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Thread: Stevehman's LED Buyer's Guide

  1. #16
    420 Member JJ Bones's Avatar
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    I've read that study as well as the Oxford one.

    The one you're speaking of; they tested multiple combinations of different ratios of green, red, and blue light and yes, depending on how much of any wavelength was tested altered the end results. The proper balance of the 3 wavelengths is what gives optimal results.

    Ed talking about it, referencing his time @ University of Maryland:



    Granted we're all still learning new things everyday.

  2. #17
    420 Member SteveHman's Avatar
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    I love peer reviewed studies, fellow researchers will call B.S. and throw your trash in the street if you don't have numbers to back it up.

    As far as I know, there is only one company touting the use of green LEDs in their lights, and they are no longer a sponsor (in fact their name is not even allowed to be mentioned). And the mix is 15% green, which is a lot considering the total number of chips on the board. The company selling those lights have a master of self-promotion running the operation and is highly skilled at marketing, but if you do your own research on them (a simple Google search with the company name and owner's name), you may be surprised at what you find--I will just leave it at that.

    Best bet is to stick with a sponsors product, members here are quick to report on products and will definitely call someone out on their B.S. if it's revealed.

    (For those using lights from that other company, you may be satisfied and have had terrific results--and that is the bottom line for you. If so I am not trying to bash you as a grower, just shedding some light on the industry in general)

  3. #18
    420 Member SteveHman's Avatar
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    JJ,
    I just watched Ed's video, I trust his opinion, but am not sold on green yet. I plan on purchasing some components to make a green led spotlight and will use that in a future grow and test it's effectiveness as a supplemental wavelength (using it in my test grow on half the plants). I can build a few small spots and give it a shot to see if it works. (if I can buy a couple spots cheaper than buying the parts, I will do that as well)

    It is odd that green is considered the safe light to use for night time viewing of your plants, but is also being reported as being a way to increase production.
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  4. #19
    New Member GREENHAIRBALL's Avatar
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    "It is odd that green is considered the safe light to use for night time viewing of your plants, but is also being reported as being a way to increase production."

    I was thinking the same thing. I use a green LED flashlight often to view my plants when they are sleeping. Now I'm wondering if I can/should still do that. The plants came out ok but maybe they could have been better.
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  5. #20
    420 Member JJ Bones's Avatar
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by stevehman View Post
    I love peer reviewed studies, fellow researchers will call B.S. and throw your trash in the street if you don't have numbers to back it up.

    As far as I know, there is only one company touting the use of green LEDs in their lights, and they are no longer a sponsor (in fact their name is not even allowed to be mentioned). And the mix is 15% green, which is a lot considering the total number of chips on the board. The company selling those lights have a master of self-promotion running the operation and is highly skilled at marketing, but if you do your own research on them (a simple Google search with the company name and owner's name), you may be surprised at what you find--I will just leave it at that.

    Best bet is to stick with a sponsors product, members here are quick to report on products and will definitely call someone out on their B.S. if it's revealed.

    (For those using lights from that other company, you may be satisfied and have had terrific results--and that is the bottom line for you. If so I am not trying to bash you as a grower, just shedding some light on the industry in general)
    This is shaping into a great thread, well done steve, good idea. I think any newbie who finds this will be far ahead in an educated decision. Us discussing all this is the research for them in a sense...heh.

    I'm totally open to being incorrect. I'm a skeptic by far, so as time passes and more is revealed about LED's I'm open for the truth.

    One of the 420mags current sponsors, GrowStealthLED also is current running this light in their units. Now, doesn't say 525 nm but is 510-540, I shouldn't have thrown out the 525 number, as I don't know of an exact, perfect one.

    In regards to night lights, I've thought about this as well. And my theory is that when the green is completely by itself, there is no effect to the plants, however when it is combined with other types of light would be a different scenario.

  6. #21
    420 Member SteveHman's Avatar
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    possibly, I read another article that was saying that blue light was safe at night as well, and the guy was doing some testing on a different light plan that had the blue on for an hour or two longer than the red. He claimed it wouldn't effect the 12/12 cycle since that was controlled by the red spectrum. I don't think he ever posted his findings. That is why I am always a skeptic until I have empirical evidence otherwise.

    I could just as easily say that orange is the most important spectrum and until someone came along and proved me wrong with scientific data, I could claim whatever I wanted about it. Stevehman's newest, most powerful LED, equivalent to a 1,000 w HPS, draws only 30w and uses a proprietary mix of green, orange and violet lights. 200% more penetration than the competitor....ad nauseam

    I take every claim with a grain of salt, (especially nutrient companies) and wish we had a Cannasumer Reports, but until the landscape changes and MMJ/cannabis acceptance is up, we won't see any mainstream testing of the products targeted at the market. As a consequence, we are left to the claims of those selling to us, many who have no credentials to back them up.

  7. #22
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    Actually for the tomato plant the highest yields where recorded with the lowest amounts of green light. Likewise, the Oxford study you linked was in "Strong White light". It refers to light absorption in the lower chloroplasts.

    "When compared on a unit chlorophyll basis, the chloroplasts in the lowermost part of the leaf absorb <10% of those in the uppermost part, even at a wavelength of 550 nm at which the absorption gradient is most moderate."

    You're adding only green light to the red and blue spectra for a process that is >90% ineffective. This green light still only has a 1% absorption gain over 660nm red light over a PPFD of 1000 micro mols m-2 s-1.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that light that falls between the common 450-630 or 660nm range (or on either end of those ranges) is not used or not needed. I'm simply saying that there have not been enough in-depth studies across all plant mediums to give a 100% definitive answer.

    This is the exact reason that growers of all plants try different nutrients, grow mediums, lighting setups, temperatures, humidity levels, etc. For me personally, I have tried using countless wavelengths and combinations of wavelengths to see what works best. Much to my surprise, what works well with herbs and spices, tends not to work very well with flower and produce plants. If you mix UV light into cucumbers and broccoli, they grow very slowly and produce poor produce. If you mix UV into tomatoes and peppers, it increases fruiting and the amount of Beta-carotene they produce.

    I haven't devised what I feel is the best mix wavelengths and lighting as of yet. If I had, you would see me as one of the sponsors on the sight and I would be selling a product. However, one of the reasons I've been a lurker here for so long is that the people in this community are the pioneers for all things horticultural. They perform rigorous test on multiple platforms across a variety of strains and openly share their wealth of information with others. Stevehman, happens to be one of those fine growers that gives true scientific data on his results and is very good listing his methodology. He is also one of the few people that I would ask to test my product if I am ever satisfied with my results.
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  8. #23
    420 Member SteveHman's Avatar
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    Hosebomber,
    Welcome to the site, great to have another critical thinker amongst the group. I would be honored to test your lights when you have them ready for market. I really do enjoy the growing more than the using aspect. I spent a lot of my time doing analytical work and now that I am semi-retired this gives me an outlet and something to focus on.

  9. #24
    420 Member JJ Bones's Avatar
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by stevehman View Post
    possibly, I read another article that was saying that blue light was safe at night as well, and the guy was doing some testing on a different light plan that had the blue on for an hour or two longer than the red. He claimed it wouldn't effect the 12/12 cycle since that was controlled by the red spectrum. I don't think he ever posted his findings. That is why I am always a skeptic until I have empirical evidence otherwise.

    I could just as easily say that orange is the most important spectrum and until someone came along and proved me wrong with scientific data, I could claim whatever I wanted about it. Stevehman's newest, most powerful LED, equivalent to a 1,000 w HPS, draws only 30w and uses a proprietary mix of green, orange and violet lights. 200% more penetration than the competitor....ad nauseam

    I take every claim with a grain of salt, (especially nutrient companies) and wish we had a Cannasumer Reports, but until the landscape changes and MMJ/cannabis acceptance is up, we won't see any mainstream testing of the products targeted at the market. As a consequence, we are left to the claims of those selling to us, many who have no credentials to back them up.
    In my readings, I've come across a method of using 12 hours of normal light and 12 hours of solid blue light, to determine the sex of a Cannabis plant without taking it out of the veg cycle; haven't gotten to test this just yet, however seems interesting.

    Great insight Hosebomber.

    Regardless of all the details we're discussing here, I'm sure we can all agree that LED has come a long way, and will likely continue to. I can see it replacing HID, as an industry norm in the future.

  10. #25
    420 Member SteveHman's Avatar
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    There are a lot of exciting innovations just around the corner, higher output LEDs (some hinting at a full spectrum chip?), sulfur plasma lights that are like mini-suns and others. It is going to be really interesting to see what we are all growing with in 10 years, one that that I am certain of, it won't involve HPS, MH or HID type lighting.

  11. #26
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    I agree completely JJ. LED's have come a very long way in the past 2 years. Let alone 20 years ago when we was playing with them in high school biology class. Using colored film covering to see what effect they had. I still remember the massive stretching under the green film and the stubby little plant under the blue film.

    I believe that the advances in the use of leds in a horticulture application are still a bit too slow. Miracle-Gro is the first corp. to actively look at the MMJ market and target it and they haven't released a product yet (that I am aware of). As the movement grows and the market expands, I believe you will see larger companies looking to invest. Likewise, with the rising cost of power in many states, using more economical/energy efficient lighting will become more and more popular. The led manufacturing industry as a whole is still relatively young and will continue to push more efficient and more powerful lighting. Laws passed by the EU and other nations to move away from incandescent lighting will push the industry too.

  12. #27
    420 Member JJ Bones's Avatar
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    Miracle-Gro has just begun getting into the game...they have invested. It's not wide-spread news yet, but I'm sure it will be soon.
    Last edited by JJ Bones; 08-12-2011 at 04:56 PM. Reason: Edit: I don't mean to get off-topic or mess up your thread steve, please let me know if we should move the convo

  13. #28
    420 Member SteveHman's Avatar
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ Bones View Post
    Miracle-Gro has just begun getting into the game...they have invested. It's not wide-spread news yet, but I'm sure it will be soon.
    Like them or not, one thing to be sure of, when Miracle-Gro gets into the game, the prices will be very competitive and their products will be well tested and the guaranteed analysis will be spot-on. They won't half-step when their name is at stake. Other nutrient companies can get by with half-truths because no one is really going to call them on the carpet. But MG will have a lot at stake and I am sure if/when they release a MMJ specific nute line it will be top-rate.
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  14. #29
    420 Member JJ Bones's Avatar
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    I agree, it will keep people on their toes and force some companies to be sure they can back up their claims.

  15. #30
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    Re: Stevehman's LED buyer's guide

    Obviously it's important to have a feeling of the light spectrum that's being offered by certain LED's, but how much stock should we put into color graphs from the manufacturers like those placed in these ads:

    180w LED Grow Light - 3w USA Brand LEDs

    Quantum LED Grow Lights | Grow Stealth LED | Best LED Grow Light

    I dont mean to say the above manufacturers are pulling a move on us. Don't take it that way.

    What I mean is where should we be putting our priority rating on these graphs.

    Along the same lines, are you finding manufacturers when asked will divulge the chip information that we are here learning is important?

    When asking about coverage area, there are at least two stats listed. Core coverage and overall coverage. This can be another somewhat confusing piece of information. Possibly a light coverage area graph below a unit showing inches/area coverage like we've seen from some hid ads would be helpful in determining what the true area of coverage is both long & wide. This obviously becomes pretty important for the 1st time buyer. Especially when thinking small multi plant areas that are larger than the 1-3 plant grower.

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