Calcium deficiency just into flowering

dawook4420

Active Member
I noticed a calcium deficiency only a week after I flipped to 12/12 and I have since treated it (I think) successfully. Now, three weeks into flower, though, the affected leaves at the canopy are all severely damaged and curled upwards. The rest of the plant seems fine and the flowers are already looking great after three weeks. Should I cut off the damaged fan leaves or should I wait for them to drop off naturally? (Their stems are all surprisingly firm despite the damage to the leaves.)
 
Remote troubleshooting is hard. Remote troubleshooting without a photo and a description of the grow (soil, nutes, lights, etc.) is just about impossible.

As Jerry McGuire said, "Help ME help YOU!" ;)
 
Yeah, sorry. Usually when I start a thread I give a pretty lengthy description with all the info you requested. Then I get few, if any responses. But I'm a pretty resourceful guy and I try to do my own research before posting. I can post some pictures for you tomorrow if you want, but I'm quite certain it's a calcium deficiency - potentially caused by a pH issue. I was only giving half dose nutes (GO Box) so I upped the Ca-Mag to a full dose and I've been monitoring the pH closer. I don't think I see any new damage, but many of the fan leaves atop the canopy are toast. As I said, the rest of the plant looks healthy and the buds bountiful already. And the plant's sister is in perfect shape. (They're Northern Lights photos in FFHF with a 1000W LED - actual draw 350 or something). I just figured it might do the plant good to get rid of the dying leaves on top to allow more sunlight to the healthy leaves below, but I'm also rather hesitant to start chopping off fan leaves three weeks into flower. I prefer to just inspect my plants every few days and remove any leaves that fall off easily. Thus far the toasted leaves are holding firm. Again, I'll post some pics tomorrow, but that's really all I'm looking for at this point. Thanks for your response!
 
Ok, so here's some picks and an explanation of what's going on. It would be nice to get some opinions. We'll see.

As mentioned, I have 2 Northern Lights photos growing in Happy Frog under a 1000W LED (actual draw somewhere around 350). I flipped to 12/12 on 6/25 and flowering began 3 weeks and 2 days ago. I give GO Box nutes at half doses with 1 1/2 gallons of water per plant, every 4 days. Now, just before I flipped I started noticing some damaged leaves but I flipped anyways as one of the plants was outgrowing its pot and I couldn't go any larger. Here are some pics.
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I thought this was a deficiency of some sort at the time but I went on the "Ask Us Anything" thread (which I try not to abuse) and was told it looked like a pH issue. So I tested my local tap water which had been steady at 7.0 since I first started growing and low and behold, it went up to an 8.5 (or higher). Unfortunately I do not have a good pH testing method as I cannot justify to my wife spending another $100 or so for a pH pen. What I have are these three methods below and neither of the prods work worth a damn. So that leaves me with the drops which isn't particularly accurate.
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Anyways, I was told to flush with pH'd water and test the runoff until I get it in the 6.5 range I look for. I did that, but the very first bit of runoff I got was already a 6.5, so I didn't bother to continue the flush. I just began checking my water's pH with every feeding, rather than just once every few weeks as I had been doing. Since then the plants have looked great. They stretched and the new growth looked healthy until a couple weeks later when this formed.
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Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but this looks exactly like the pictures I've seen of calcium deficiencies online. It occurred at the canopy just like I read and I also read that calcium deficiencies are common with pH fluctuations, particularly under 6.2. So a pretty easy diagnosis I figured. In order to counteract this, I increased the Ca-Mag to a full dose instead of a half and I've been trying to pH my water closer to a 7.0, however, it doesn't seem to matter how much pH Up I use (I haven't dared go above 2 tsp per gallon), I'm still getting around a 6.5. Anyways, fast forward 2-3 weeks and this is what I have now.
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I'm honestly not too concerned with it at this point. It doesn't seem to be spreading much beyond the few really badly affected areas, and I read there is nothing that can be done for the affected leaves to recover, even during veg. So I figured I'd just let them die and I'd pick them off if they don't fall off on their own. But here we are they look cooked but the stems are still holding strong. So hence my question, should I cut them off to allow more light to get to the lower, greener leaves, or should I keep waiting it out and let nature take its course?
 
I should also mention that this problem only occurs with one of my two plants, both of which have the exact same environment. Obviously the affected plant is the one to the left.
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The only difference with these plants occurred way back when I first up-potted my babies into 3 gallon airpots. As you can see here, I damaged the roots of one plant when I was trying to pry it from its first pot.
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It was evident very early that the plant with the damaged roots grew more slowly. For the sake of trying to make this fun, I included a little slideshow. I hope the pics all come out in the right order. The plant with the damaged roots is the one to the right.
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So as a result of that root damage, the plant to the left grew MUCH faster and it filled out so much more - which really made it more difficult to care for. What I wonder now is did the fact that the plant grew bigger and fast mean that it requires more nutrients in its water than the slower plant with the damaged roots? As I said, the problem has only been with the larger plant and they get the same water, the same soil, the same light, everything. So if anyone has any input on this theory of mine, that would be much appreciated. Happy growing!
 

THAT is exactly what I think was my calcium deficient leaves looked like (and exactly what the Ca-deficiency photos at my grow guru Nebula Haze's website look like).

I had cut back from 2.5 ml/gallon of CALiMAGic to 1.25 per the grow schedule, and I thin that's when it went south. (My tapwater is 28 PPM so almost RO--no minerals at all.)
 
THAT is exactly what I think was my calcium deficient leaves looked like (and exactly what the Ca-deficiency photos at my grow guru Nebula Haze's website look like).

I had cut back from 2.5 ml/gallon of CALiMAGic to 1.25 per the grow schedule, and I thin that's when it went south. (My tapwater is 28 PPM so almost RO--no minerals at all.)

That was the beginning stages before the leaves got roasted. I was only giving 1 tsp of Ca-Mag up to that point. As I said, half dose. That was fine for my first grow which were 6 smaller plants squeezed into the same 4x2 space. I upped it to 1 1/2 for a few feedings when this issue first popped up. When that didn't do the trick I upped it to 2 tsp. I think it's getting enough calcium now.

As for your other question, I thought the light might have had something to do with it too, but now I really don't think so. I raised it a bit anyways, perhaps too high now. But the light is rectangular to fit the shape of the tent. It's supposed to be ideal for a 5x2.5 space, so there should be pretty even light distribution I would think. Yes, the affected area is under the middle of the light, but it's more toward the rear than the front, and the plant to the right has no problems whatsoever. It's no more or less under the middle of the light, just to the opposite side. So unless there are some malfunctioning diodes or something in that one part of the light, I have to lean toward the issue being more to do with the low calcium intake to the overall size and requirements of the plant. At this point there is nothing to do to fix it. All I can do is control it as best I can, which brings me back to my original question of whether or not it would be a good idea to trim off the damaged fan leaves so more light can penetrate to the lower leaves - or would that cause more harm than good? Any suggestions?
 
That was the beginning stages before the leaves got roasted. I was only giving 1 tsp of Ca-Mag up to that point. As I said, half dose. That was fine for my first grow which were 6 smaller plants squeezed into the same 4x2 space. I upped it to 1 1/2 for a few feedings when this issue first popped up. When that didn't do the trick I upped it to 2 tsp. I think it's getting enough calcium now.

As for your other question, I thought the light might have had something to do with it too, but now I really don't think so. I raised it a bit anyways, perhaps too high now. But the light is rectangular to fit the shape of the tent. It's supposed to be ideal for a 5x2.5 space, so there should be pretty even light distribution I would think. Yes, the affected area is under the middle of the light, but it's more toward the rear than the front, and the plant to the right has no problems whatsoever. It's no more or less under the middle of the light, just to the opposite side. So unless there are some malfunctioning diodes or something in that one part of the light, I have to lean toward the issue being more to do with the low calcium intake to the overall size and requirements of the plant. At this point there is nothing to do to fix it. All I can do is control it as best I can, which brings me back to my original question of whether or not it would be a good idea to trim off the damaged fan leaves so more light can penetrate to the lower leaves - or would that cause more harm than good? Any suggestions?

Oh I would definitely cut away the dead stuff–for aesthetic reasons if nothing else!

Have you ever looked at the light intensity diagrams for LED grow lights? (Their light intensity "footprint"?) The ones I have seen are nowhere near as even as you'd hope and expect. Instead, they have a high intensity hot spot under the center. Your plants so look like they got fried in the hot spot that I'd be really surprised if it was otherwise.
 
Oh I would definitely cut away the dead stuff—for aesthetic reasons if nothing else!

Have you ever looked at the light intensity diagrams for LED grow lights? (Their light intensity "footprint"?) The ones I have seen are nowhere near as even as you'd hope and expect. Instead, they have a high intensity hot spot under the center. Your plants so look like they got fried in the hot spot that I'd be really surprised if it was otherwise.

That's very interesting. I never read that before. This is a significantly more powerful light than the 600W LED I used for my first grow. So perhaps then you're right. Thank you. I already raised the light once. Maybe I should raise it again. And maybe it would be a good idea to start rotating my plants every few days to limit exposure to any one particular area. I did that my last grow, but as I was taking a lot of pictures earlier in this grow, I always positioned them the same so as to watch the effects over a period of time. What do you think? Any other suggestions how to deal with the issue? Thank you again for your advice. You have been most helpful!
 
Have you ever seen the fancy motorized track rigs that move a light back and forth over the grow area? Maybe you need one of those or a motorized pendulum. ;) Or just moving your plants around, though I expect that moving the light up has helped already. It must be some light!

BTW, those soil probe things you pictured earlier are universally reviled around here. A Jellas pH pen is about $15 and does the job just fine. pH meters are fundamentally very simple, but you MUST calibrate them carefully and maintain the delicate glass bulb by keeping it clean and always wet.

I used pH drops for years with an aquarium, but trying to read the subtle and important shade differences in te colored drops is just too hard to get good results. You need a pH pen. Not much money and money well spent!

Here's what I have that works fine. I have used lab devices that cost 100 times as much, but this one will do!
Jellas pH pen
pH 7 calibration solution

And while you're at it, everyone needs a PPM meter. This one is cheap and works fine:
Dissolved solids meter--about $20
 
Have you ever seen the fancy motorized track rigs that move a light back and forth over the grow area? Maybe you need one of those or a motorized pendulum. ;) Or just moving your plants around, though I expect that moving the light up has helped already. It must be some light!

BTW, those soil probe things you pictured earlier are universally reviled around here. A Jellas pH pen is about $15 and does the job just fine. pH meters are fundamentally very simple, but you MUST calibrate them carefully and maintain the delicate glass bulb by keeping it clean and always wet.

I used pH drops for years with an aquarium, but trying to read the subtle and important shade differences in te colored drops is just too hard to get good results. You need a pH pen. Not much money and money well spent!

Here's what I have that works fine. I have used lab devices that cost 100 times as much, but this one will do!
Jellas pH pen
pH 7 calibration solution

And while you're at it, everyone needs a PPM meter. This one is cheap and works fine:
Dissolved solids meter--about $20

Can't say I've seen any motorized racks for sale but that would be impractical anyways. The light itself probably takes up 2/3 of the surface area and it provides complete coverage throughout the tent. So there wouldn't be much room for it to move. My old 600W on the other hand, maybe. But that seems a bit much for a simple grow of only two plants. I tried moving the light up even more to be safe but I was pretty much at the max height anyways, so here's to hoping.

If that pH pen works as well as you say than I will be very grateful. All the ones I've seen have been very expensive. I already ordered it along with the solution you suggested. I haven't ordered the PPM meter yet, though. To be honest with you, I don't understand how PPM works - what it measures, good and bad levels, etc. Would you care to explain?

Thanks again! You have been SOOOO helpful!
 
I was kidding about buying a motorized track. I just saw one in a couple of videos and thought it was cool. ;)
The Jella's brand pen has 0.1 resolution, which is all you need. Just keep it wet (ideally in calibration solution) and keep it calibrated and it will give you at least a year of good service. The key is to keep the glass bulb wet and keep it calibrated.

An electroconductivity (EC) meter, commonly called a PPM tester, just measures how much electric current passes between two platinum-plated electrodes. Then it converts that into parts per million of ions, which all sounds very techno, but the effect is just when you mix up a batch of nutes and stick the pen in, it tells you it's, say, 400 parts per million of fertilizer ions (nitrates, carbonates, etc.).
  • I know from experience that 400 PPM is the highest concentration that the little dwarf plant I'm growing can take before its tips start to turn yellow.
  • Checking the PPMs also helps me to make sure that I'm mixing things right and consistently. I have mixed up a batch of nutes that I know should be 400 PPM and had it come out 300. I forgot to add something.
  • In a coco grow, you measure the PPMs of the runoff. If I'm putting in 400 and getting out 320, I know the plant is eating and all is well. If I'm getting out 500 PPM that means a hazardous excess has developed.
  • In a hydro grow I'm always checking the reservoir to see how the concentration looks.

It doesn't take long before you get a feel for it and you just start thinking in PPMs and you check all the time and you talk to other growers in the same language. A PPM meter very quickly gets to be a must have. Knowledge is power, so knowing your PPMs gives you power! I can't imagine growing without one now. I even check the PPMs of my tomatoes and flowers. Admittedly, that's a bit much, but I have some kick-ass tomatoes and some beautiful flowers!
 
I was kidding about buying a motorized track. I just saw one in a couple of videos and thought it was cool. ;)
The Jella's brand pen has 0.1 resolution, which is all you need. Just keep it wet (ideally in calibration solution) and keep it calibrated and it will give you at least a year of good service. The key is to keep the glass bulb wet and keep it calibrated.

An electroconductivity (EC) meter, commonly called a PPM tester, just measures how much electric current passes between two platinum-plated electrodes. Then it converts that into parts per million of ions, which all sounds very techno, but the effect is just when you mix up a batch of nutes and stick the pen in, it tells you it's, say, 400 parts per million of fertilizer ions (nitrates, carbonates, etc.).
  • I know from experience that 400 PPM is the highest concentration that the little dwarf plant I'm growing can take before its tips start to turn yellow.
  • Checking the PPMs also helps me to make sure that I'm mixing things right and consistently. I have mixed up a batch of nutes that I know should be 400 PPM and had it come out 300. I forgot to add something.
  • In a coco grow, you measure the PPMs of the runoff. If I'm putting in 400 and getting out 320, I know the plant is eating and all is well. If I'm getting out 500 PPM that means a hazardous excess has developed.
  • In a hydro grow I'm always checking the reservoir to see how the concentration looks.

It doesn't take long before you get a feel for it and you just start thinking in PPMs and you check all the time and you talk to other growers in the same language. A PPM meter very quickly gets to be a must have. Knowledge is power, so knowing your PPMs gives you power! I can't imagine growing without one now. I even check the PPMs of my tomatoes and flowers. Admittedly, that's a bit much, but I have some kick-ass tomatoes and some beautiful flowers!

First off, don't play with me. I'm gullible lol. But seriously, I don't know why I've never heard such an easy to understand explanation of PPMs. I will definitely look into a PPM meter. I never imagined when I first decided to grow that there would be so many things that I need, from a tent to a fan and ducting and even a dehumidifier. Fortunately I've got all the major stuff. So another $15 here and there isn't so bad. Thank you so much for the help! I feel like there's something else I want to ask you because you're so knowledgeable, but alas I have forgotten - which is probably for the better. I hate to monopolize your time. So thanks again and happy growing!
 
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