Ebb and Flow Questions

[mrdlouisd]

Been hitting up google, and searching threw the forums pretty hard. But I can't get any solid answers to a few questions I have.

I have a tray that is 2ft x 2ft, and 7in deep. I have 4in rockwool cubes, and really only want to run 5 plants in the beginning. I am going to have to use bag seed at first, and I understand different plants have different requirements. So I'm trying to grow a few females out, and start cloning.

Can I use just the rockwool cubes? I bought a rockwool mat, and can place it under the cubes. But if its not needed Id rather save it and use it to build cubes for future grows.

Do I have to have lava rocks/expanded clay pellets surrounding my rockwool cubes? I understand the displacement it offers, and the reservoir doesn't have to be as large. Also the fact it helps keep your plants upright. But is it mandatory, and is there any other easily obtained substrates that work as well, and are cheap? I'm just worried about my roots growing out of the cubes into the tray. Eg being exposed and what not.

How many times would you flood? I've read that you want to keep the roots wet, but not soaking. I understand how long to flood, but can't figure out how frequent, or a way of figuring that out.

The reservoir, does it have to be a certain size? I think it has to be able to flood the tray 130% each flooding. Does that mean I have to see how much my tray holds, and add 30% to that figure?

I don't mind searching on my own, so if you got keywords that bring up tutorials, info I'm down with that too. Just trying to figure this out so I can get growing.

Also I want to grow from 12/12, I know I have to root clones, but once I throw them in there I want 12/12 from start to finish. I was told I can use my Sensi Bloom A+B for this, and don't need a grow nute. Looking at the nutes in the Sensi, it seems to cover what I'm after. But its always nice to hear from someone that has done it in the past. Just trying to make things as easy as possible on myself.

 

[25micron]

would someone reply i'd like to "understand" myself
lol

 

[fasts102376]

hang in there mr there slow sometimes,but somebody will help you..

 

[mrdlouisd]

Been doing my best to dig up this info. Seems that with rockwool, it retains water very well. Seems black pots work well, but there is a type of rockwool that is unraveled and made to stuff into pots. I have a mat and am thinking on trying to use it to stuff into the pots. My only concern is the fact that it might damage the air spaces in rockwool. Seems you can't squeeze rockwool, it damages those air spaces. Interesting.

I've seen with rockwool, the tray being flooded once daily. Seems that rockwool retains water very well, and can get soaked pretty easy. Thinking this might be one of those try this, but see how it works out for your type of things.

Came across a few instances of using flower nutes straight from 12/12. Only thing I seen was different trays for different stages of growth. I've been kind of pondering how I could divide up this tray of mine, but in the end I'll try to get the ppm's up as high as I can. But still allow new clones not to be fried.

My goal is a perpetual crop, I've seen quite a few forum treads on the topic, with it in action. I spent all this money, and would like a decent return here shortly.

I'm trying to keep these plants around 33-38" when done. Sog seems to fit the perpetual requirements rather well. I just have to play with bagseed, and find a strain/phenotype I enjoy and clone it out. That's probably going to be my hardest challenge, is keeping all these different strains happy with the same nutes. Guess I'll keep the ppm's down. I've tried obtaining seeds via the post, but a letter from homeland security nixed that option.

Still trying to figure out the res size, got an idea but trying to confirm my suspicions. Racefan in a different post answered this question. The rule of thumb for cannabis growing is a 5 gallon reservoir per plant. Now to find a tub that isn't to tall, nor to wide, hahaha kids make you think of things in nursery rhymes hahaha.

Took me lots of digging but finding out what I need to know. Hoping to have this system setup, and testing Monday. Hopefully.

 

[mrdlouisd]

Alright I was just going to update those questions, but I'm to stoned for all that. So I'll just do it from scratch sorry for being so chatty hahaha.

So I'm thinking of going with standard cheapo 6" pots, with rockwool covering the holes in the bottom, with Perlite surrounding my rockwool cube. Rockwool in the bottom being pieces taken from my rockwool mat. More or less to keep the perlite in place.

I'm thinking one to two floods a day should do the trick? I'm sure when I test the system I can get somewhat of an idea what will work best for me.

Then I found out the rule of thumb on res sizes, at being 5 gal per plant. Seems I'm ready to get my feet wet as they say.

 

[Racefan]

the rockwool fluff you mentiom works just like regular rockwool does. i'mm not sure from your question but it appears your running a ebb and flo and want to keep from having to use a rockwool slab you already have. Not sure of why you need containers if your running a ebb and flo tray though? Most just put their plants into a 4" or 6" rockwool cube. Lay out a layer of expanded clay pellets in the ebb and flo tray, set the cube on the pellets and surround the rest of the cube with more pellets. the pellets are 100% reusable. the rockwool fluff isn't and will need to be dicarded. The expanded clay isn't smooth but has all sorts of crevices and retains moisture as well which helps reduce flooding. Am I close?

 

[mrdlouisd]

There's to many cons to using expanded clay pellets. Just the cleaning part turns me off of it. I'm after a perpetual harvest, pulling plants out every couple weeks. Would be easier to use pots instead of rooting it down wouldn't it? Not sure how easy it would be to pull plants in and put new ones in if I went that way.

Just figured the plants would like to be in pots, wouldn't have to worry about roots I think, would get air pruned wouldn't they if they came out the pots? Plus that would inhibit growth within the pots, I'm thinking. I've never put this to use yet so I'm hoping they can be confirmed to ease my mind .

Thanks.

 

[Racefan]

Okay...I guess containers would work. Not sure what the cons are to the expanded clay. never heard any yet. the reusing part is a good thing. it means you never have to buy more or look for a way of discarding rooted rockwool which isn't really a great item for the enviroment. Rockwool takes forever to break down. It's basically fiberglass insulation after all.
The plants roots would like the freedom trays allow over the confinements containers offer IMO but this is your grow and if you want containers then by golly you will have containers.

 

[mrdlouisd]

Can you move plants around easy when they are in expanded clay? I'm for whatever better fits my needs, I want to be able to move the plants around, and would like to keep the roots off each other. Also I can buy perilite/containers/have rockwool on hand. Cheap initial startup cost, I've heard sanitizing clay is a pain, if it spills it goes all over, and the weight of it. Not sure never had it in my hands, or seen it first hand in a grow. All hearsay I suppose, I imagine I will give it a try sometime.

By golly I just want clean, smokable, herb =^). Thanks for getting back to me.

 

[flyfishinrock]

lemme give this a try
gotta agree about washing out the clay, it really really sux. You gotta run a shit load of water through it, in my tub it takes a couple hours to wash it but you have to as the powder is packed with iron. But once its done a wonderful product.

You don't want to step up the size of your cubes, and want to make them movable huh? Easy, at the hydro shop by me they have a "pond basket" its about 8"x8"x6" square (its like a strainer)and would minimize the amount of additional substrate while giving you the ability to maintain a larger root mass and the ability to relocate. You'll still need something to add mass and weight though, i like hydroton but their is also washed gravel (not from the driveway), lava rock is popular in the deserts of Oregon but watch the ph. Theirs others but haven't or wouldn't use them.

As far as the flood timing goes, i try not to flood too often in the early growth stage because I want to force the roots to search for their nutes, so i keep the pumps at 15 min every 3 or 4 hours. When I'm satisfied with the root mass I bump it up to every 2 hours with a 15 min flood.

One more thing to add, a perpetual crop in the 2x2 trey? If that's what you want its gonna be tough as the nute requirements are going to be a hurdle. You may need to consider a second trey for the alternating crop.

Hope that helps a bit, kudos for the side research.

 

[mrdlouisd]

Ended up going with perlite, in 6" pots. I went with what was cheap and easy to get. Will add a new tray in the next few weeks. I was thinking on if it would be to large a challenge having plants at different weeks of flower. Not sure how low I could keep the ppm's and still get results.

So another tray sounds quite a bit easier.

I'm hoping the 4" rockwool cube, and the perlite will be enough for the roots. If not I will have to take a trip and get myself pond basket's.

Its my first hydro grow, so I'm keeping it cheap to see if I like it. Without dumping to much into it.

Building the room tomorrow, and putting up my light/exhaust. Germinating my seeds now.

Thanks for the advice, especially making the roots search out nutes.

Heres a quick shot of my tray/res so far. I am thinking on building a dual chamber res the length of the space I have. Still tossing the idea around.

Forgot I'm not trying to harvest to much, I just need enough for myself and another. So not trying to have a large stockpile.

 

[flyfishinrock]

" I am thinking on building a dual chamber res the length of the space I have. Still tossing the idea around."
thats funny, not ten minutes ago I was doodling a sketch for a a tripple res for when i go camping next year as I too have limited height issue.
had a problem last year while at a wildlife refuge for a week, the ph wacked out on me because the heat evaporated too much.

Good luck

 

[mrdlouisd]

That's what I want to find out, how much the ph jumps around. Thinking a larger res would sure be less fuss. Time shall tell, is a fun hobby, I'm digging not lugging around dirt. I enjoy my dirt outside, my last few grows were messy inside hahaha.

My height is pretty good, its my width that is annoying me.

 

[Racefan]

That's what I want to find out, how much the ph jumps around. Thinking a larger res would sure be less fuss. Time shall tell, is a fun hobby, I'm digging not lugging around dirt. I enjoy my dirt outside, my last few grows were messy inside hahaha.

My height is pretty good, its my width that is annoying me.

Well PH and ppm issues are more apt to be around the smaller the reservoir is. the reason being that any evaporation or use by the plant is a drastic change in the small reservoir. The rule of thumb is 5 gallons of solution per plant.
Perlite huh? well I guess it's disposable. But so is hydroton (expanded clay) if you really think about it. no one says you have to reuse anything. All yoour really looking for is something to support the plants and root system after all.

 

[flyfishinrock]

Seems like they may become top heavy if the plants get very tall, I'm having a hard time not picturing the plants tipping over with such a light medium, then again I have never used perlite except to loosen soil. Please let me know if any problems arise from this decision, as I am very curious.

 

[devious d]

been hitting up google, and searching threw the forums pretty hard. But i can't get any solid answers to a few questions i have.

I have a tray that is 2ft x 2ft, and 7in deep. I have 4in rockwool cubes, and really only want to run 5 plants in the beginning. I am going to have to use bag seed at first, and i understand different plants have different requirements. So i'm trying to grow a few females out, and start cloning.

Can i use just the rockwool cubes? I bought a rockwool mat, and can place it under the cubes. But if its not needed id rather save it and use it to build cubes for future grows.

Do i have to have lava rocks/expanded clay pellets surrounding my rockwool cubes? I understand the displacement it offers, and the reservoir doesn't have to be as large. Also the fact it helps keep your plants upright. But is it mandatory, and is there any other easily obtained substrates that work as well, and are cheap? I'm just worried about my roots growing out of the cubes into the tray. Eg being exposed and what not.

How many times would you flood? I've read that you want to keep the roots wet, but not soaking. I understand how long to flood, but can't figure out how frequent, or a way of figuring that out.

The reservoir, does it have to be a certain size? I think it has to be able to flood the tray 130% each flooding. Does that mean i have to see how much my tray holds, and add 30% to that figure?

I don't mind searching on my own, so if you got keywords that bring up tutorials, info i'm down with that too. Just trying to figure this out so i can get growing.

Also i want to grow from 12/12, i know i have to root clones, but once i throw them in there i want 12/12 from start to finish. I was told i can use my sensi bloom a+b for this, and don't need a grow nute. Looking at the nutes in the sensi, it seems to cover what i'm after. But its always nice to hear from someone that has done it in the past. Just trying to make things as easy as possible on myself.

you need clay balls 4 flood and drain and you can root clones on 12 12

 

[mrdlouisd]

With the layer of rockwool, then the perlite, and rockwool cube its got some weight to it. I will have to keep an eye out for that, the perlite soaks just fine. I think the perlite will work out.

Thanks for all the pointers.

 

[truckdrift]

Been hitting up google, and searching threw the forums pretty hard. But I can't get any solid answers to a few questions I have.

I have a tray that is 2ft x 2ft, and 7in deep. I have 4in rockwool cubes, and really only want to run 5 plants in the beginning. I am going to have to use bag seed at first, and I understand different plants have different requirements. So I'm trying to grow a few females out, and start cloning.

Can I use just the rockwool cubes? I bought a rockwool mat, and can place it under the cubes. But if its not needed Id rather save it and use it to build cubes for future grows.

Do I have to have lava rocks/expanded clay pellets surrounding my rockwool cubes? I understand the displacement it offers, and the reservoir doesn't have to be as large. Also the fact it helps keep your plants upright. But is it mandatory, and is there any other easily obtained substrates that work as well, and are cheap? I'm just worried about my roots growing out of the cubes into the tray. Eg being exposed and what not.

How many times would you flood? I've read that you want to keep the roots wet, but not soaking. I understand how long to flood, but can't figure out how frequent, or a way of figuring that out.

The reservoir, does it have to be a certain size? I think it has to be able to flood the tray 130% each flooding. Does that mean I have to see how much my tray holds, and add 30% to that figure?

I don't mind searching on my own, so if you got keywords that bring up tutorials, info I'm down with that too. Just trying to figure this out so I can get growing.

Also I want to grow from 12/12, I know I have to root clones, but once I throw them in there I want 12/12 from start to finish. I was told I can use my Sensi Bloom A+B for this, and don't need a grow nute. Looking at the nutes in the Sensi, it seems to cover what I'm after. But its always nice to hear from someone that has done it in the past. Just trying to make things as easy as possible on myself.

i run a 4'x4', i only use the large rock wool (9" or 10" squars) i flood 3 times a day, trying to find a percentage is useless(how many cft per second? blah) just turn on the water pump and see how long it takes to fill up to almost the top of the grow tray(i assume you have an overflow, if not just cut a 2 in hole and put 2in{outer diameter} pvc about 2-4 in from the top of the grow tray) when the overflow starts to get used thats how long you want you water pump on for. set a timer for 3 times a day at x amount of minutes watering solved. dont worry about the roots if the fill the 10x10x10 about the time they start to pop out your gana wana harvest.

now as for the 12/12 it might take you 4 months to harvest. grow the clones for 24/0 under cool/warm color florescences, clones dont need a lot of lumes. but they do need heat! make sure to have a heat pad for the little ones. but dont try and grow and flower on 12/12, doesnnt happen in nature shouldnt happen in the grow room

 

[mrdlouisd]

I just was reading your post and may have some thoughts. I have only tried hydro recently put have been very happy. I used the expanded clay (Hydroton) in net pots. I never asked the size but it appears to be about 1 ltr. I flood EVERY 15 mins since day 1. 24/7. Im using a Mega Garden (poorly named lol) not realizing the constrictions on pot size. with 2 gardens I have trouble with 8 plants. Due to root mass under pot there is a 1" thick mass that isnt stable, I have trouble keeping upright unless weighting with rock slabs but that is a balance as to not squish the roots. I purchased the Ebb n Grow because of the large pots (2 gallon) wich support trees and are stable. As to reusing hydroton...thought I would have to replace everytime but its pretty easy. When harvesting cut off trunk,drain water, and air dry. Cleans up easily in week or so. As far as resovoir limitations...not an issue ..NOW. The resovoir is aprox 8 gallons. I use a gallon per day per system. I keep 5 gallons ready for top off and change whole thing every 7 days w/o fail. It works but making water 2-3 times per week and Its easier to use a larger resovoir...55 gallons or larger. But you still need to flush the resovoir weekly as well as monitoring the level for top off. I havent used the Ebb system yet bit I expect it will be quite similar. That being said..if you dont need a massive yield then your system should work quite nicely. props to Racefan for advice

Thanks for the words of wisdom. I'm just looking for a bit a month is all. I can always fall back on my connections if I don't get what I'm after. So not to big a worry, just trying to cut down my expenses. 650 a month is killing me.

I was going to write up a journal this evening when the kiddies are asleep.

 

[Caber1]

Are you still growing with the ebb and flow mrdlouisd?

the last post was a while ago and I'm curious.