Breeding Questions

[Awakened Gen]

hi everyone. I am a new member but not New to growing. I wanted to start a small thread on breeding

So I have a solid gene mother that I've had for about 4 years, and I'm at the point in my growing adventure that I would like to start a small breeding program. After doing lots and lots of reading I understand how time consuming it is. I understand F1s, F2s etc.
So, lol sorry if this is confusing to people.
I have this female I want to breed with a male I have chosen out of a 12 pack and ended up with 4 males, got rid of two and kept two. I know if I pollinate my female I will end up with F1 beans. And if I chose a male F1 and female F1 I will get F2s.
My question starts at Backcrossing. When breeding and one goes to Backcross, say a F1 or F2. Are most growers/breeders Backcrossing an F1 or F2 male to the female P1?
Like do I take a F1 male and backcross with the P1 female? Or am I choosing a F1 female and Backcrossing it with the P1 male? If P1 male is the answer how does one go about that? Clone the male and back cross the F1 female with the P1 male clone?
If the answer is backcross with a F1 male to the P1 Fenale, how do I know which male to chose from, from the F1 stock of beans? Guessing from growth and vigor?
My plan is to take this Fenale I have and cross it with one of the males I choose and get F1s then breed those (best of my choosing) to get F2s and then finally backcross to the P1. Bit which? Haha this is my first time ever breeding and I guess I need it simplified and broken down in a way a dumb person can understand. Cause even after mass amounts of reading I still have some questions.

Thank you sooo much for taking the time to read this and hopefully responding!!

 

[HopHead]

Hi AG and welcome to the best community on the web IMO.

I dabble a bit in breeding but I'm no expert. You may want to check out my Malawi Gold link in my signature. I'm in the process of trying to lock in a sativa-dominant trait. The Malawi Gold is a 100% sativa strain but my plants are almost all hybrids IMO. I've never grown sativa before; only indica and indica-dominant hybrids. One of 12 plants has sativa-dominant traits with the other 11 having indica traits. This grow was primarily for seeds for a seed bank which is still true but it has an added breeding aspect; now that I see that it is not a true Malawi Gold. I allowed all 12 plants to partake in pollination and I have taken clones of the targeted female. I've also collected 8 seeds from the same female and am waiting for them to germinate. I will cull any plants that are not sativa-dominant and keep the sativa-dominant for breeding. One or more sativa-dominant males, if available will pollinate the sativa's clone. That in IMO should lock in the sativa trait so that the resulting seeds should be sativa-dominant. I would expect different phenotypes including indica-dominant but I expect sativa-dominant should be prevalent enough that the next time I plant those seeds I should have a fair % of sativa-dominant. I could do another back-breeding at that time. It wouldn't be a true back-breed because I'm not planning on keeping her or her clone alive until then. I'll start over by choosing sativa-dominant males and females.

In your situation, if I understand it correctly you are wanting to lock in the female's traits. She would be your target so she would be pollinated by the selected males. You could do one at a time or the two together. The resulting seeds would contain her genes and the male genes. I would expect various traits to show up and therefore, various phenotypes. You would then choose which phenos suit your desired target and specifically which males. The male or males would then pollinate your targeted female. Obviously, you would have to clone her for each pollination. So in effect she would be pollinated by the chosen male, her clone would be pollinated by her son, her clone would be pollinated by her grandson and so on. The more back-breeding the more the traits are locked in as I understand it. As you can see you'll need to clone the targeted female for each pollination and you will have to select which males to use. It's very doable but it will take time and planning, coordination, etc. If you wanted to target the males as well then you would have to do parallel breeding projects. The targeted male/s would be cloned and you would choose which female offspring to breed with him. So, he would be pollinating the female you chose for him, then his daughter, then his granddaughter, great granddaughter, etc. Sounds immoral. I think it would be more feasible to do one breeding at a time. I would do one to the end and then do the next to the end. That would require you to keep a targeted plant alive until you're satisfied that you've reached your objective. It's my understanding that you should breed for 1 trait at a time. When you reach that objective then you start the process over for the next desired trait.

Now, it sounds overwhelming but you could do it in steps. The one thing you would definitely need is a clone of your targets at all times. You could keep him and/or her alive while you do other projects and then return when you have the time. The seeds could be planted whenever you want to continue. Until that time arrives seeds are best kept cold, dry and in a dark place. I keep mine in the freezer well packaged and sealed or in the fridge if the wait isn't long.

I hope this is helpful and good luck.

There are very experienced growers here so hopefully you'll hear from some of them.

 

[Awakened Gen]

Thank you HopHead! That is just what I was looking for. You had some great points about parallel breeding and that is something that is definitely going to have to wait. I Seriously confused on what people did when it came to back crossing and whether they have a designated female or male. Seems that people do both but using the a designated female seems a bit more efficient for what I am aiming for. There are traits in both heretics that I am aiming for. One would be yield and the other terpene profile/color. So I guess 3... haha the male has the terpenes and and dark dark purples and my female has the stability and yield (flavor and smell are still great but I would like to change it slightly. So, say I take a clone from the female mother I am using, Grow her out to flower and pollinate with the male/s I have. That would create F1 seeds. Should I then find an F1 male suitable to backcross or should I find a F1 male AND an F1 female and cross inline breed them and create F2s, then find the male to backcross with the original P1 Female? Is the F1s for stable then F2s? From what I read F2s is when things get extra crazy and recessive traits start to show, so I’m wondering if I should backcross an F1 male or an f2 male to the P1 female.
Also do I have enough time to collect pollen from the P1 Male/s and store it until I get a F1 female I think is worthy of pollination? Or can I clone said male/s and keep their genetics going by clones if the pollen doesn’t last long?
Thank you again and I will certainly check out your grow you mentioned!

 

[HopHead]

Thanks AG. It sounds like the males you're wanting to breed are flowering now but the female isn't ready now? You could collect the pollen but it's not as easy as one might think. Pollen has a short lifespan and storing it doesn't ensure its viability. Moisture will ruin it. It has a tendency to cake. So breeding the male without clones seems like an impossible task unless you have pollen storing expertise. I don't. My pollen collected from the Malawi grow was good the first time I retrieved it from the fridge but had caked the second time. And I took the precaution of warming up the vial of pollen before opening it. But it still eventually caked. Cloning a flowering male isn't a good choice either. They tend to hermie due to the stress of going from flowering to vegging. Not a desirable trait. So, I'm not sure what to tell you AG. If I understand your situation correctly then I think I would hang onto the female if possible and look for another male. Ideally, you would clone her when she is vegging. To clone her when she is flowering opens up the possibility of her changing sex as well. With that said maybe you want to give it a try anyway and see what happens. Might be worth a try and if nothing else it will add to your experience. You never know if it will work unless you try it.

If breeding is your objective then planning is important. So, a good starting point is to take clones of your plants before they are put into the flowering stage. I would take clones of all plants and then after the mothers are showing their sex and traits you then decide which ones to keep and which ones to cull. You then have the ability to make as many clones as you want without weakening the genes.

Hope this helps.

 

[Awakened Gen]

The males have been and are currently still in veg for a about two months from seed and clones can be taken any time off the mother female. The male/s won’t be flowered until I’m sure I understand most of this fully and I’ll definitely make sure that a female is ready. So from what you’ve said, I’m just not going to attempt to store any pollen this time. I’ll get the males and females ready and and create some F1s. I guess I was asking if I could take clones off the male I chose and use that to polinate the F1 seeds once they pop and are big enough to be flowered. I understand the male will be waiting around for the F1s to catch up but it can remain in a vegatative state without pollination right? So it would be like back crossing even though it’s not the exact original male cause it’s a clone, but then again a clone is the exact replica of the mother or in this case the father. Or am I over thinking this and should just attempt to backcross a F1 male with the female used? Lol I know I may sound a little confusing. But I thank you for your patience and answers.

 

[HopHead]

The males have been and are currently still in veg for a about two months from seed and clones can be taken any time off the mother female. The male/s won't be flowered until I'm sure I understand most of this fully and I'll definitely make sure that a female is ready.

Okay, that's good, I see no problem. Ideally, if the male and female are both mature and introduced to the flowering schedule at the same time then it should work quite well. A problem may arise if the male and female are different strains with different flowering times. In that case one may be early and the other late, but even then there should be enough overlap. I would suggest you take lots of notes, and if possible you should do a grow journal which may attract some more experienced breeders.

So from what you've said, I'm just not going to attempt to store any pollen this time. I'll get the males and females ready and and create some F1s. I guess I was asking if I could take clones off the male I chose and use that to polinate the F1 seeds once they pop and are big enough to be flowered.

Yes, that would help to lock in the male traits. The next step would be to use another clone from the same father to pollinate a F2 seed. This process would help to lock in the male traits. I hope I don't discourage you from collecting pollen; give it a try when the occasion arises and gain some experience. I was just letting you know it's not an automatic slam dunk. I haven't perfected it yet but I'll keep trying. I collect it over a number of days storing it in the fridge. Because a cold object in a warm room will condense the moisture in the air as in a cold beer I always warm it before opening it. That's one precaution I can warn you about. For long term storage I freeze mine. To date I've never retrieved any so I don't know what I'll find.

I understand the male will be waiting around for the F1s to catch up but it can remain in a vegatative state without pollination right?

Yes, as long as you haven't introduced it to a flowering schedule and has no ruderalis in its genes.

So it would be like back crossing even though it's not the exact original male cause it's a clone, but then again a clone is the exact replica of the mother or in this case the father. Or am I over thinking this and should just attempt to backcross a F1 male with the female used? Lol I know I may sound a little confusing. But I thank you for your patience and answers.

Not overthinking; you have it right. This process is to stabilize the male for 1 of the traits you desire.

If the males(2) and the 1 female are targets of your breeding then having a designated mother and designated fathers to get clones from makes it quite possible.

Thanks AG, happy to help a fellow grower. Hope all goes well and think about doing a journal.

 

[lazyfish]

Hi Folks. I love the talk here and am ready to jump in but I am half asleep going to bed...

Subbed!


See you soon.