeks, so it wouldn't explain your problem.

    2.) Hydroton runoff- even after a good wash, some of the clay particles can still leach into your system and cause the pH to rise. This happens over the course of hours. However this is still not fast enough to explain your sudden rise in pH.

    3.) The most likely reason for your pH swing from 6.3 to 7 in just 10 minutes is due to a concept in chemistry called "buffering capacity".. Here is a quick overview of what buffering is and how it impacts growing:

    Buffering capacity refers to water's ability to keep the pH stable as acids or bases are added. Most "hard" tap water has a high buffering capacity due to the minerals dissolved in it (mainly carbonates) which means the pH will tend to stay around 7.5-8.

    You said your water has a ppm of 150 so that would definitely be considered "hard" according to this chart. The reason why I have not covered this topic in my own grow is because my tap water only has a ppm of 30 and so the buffering capacity is minimal.

    Classification mg/l or ppm
    Soft- 0 - 17.1
    Slightly hard- 17.1 - 60
    Moderately hard- 60 - 120
    Hard- 120 - 180
    Very Hard (giggity!)- 180 & over

    So, I am 99% sure this is what is happening:

    1.) You add your fresh nutes and balance the pH of your system to 6 ish.
    2.) The carbonates in your tap water neutralize the acids in the system, and the pH begins to rise over several minutes as this chemical reaction takes place and the system reaches equilibrium.


    Think of buffering capacity like an energy shield in a video game. A shield will "absorb" the first few hits so you don't actually lose hit points, just the shield. Same thing with pH, the carbonates in the tap water are like the "shield" preventing the pH from staying down at 6 where you want it. Only once the shield is broken will your pH remain stable In other words, use different water, or use a lot more pH down



    Edit: Let's take the high ground on the DO thread. I am done posting there, he can rant at us til the cows come home but that method won't attract any new clients Meanwhile we can go on with our lives
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  5. #50
    420 Member defectndesign's Avatar
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    Re: Another noob grow!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFrizz View Post
    Well I am not sure if this was directed at Rifleman or me but I'm gonna chime in anyways

    There are generally three reasons why pH will rise over time in a hydro setup:

    1.) Nutrient uptake- adding nutes lowers the pH of your system, and as the plants consume these nutrients the overall system pH will slowly become more alkaline. This happens over the course of days/weeks, so it wouldn't explain your problem.

    2.) Hydroton runoff- even after a good wash, some of the clay particles can still leach into your system and cause the pH to rise. This happens over the course of hours. However this is still not fast enough to explain your sudden rise in pH.

    3.) The most likely reason for your pH swing from 6.3 to 7 in just 10 minutes is due to a concept in chemistry called "buffering capacity".. Here is a quick overview of what buffering is and how it impacts growing:

    Buffering capacity refers to water's ability to keep the pH stable as acids or bases are added. Most "hard" tap water has a high buffering capacity due to the minerals dissolved in it (mainly carbonates) which means the pH will tend to stay around 7.5-8.

    You said your water has a ppm of 150 so that would definitely be considered "hard" according to this chart. The reason why I have not covered this topic in my own grow is because my tap water only has a ppm of 30 and so the buffering capacity is minimal.

    Classification mg/l or ppm
    Soft- 0 - 17.1
    Slightly hard- 17.1 - 60
    Moderately hard- 60 - 120
    Hard- 120 - 180
    Very Hard (giggity!)- 180 & over

    So, I am 99% sure this is what is happening:

    1.) You add your fresh nutes and balance the pH of your system to 6 ish.
    2.) The carbonates in your tap water neutralize the acids in the system, and the pH begins to rise over several minutes as this chemical reaction takes place and the system reaches equilibrium.


    Think of buffering capacity like an energy shield in a video game. A shield will "absorb" the first few hits so you don't actually lose hit points, just the shield. Same thing with pH, the carbonates in the tap water are like the "shield" preventing the pH from staying down at 6 where you want it. Only once the shield is broken will your pH remain stable In other words, use different water, or use a lot more pH down



    Edit: Let's take the high ground on the DO thread. I am done posting there, he can rant at us til the cows come home but that method won't attract any new clients Meanwhile we can go on with our lives
    It was directed at rifleman but your explanation probably couldn't get more thorough! Thank you!

    But it makes sense. The first time I added nutes I ph'd the water to 5.8ish as I mixed then had to ph each site again but it stayed great for a few days and started to creep up again. Eventually to 7.3 this morning. Was hoping it would plateau. This time I didn't ph at all during mixing to see how things would go. When I saw it jump .5 that fast I had to knock it down again.
    Unfortunately I don't have any other options for water ATM. For now I'll try a better brand ph down or even the AN brand like Ebnflow said


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  6. #51
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    Re: Another noob grow!

    Hey, Defect, your grow looks good!

    Just curious... what's your DO level? Do you measure it? Do you realize how vitally important oxygen is or should I belittle you a bit? LMAO!
    (inside joke, although after barking at the Mods I may be outside!)
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  7. #52
    420 Member defectndesign's Avatar
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    Re: Another noob grow!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rider509 View Post
    Hey, Defect, your grow looks good!

    Just curious... what's your DO level? Do you measure it? Do you realize how vitally important oxygen is or should I belittle you a bit? LMAO!
    (inside joke, although after barking at the Mods I may be outside!)
    Thanks Rider! So far so good! No tragedies yet
    ::fingers crossed::
    Lmfao! That dude is an asshat. I'm new to this so I'm trying to learn all the aspects. I asked a simple question then felt like an idiot for asking. Kinda sucks the mods would favor that. Oh well. I know I got a good group of people around me now. Thanks everyone!!!!!!


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  8. #53
    Plant of the Month - November 2015 Member of the Month - March 2016 Rifleman's Avatar
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    Re: Another noob grow!

    Hey DnD. If you contact AN help line they will answer all your questions about their products and how to control pH.(I've had many conversations with them.) Your water is nearly identical to mine. PPM 160ish and a pH around 8 right out of the tap. Be sure to let it sit in a bucket for at least 24 hours to evaporate any chlorine your city puts in the water supply.

    Frizz hit the nail with Buffering Capacity. AN is going to tell you it works best with RO, however the buffering capacity is there and working to make the nutrients bioavailable even at the higher pH readings. I know it sounds wrong, and looks even worse on paper. (I've been recording my readings...aye yi yi.) But it does work better without the addition of PH down which just forces the buffers to work harder and causes pH to swing wildly.

    Don't believe it? Try this, record pH everyday at the same time on the plant you use pH down with, and one plant that you don't adjust pH on. You'll notice they both have similar pH readings until you adjust one down to 5.8ish. The next day you'll be adjusting it again. And the next. End of the week the pH is going to be close in either bucket, and both plants will look similar, but you'll have spent time, effort, and expense checking and adjusting pH in the one.

    I know I sound like a broken record on this, but I've done the comparisons. All the proof is in my journals.
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  9. #54
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    Re: Another noob grow!

    What Frizz and Rifleman said about "perfect pH" products like AN applies to others as well. I use Cutting Edge Solutions and experienced the same pH swings until I stopped chasing pH. I'm just letting it do its thing now, as long as the plants are happy.

    Hey Defect, check your post count. Seems to have gone down a bit, yeah? The cleaners came in and altered the DO thread and locked it.
    Big Brother is watching.
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  10. #55
    420 Member defectndesign's Avatar
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    Re: Another noob grow!

    Thank you guys!
    So when should I adjust ph? If at all? When I saw it over 7 the other morning I got nervous. Granted it was a day away from a res change


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    Re: Another noob grow!

    Quote Originally Posted by defectndesign View Post
    Thank you guys!
    So when should I adjust ph? If at all? When I saw it over 7 the other morning I got nervous. Granted it was a day away from a res change


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    I don't. The only time I use pH down is if I'm adding straight tap water with no nutrients in it to top off a reservoir. Then it is 1ml GH pH down to 1 gallon tap water just to bring it inline with where the reservoir is already. I only started doing that in the last month though with this latest grow. Previously I was adding 3ml nutrient to each gallon of top off water to help control pH but would get nutrient fried leaves toward the end.
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  12. #57
    420 Member defectndesign's Avatar
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    Another noob grow!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rifleman View Post
    I don't. The only time I use pH down is if I'm adding straight tap water with no nutrients in it to top off a reservoir. Then it is 1ml GH pH down to 1 gallon tap water just to bring it inline with where the reservoir is already. I only started doing that in the last month though with this latest grow. Previously I was adding 3ml nutrient to each gallon of top off water to help control pH but would get nutrient fried leaves toward the end.
    Ok cool!
    Would you say you're happy with the AN line?

    And all you use is the mgb and hydroguard? No bloom boosters or other additives?


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  13. #58
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    Re: Another noob grow!

    So what was the answer about oxygen in the res? You got an air stone dude? What about res temp? They look fine so far, seems there's always initial pH problems when first starting out. Once you figure it out should be all smooth sailing. Doesn't look like they're doing it bad yet anyway

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  14. #59
    420 Member defectndesign's Avatar
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    Re: Another noob grow!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tunkers View Post
    So what was the answer about oxygen in the res? You got an air stone dude? What about res temp? They look fine so far, seems there's always initial pH problems when first starting out. Once you figure it out should be all smooth sailing. Doesn't look like they're doing it bad yet anyway

    Aero & DWC Fridge Grow - Sativa Clone - Will Need Help With Keeping Her Small
    Thanks Tunkers!
    Plenty of O2! Trust me! Lol
    Temps are always under 70F
    I agree. All these plastics are probably still off gassing. New hydroton can mess with things. But these wonderful people have been a huge help!


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    Re: Another noob grow!

    Quote Originally Posted by defectndesign View Post
    Ok cool!
    Would you say you're happy with the AN line?
    And all you use is the mgb and hydroguard? No bloom boosters or other additives?
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    Funny you should ask. Just finishing up a side by side using just m,g,b and another with a bunch of their additives. It's all in The Roost.
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