Ceramic metal halide

R

runonsent

New Member
hello. i am getting ready to start my first grow. i have a secret jardin lodge 280. it is a 3 room tent for perpetual grow. i was looking at leds, and did not have the money to spend on them. The grow shop told me about ceramic metal halide. Claims they are an led killer. they are cheaper to run and have a better light spectrum. so i hopped on it and bought 2 of them. then talking to another grow shop, they said i t would take 4 of them for a 4x6 tent. Is this correct? I cant afford the leds, but need as little power as possible. what do you think my best route is. 2 cmh, 3 cmh with a moving rack, 2 600 watt hps? my dream goal is 2 to 2.5 pounds off of 12 plants. is this wishful thinking?
 
Nope not wishful thinking at all. I pull 250g to 400g per all the time. I'm using 9x Bridgelux 10,000 lumen COB array. Total wattage consumption is 450 watts at 100% power 560 watts on overdrive.
Ceramic MH is excellent. It produces a lot of heat and consumes a lot of electricity but gets excellent results.
I am however dubious about the CmH claims that it uses less electricity. I just sold my 630w CMH last year (along with all my HID lighting) and went to cob.
The cobs put out 20%-30% more light and consume 50% less electricity.
I find it strange your Hydro shop said CMH was cheaper. Most fixtures with bulbs run $750 for a single or DE CMH. $50 less than what I paid for 9 Vero29's pushing 100,000 combined lumens. I think the CMH puts out 60,000 lumens. Can't remember.

Your best route cost/performance wise is to build your own custom COB array like most of the professional growers do.
You can build a 3 COB/1 driver dimmable system with overvolting for $225 Canadian.


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runonsent said:
hello. i am getting ready to start my first grow. i have a secret jardin lodge 280. it is a 3 room tent for perpetual grow. i was looking at leds, and did not have the money to spend on them. The grow shop told me about ceramic metal halide. Claims they are an led killer. they are cheaper to run and have a better light spectrum. so i hopped on it and bought 2 of them. then talking to another grow shop, they said i t would take 4 of them for a 4x6 tent. Is this correct? I cant afford the leds, but need as little power as possible. what do you think my best route is. 2 cmh, 3 cmh with a moving rack, 2 600 watt hps? my dream goal is 2 to 2.5 pounds off of 12 plants. is this wishful thinking?
Click to expand...

What type of CMH lights did you buy?

I've been looking at some 315w CMHs. I understand they have a footprint of 3x3. I also understand that you need separate bulbs for vegetation and flowering. Certainly footprint-wise, it would seem they would almost cover your 4x6 space, though the outter six inches of each long side of your room would be a little too dim ...

I however have been looking at them for additional lighting (subsidiary lighting for both LED and dual-spectrum HPS) as I'm a believer that spectrum is as important as power. With the correct bulb, CMH are apparently very good for side shoot formation during vegetation (so even if eventually you decide on something else for your flowering room, they should be great for your veg room ...!)

As to whether they'd provide enough output for your grows ... try and find a lumen or PAR output map for your type of bulb & reflector combo ... or if thats not available, for a CMH bulb of your wattage. It's claimed that they're more efficient than HPS/MH, so I'm not sure they 65w/ft2 applies to them or LEDs ... some LED manufacturers and users use about half that and their grows are successful. Light rails are quoted as +25 - 40% increase in efficiency. They'll help to "average out" the less intense areas in your "longitudinal" light foot print, and provide light to areas of your plant that won't see them with static lights.

As you've already sunk the money, maybe consider additional lighting? You could look at some smaller LED units ... ideal on the light-mover if you go for that

As to whether 2 to 2.5lbs is achievable with a 4 x 6 footprint (presumably also a veg and seedling room for "a continuous grow" in your three room tent) ... yeah ... its definitely do-able. I'm in a 7 x 4 space and am there or thereabouts.

You'll need to keep your foot print clear so you can have plants on it, rather than boxes / fans / dehumidifiers etc though. Plant choice will be crucial (as in some cases, it would be impossible to grow 2lbs on that footprint with some strains) ...

Good luck
 
JimmyJames905 said:
My bad. Posted wrong link.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link ... interesting stuff !

I thought the PAR maps at 24" were really impressive for a 315w power draw ...! Certainly good against 600w HPS ...

Guessing they didn't they work well for you? I've heard a lot of good things about them ...

On the basis of that link, I'll still be getting a couple to increase the spectrum of my grows
 
Still barely covers anything in the veg spectrum. The problem with the CMH is its lack of 5000-7000k range for veg, resulting in stretch. But if you look up the spectral data from Cree or Bridgelux you'll see that per watt per dollar per gram.... COBs still blow away any HID on a watt to watt basis. And COBs keep getting better.
That's why I'm dubious about the "LED killer" claim. Unless of course the "LED" panel in question is a shitty Mars II panel from 2 years ago. Lol.


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JimmyJames905 said:
I find it strange your Hydro shop said CMH was cheaper.
Click to expand...

Most hydro shops that I have encountered will say similar things....and the big why?

Bulbs need replacement about 1x per year, which means if you buy a HID bulb, they get a sale every year theoretically from the customer.

Also LED's are so competitive in pricing, and so a shop owner can't really make as much money as selling HID bulbs, plus the room for inventory for 10x HID bulbs vs 10x LED panels is vastly different.

I've experienced these conversations at a few hydro shops speaking with the owners.
 
JimmyJames905 said:
4X The Yield of HPS!!! 500W LED vs 1200W HPS Grow-Off by Cannabis Training University - YouTube

Proof led wins.


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Click to expand...


Cool video, but I am skeptical of the results. Hydro Grow (was) and may still be owned by a person who will remain nameless that has quite a history with a lot of growing forums, and other LED companies from what I have heard...(not a good history with reports of a lot of fraudulent behavior) so this makes me skeptical the results reported are accurate...

Also...

a few things that could have influenced the results...

different color 5 gallon buckets were used (yes color of ground covering has shown in controlled experiments to increase/decrease plant stretch, yield and trichome content).

Plants were not grown uniformly, and appear to be topped or trained, which influences the grow.

The video states that the plants under LED used more nutrients and water, which right away spells out that there was other variables at hand that influenced plant growth, yield and the results.

There was no barrier between the HID and LED plants so both plants have spillover of the light, however since CMH spread the light further, there is a good chance that the LED plants may have also been getting some of that light. LED's being more directional, there most likely was less spillover.... but either way, its not a controlled environment so the results are skewed.

Also, there was no data to show.. they didn't weigh each plant and show the result in the video, or the weight comparison between lights, no lab test results were posted so when the video maker says "THC content was about the same" what does that mean? Why not post the results.... and why no other cannaboids mentioned, or terpene analysis.

Cool video, just wanted to point some things out that I noticed that may be valid considerations in the legitimacy of the results.
 
JimmyJames905 said:
My problem with the CMH was that even with the 4000k bulb my plants still stretched.
But here's CMH par values by bulb.

Sorry. Posted wrong link earlier.

Ceramic Metal Halide CMH 315W Lamp Comparison Test Data & Review - YouTube


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Click to expand...

I haven't seen this video yet... very interesting that the more "red" k color temps produce more UV. I would have assumed that it was the ones with heavier blue and higher K color temp would have produced more, but its the opposite. Very interesting :)

That phillips 3100k blows the others out of the water! wow!
 
Icemud said:
I haven't seen this video yet... very interesting that the more "red" k color temps produce more UV. I would have assumed that it was the ones with heavier blue and higher K color temp would have produced more, but its the opposite. Very interesting :)

That phillips 3100k blows the others out of the water! wow!
Click to expand...

Philips makes very good bulbs. They even make a LED replacement for HPS and MH fixtures. Just pop it in and go.


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GE makes one too.
420-magazine-mobile276678524.jpg



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runonsent said:
hello. i am getting ready to start my first grow. i have a secret jardin lodge 280. it is a 3 room tent for perpetual grow. i was looking at leds, and did not have the money to spend on them. The grow shop told me about ceramic metal halide. Claims they are an led killer. they are cheaper to run and have a better light spectrum. so i hopped on it and bought 2 of them. then talking to another grow shop, they said i t would take 4 of them for a 4x6 tent. Is this correct? I cant afford the leds, but need as little power as possible. what do you think my best route is. 2 cmh, 3 cmh with a moving rack, 2 600 watt hps? my dream goal is 2 to 2.5 pounds off of 12 plants. is this wishful thinking?
Click to expand...

CMH and LEC bulbs are pretty much the best bulbs available for growing as they are very similar to the sun, give all wavelengths needed and even put out UV which LED typically doesn't so in those ways they are awesome.

A typical CMH bulb is claimed to put out enough light for a 3'x3' area however based on the PAR charts in the videos that were posted, I would say for optimal lighting its actually closer to 2'x2' which is about the standard for most LED prebuilt panels.

CMH are going to cost more to run, as Jimmy pointed out, as COB lighting is very efficient. For instance a company(non sponsor) that makes Prebuilt COBs with Cree CXB chips and meanwell drivers (same parts as our sponsor Timber uses) at only 180w puts out the same PAR readings as all those CMH bulbs in the video... but at less than 1/2 the wattage. So with CMH your electricity bill will cost double of what it would cost to run COBS.

I think last I have read, CMH put out around 120lm/watt, where a properly built COB LED light with Cree, Vero or Citiled can put out higher than 150lm/watt.

Also with CMH you will have to purchase bulbs about every 5000 hours to keep the best efficiency, as most CMH bulbs lose 10% of their light output every 5000 hours. When compared to a LED COB, you are looking at losing about 1-2% every 5000 hours so they don't need to be replace for many years, without losing effiency.


I agree with Jimmy that the best option for you would be to take a look at Cree/Vero/Citiled COBs and build a DIY Light, or buy a prebuilt COB light using Cree CXB, Bridgelux Vero or Citiled CLU COB chips. It won't cost much more up front, but you will save much more down the road :)
 
Icemud said:
CMH and LEC bulbs are pretty much the best bulbs available for growing as they are very similar to the sun, give all wavelengths needed and even put out UV which LED typically doesn't so in those ways they are awesome.

A typical CMH bulb is claimed to put out enough light for a 3'x3' area however based on the PAR charts in the videos that were posted, I would say for optimal lighting its actually closer to 2'x2' which is about the standard for most LED prebuilt panels.

CMH are going to cost more to run, as Jimmy pointed out, as COB lighting is very efficient. For instance a company(non sponsor) that makes Prebuilt COBs with Cree CXB chips and meanwell drivers (same parts as our sponsor Timber uses) at only 180w puts out the same PAR readings as all those CMH bulbs in the video... but at less than 1/2 the wattage. So with CMH your electricity bill will cost double of what it would cost to run COBS.

I think last I have read, CMH put out around 120lm/watt, where a properly built COB LED light with Cree, Vero or Citiled can put out higher than 150lm/watt.

Also with CMH you will have to purchase bulbs about every 5000 hours to keep the best efficiency, as most CMH bulbs lose 10% of their light output every 5000 hours. When compared to a LED COB, you are looking at losing about 1-2% every 5000 hours so they don't need to be replace for many years, without losing effiency.


I agree with Jimmy that the best option for you would be to take a look at Cree/Vero/Citiled COBs and build a DIY Light, or buy a prebuilt COB light using Cree CXB, Bridgelux Vero or Citiled CLU COB chips. It won't cost much more up front, but you will save much more down the road :)
Click to expand...

Agree 100%.
Also if you're going to stick with CMH try and get a Philips bulb. They last a little longer, have WAY better PAR ratings.
Stay away from the cheap $60 Chinese bulbs. Especially the cheap DE bulbs. You'll be replacing them all they time and they blow at the worst time. Like half way through budding while you're on autopilot because you're away for the weekend.

Not that that exact scenario happened to me last year forcing me to get rid of my HIDs.
Lol.


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