Flower molasses mix pH problems

cnile

Well-Known Member
First time with molasses.




Problem come in 24 hours after making and bubbling ---the ph is way off.


So I make it:

Molasses
Touch of cane sugar
Floranova bloom.

Ph is 6.4 without any adjustments.

Ph down added to 5.8

24 hours later ph is 4.3


Is that normal? Did I not add enough oxygen?
Is it the organic matter in the floranova interacting with sugars?
Would pure hydro nutes fix this?

I can't have a swing like that happen inside my coco.

Are there normal swings in ph with molasses, like with most other nutes (slow rise in ph after inital adjustment to 5.8, the greatest swing being in first 24 hours)


Thanks



Ps. I think general hydroponics calls it voodoo juice. What I'm trying to make pretty much.
 
Ph is 6.4 without any adjustments.
Ph down added to 5.8
24 hours later ph is 4.3
Is that normal? Did I not add enough oxygen?
Is it the organic matter in the floranova interacting with sugars?
Would pure hydro nutes fix this?

Weird. I don't have any experience with molasses. I do have a lot of experience with measuring and adjusting the pH of solutions. My guess (and it's only a guess) is that you simply overcorrected with pH Down. Was the mixture actually getting viscous because of all the added sugar? If it was that concentrated, I could easily see how it simply didn't get mixed enough to give you the true, equilibrium pH while you were correcting and only later stabilized at pH 4.3.

I have taken a lot of organic chemistry courses, and I can't think of any funny reaction that might occur between what is essentially a salt solution--a somewhat acidic salt solution--and a sugar solution. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but operating on the assumption that the simplest explanation is usually the best one, I have to guess that you just needed to mix more and wait longer for the solution to equilibrate as you added the pH down.

I hope maybe that helps?

Good luck and happy mixing! :thumb:
 
Could be your floranova. I use molasses once every two weeks and my experience is that it acts as a bit of a buffer to pH changes. What material you growing in? Soil?
 
Weird. I don't have any experience with molasses. I do have a lot of experience with measuring and adjusting the pH of solutions. My guess (and it's only a guess) is that you simply overcorrected with pH Down. Was the mixture actually getting viscous because of all the added sugar? If it was that concentrated, I could easily see how it simply didn't get mixed enough to give you the true, equilibrium pH while you were correcting and only later stabilized at pH 4.3.

I have taken a lot of organic chemistry courses, and I can't think of any funny reaction that might occur between what is essentially a salt solution--a somewhat acidic salt solution--and a sugar solution. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but operating on the assumption that the simplest explanation is usually the best one, I have to guess that you just needed to mix more and wait longer for the solution to equilibrate as you added the pH down.

I hope maybe that helps?

Good luck and happy mixing! :thumb:

Thanks. I'll try again. It was probably over correct with ph down. The solution was very mild so a drop of ph made big difference.
 
I've had problems with PH in the past and I have resolved it with a flush. I can't say I've had any issues with PH and molasses - which I've used almost every grow. Usually a teaspoon per liter.:Namaste:

Are you measuring the PH of run off? I know the PH in my run off is lower than the PH of my water/feeding. The drying out process causes the PH at the roots to drop as the salts become more concentrated - which is why it's usually resolved with a good flush.

What size is your container and how are you watering?
 
I've had problems with PH in the past and I have resolved it with a flush. I can't say I've had any issues with PH and molasses - which I've used almost every grow. Usually a teaspoon per liter.:Namaste:

Are you measuring the PH of run off? I know the PH in my run off is lower than the PH of my water/feeding. The drying out process causes the PH at the roots to drop as the salts become more concentrated - which is why it's usually resolved with a good flush.

What size is your container and how are you watering?

I think there's some miscommunication.

I hadn't watered anything.

I mixed it. Phed it. Then came back and it was a very unexpected ph. I'm curious if this is normal or am I messing it up or.


I did it again two days almost now.

27490062bc32798d7668ee8473ca4b01.jpg



Smells good looks good


I mixed it.
24 hrs later - ph 6.4
Added ph- to 5.8 extremely carefully mixed well, waited 20 minutes for minor adjustments to take before double checking

Ph was 5.8

24 hrs later

Ph 4.3


What is going on there. Do I ph up and feed or is it going to decide to go low again that drastic?
 
What is going on there. Do I ph up and feed or is it going to decide to go low again that drastic?

Interesting. What is your water like? Is it hard? I guess I'm asking, "If you just pH some of your local water (without the sugars added) and let it sit, does that drift too?"

Weird.
 
Could be your floranova. I use molasses once every two weeks and my experience is that it acts as a bit of a buffer to pH changes. What material you growing in? Soil?

I'm looking at this again and I think RobbieBurn is right and it is the FloraNova Bloom that's causing this funny drift. Here's what it says at the GH FN site (emphasis mine):
FloraNova's unique combination of primary and secondary nutrients and pH buffers keeps nutrients fully water-soluble... Super concentrated and pH stabilized.​

So FN Bloom is pH stabilized, which means it has a mix of chemicals in it that work to keep the pH of the solution from changing. When you come along and add an acid (ph Down) or a base (pH Up) to try to change that stabilized pH, you disrupt the equilibrium pH and get unexpected results. The reason there is a time delay is that it can take some time for the chemicals to interact. For instance, if you put a piece of chalk in some vinegar, it will raise the pH, but only slowly.

My first thought on how to deal with this would be to try using GH's Flora series instead (FloraGro, FloraBloom, and FloraMicro.)

That's my best guess. I'm pretty sure I'm right, though.
 
I'm looking at this again and I think RobbieBurn is right and it is the FloraNova Bloom that's causing this funny drift. Here's what it says at the GH FN site (emphasis mine):
FloraNova's unique combination of primary and secondary nutrients and pH buffers keeps nutrients fully water-soluble... Super concentrated and pH stabilized.​

So FN Bloom is pH stabilized, which means it has a mix of chemicals in it that work to keep the pH of the solution from changing. When you come along and add an acid (ph Down) or a base (pH Up) to try to change that stabilized pH, you disrupt the equilibrium pH and get unexpected results. The reason there is a time delay is that it can take some time for the chemicals to interact. For instance, if you put a piece of chalk in some vinegar, it will raise the pH, but only slowly.

My first thought on how to deal with this would be to try using GH's Flora series instead (FloraGro, FloraBloom, and FloraMicro.)

That's my best guess. I'm pretty sure I'm right, though.

Yea that's the first thing I said. Should I switch to my hydro nutes. I got micro grow bloom also. I think it's the organics in it breaking down from bacteria or perhaps your ph idea.

Although with the stabilized ph idea I'm not really understanding that. I always though they simply buffer their end solution to be "stabilized" meaning once placed in the bottle it's been brought to a equilibrium just as you said. But gen hydro also say to ph the solution once mixed. So they understand it's going to be adjusted and I'm sure if that was a problem it would have been addressed by the company.

Maybe I will do again but not ph at all and check it in the 2 days....,


Everyone makes tea... Wtf

Either way I'll calling some companies to see what they have to say.
 
I'm looking at this again and I think RobbieBurn is right and it is the FloraNova Bloom that's causing this funny drift. Here's what it says at the GH FN site (emphasis mine):
FloraNova's unique combination of primary and secondary nutrients and pH buffers keeps nutrients fully water-soluble... Super concentrated and pH stabilized.​

So FN Bloom is pH stabilized, which means it has a mix of chemicals in it that work to keep the pH of the solution from changing. When you come along and add an acid (ph Down) or a base (pH Up) to try to change that stabilized pH, you disrupt the equilibrium pH and get unexpected results. The reason there is a time delay is that it can take some time for the chemicals to interact. For instance, if you put a piece of chalk in some vinegar, it will raise the pH, but only slowly.

My first thought on how to deal with this would be to try using GH's Flora series instead (FloraGro, FloraBloom, and FloraMicro.)

That's my best guess. I'm pretty sure I'm right, though.

Incorrect. .
FloraNova is built to be ph adjusted.
Trick is, to mix your nutrients thoroughly, like w/a recirc. pump, or mixer, before taking readings.
(Fyi: The 'Nova Bloom is the only necessary part. Search "FloraNova Lucas Formula" for an explanation.)

That said, Flora Series are better nutrients, as they're able to be micromanaged by variable mixing recipes.

Source: Me & Mine have used GenHydro nutes extensively, for decades.
 
Incorrect. .
FloraNova is built to be ph adjusted.
Trick is, to mix your nutrients thoroughly, like w/a recirc. pump, or mixer, before taking readings.
(Fyi: The 'Nova Bloom is the only necessary part. Search "FloraNova Lucas Formula" for an explanation.)

That said, Flora Series are better nutrients, as they're able to be micromanaged by variable mixing recipes.

Source: Me & Mine have used GenHydro nutes extensively, for decades.

Yes I agree. I've been on cannastats nute profile maker trying to get my npkmgcas to what I want on flower girls and I can't do it easily with one part.

Not to mention I'm stuck with all the k in the grow for the first few weeks of my babies.

I have the flora3 part but what are u doing dor the micros? Just some floralicious plus or seaweed or something ??
 
I think it's the organics in it breaking down from bacteria or perhaps your ph idea.

I'm sure it's not bacteria. I'm 99.99% sure you're just fighting a buffering system and that has a time delay for reactions to occur and the solution to come to equilibrium.

I looked at my FloraBloom and it has buffers too.

You're not trying to adjust the pH of the concentrated FloraBloom without diluting it in water, are you? That definitely won't work.
 
Yes I agree. I've been on cannastats nute profile maker trying to get my npkmgcas to what I want on flower girls and I can't do it easily with one part.

Not to mention I'm stuck with all the k in the grow for the first few weeks of my babies.

I have the flora3 part but what are u doing dor the micros? Just some floralicious plus or seaweed or something ??

3 part:
Step 1: Toss Grow (green) in garbage.
Step 2: 6ml Micro, 9ml Bloom/Gallon for Veg @ 6.0-6.2ph

For coco (for ProMix BX delete CalMag)



*GenHydro Flora Series, Micro & Bloom ONLY

*GH CaliMagic (cal/mg)

*GH Kool Bloom powder

*GH Kool Bloom Liquid (0-10-10)

1. Presoak coco. 6.5 gallons per 5.5kg brick
PH @ 6.0-6.2 (!!)
Recipe:
6ml Micro/gallon
9ml Bloom/gallon
4ml/gallon CaliMagic


Based on a 9 week flower cycle:
PH ALWAYS AT 6.0-6.2
FEED 1x/day, EVERY DAY

Nutrients:

Week 1-4:
6ml Micro/gallon
9ml Bloom/gallon
4ml/gallon CaliMagic
(EC 1.2, ppm 840)

Week 5:
6ml Micro/gallon
9ml Bloom/gallon
1tsp./gallon KB powder
(EC 1.3, ppm 930)

Week 6:
6ml Micro/gallon
9ml Bloom/gallon
(EC 1.1, ppm 770)

Week 7:
6ml Micro/gallon
9ml Bloom/gallon
1tsp./gallon KB LIQUID
(EC 1.3, ppm 900)

Week 8:
9ml Bloom/gallon ONLY (pre-flush)
EC .8, ppm 560

Week 9:
FLUSH, 6.0ph water @ < 100ppm[/QUOTE]
 
I'm sure it's not bacteria. I'm 99.99% sure you're just fighting a buffering system and that has a time delay for reactions to occur and the solution to come to equilibrium.

I looked at my FloraBloom and it has buffers too.

You're not trying to adjust the pH of the concentrated FloraBloom without diluting it in water, are you? That definitely won't work.


I should have remembers to say this. I went to like 70ppm molasses and damn near no floranova the first time.


Second time I did not add nova
 
3 part:
Step 1: Toss Grow (green) in garbage.
Step 2: 6ml Micro, 9ml Bloom/Gallon for Veg @ 6.0-6.2ph

Yea I've heard a a lot about it. It's a flower ratio all the way. 1-1-2 and so many ppl have good results.

Are u in coco?
 
3 part:
Step 1: Toss Grow (green) in garbage.
Step 2: 6ml Micro, 9ml Bloom/Gallon for Veg @ 6.0-6.2ph

For coco (for ProMix BX delete CalMag)



*GenHydro Flora Series, Micro & Bloom ONLY

*GH CaliMagic (cal/mg)

*GH Kool Bloom powder

*GH Kool Bloom Liquid (0-10-10)

1. Presoak coco. 6.5 gallons per 5.5kg brick
PH @ 6.0-6.2 (!!)
Recipe:
6ml Micro/gallon
9ml Bloom/gallon
4ml/gallon CaliMagic


Based on a 9 week flower cycle:
PH ALWAYS AT 6.0-6.2
FEED 1x/day, EVERY DAY

Nutrients:

Week 1-4:
6ml Micro/gallon
9ml Bloom/gallon
4ml/gallon CaliMagic
(EC 1.2, ppm 840)

Week 5:
6ml Micro/gallon
9ml Bloom/gallon
1tsp./gallon KB powder
(EC 1.3, ppm 930)

Week 6:
6ml Micro/gallon
9ml Bloom/gallon
(EC 1.1, ppm 770)

Week 7:
6ml Micro/gallon
9ml Bloom/gallon
1tsp./gallon KB LIQUID
(EC 1.3, ppm 900)

Week 8:
9ml Bloom/gallon ONLY (pre-flush)
EC .8, ppm 560

Week 9:
FLUSH, 6.0ph water @ < 100ppm
[/QUOTE]


Thanks. I may try it. Ever taken to lab?
 
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