PPFD Measurements & Analysis for LEDs

ConstantGreen

New Member
Hello, I took data on the two LED panels I have in efforts to compare them with each other and determine their optimal height and coverage. Both panels are marketed for a 4x4 area, so I measured them in that space. Panels were centered and leveled at each height.

First is Amare's Solar Eclipse 450. 21.5" sq. Pulls 435 watts (15w UVB is out of PAR range). Has 60x 5w Monochrome LED's and 6x Cree 3070 CoB's. I'll also be testing with the optional focusing lenses on.

20170314_180554.jpg


Second is the Mars II 1200. 19" sq. Pulls 550w. Has 256x 5w Monochrome LED's. On my panel during the test, three green LED's were completely dead and four blue LED's had burnt-black lenses. So my data for the 1200 is at least 2-3% lower than a fully-operational unit.

20170315_105611_HDR.jpg


PPFD readings were taken in a 4x4' tent by my Hydrofarm Quantum PAR meter. I divided the 4x4 into 6" squares and took readings at the center of each square. Readings were taken 6" apart in height as well. After taking over 700 readings I ended up with this chart:

20170315_124932_HDR.jpg

(Download the image if you want to zoom to readable size)

The chart just shows the raw data, but here's the format I was recording each square in:

ss_2017-03-31_at_12_43_59_.png


To further organize the data, I thought it would be efficient to find the average PPFD of each light at each height.

avg_ppfd.png


From here I can see a few things.
Clearly the Amare SE450 is better than the Mars II 1200, while using 100w less power. This surprised me because I have yet to see these results in my yields.
SE450 always averages better with lenses on, as long as you can keep it 30-36" high. Lenses will burn cannabis if used lower than 30".
The CoB's create spotlight, especially with lenses on. Seems to be a sweet spot in the 3x3' zone at 30".

Looking at the raw data graph, the numbers along the perimeter that signify the 4x4 range are so low that I still can't understand why the manufacturers have marketed these panels for 4x4 spaces.
I don't think there's a researched consensus on how much PAR is optimal for growing and flowering cannabis, but the few quotes I did find were recommending 700 PPFD for vegging and 800 PPFD for flowering, others suggested 800-1200 PPFD or even up to 1500. It's important to remember that PAR is not everything; CO2, temperature, and day-length also factor into optimal growth. If we accept 700 as the minimum optimal PPFD, then both of these panels belong in 2x2 spaces. That doesn't seem right though, because for example the SE450 in a 2x2 space would be 112w per sq. ft. and I doubt how easily you could yield 450g (1 GPW) in a 2x2.

Anyway, just wanted to share what I have so far. Hoping to further analyze the data and create easier comparisons across LED's. Please feel free to ask questions / share thoughts.
 
re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

Interesting read fornsure man, thanks for putting this together. Gives you a good idea of what quality lights can do compared to cheap mars lights. I have some mars and they do alright, but there just so innoficient.
 
re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

Its great to see others testing par and publishing the results! Kudos!

Can definitely see the difference in high quality cree chips vs cheap led chips :)
 
re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

:high-five: Thanks Icemud! I really appreciate all the research you do, especially recently on the very interesting emerson effect! I admittedly haven't been keeping up, but I'm saving it for a rainy day.
 
Re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare + Mars LED's

The average PPFD is really not good with these lights. Just right under them or some inches more out on the sides then it drops massively.

Was the amare brand new or the same age? Since the output on those non horticultural LEDs goes down fast. Not the case with Oslons afaik... And not with high grade COBs (cree, citizen, bridgelux and only a few other competitors) at the common currents.

Yeah. If the mars was used more hours prior to this test i think it is not the best starting point. I think at a point when LEDs are out and Lenses already milky or brown they already put out only 60 or 70 percent compared to a new one. But i love your testing, dont get me wrong. I am thankful for guys like you...
 
re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

Thanks for quantifying this particular test...

comment...
Your SE with lense reads considerably higher than without. I get that lenses would focus light and increase intensity toward the focal point. You've got numbers from 18-36 inches over multiple footprints. The results are a bit confusing to me regarding with vs without lense. It's safe to assume that the unit without lenses is more efficient than with lenses (no lense will shape light at 100% efficiency and some will change state to heat). I was expecting a "crossover" somewhere between the with/without based on footprint and hanging height. The w/lens looks better across the board. I don't think this is possible as we know the exact same light is overall more efficient without lenses.

Maybe I'm missing something in the conversion from PAR to PPFD and I can't really read your raw data. It just seems to me that the laws of physics aren't adding up. Maybe if you took a reading at the center of each wall? Lol... great test and thanks for your efforts! Sorry for the rambling.. this one stumped me.
 
Re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare + Mars LED's

May i know when did you bought the Mars II 1200? :high-five:
Was the amare brand new or the same age?

Good thoughts, I hadn't considered their ages. They're both about the same tho.

I bought the Mars II 1200 in June 2015. It's been in use 13 out of 21 months.
I bought the Amare SE450 in March 2016, been in use for 13 months.

Each light has completed 3 grows, about 2 months 18/6 and 2 months 12/12 per grow. That's avg 15 hrs per day for lets say 400 days, so approximately 6,000 hrs on each panel.

I asked Sara once how much their light depreciates over time and the reply was:

" :circle-of-love: Hi Versai, there is light loss. We haven't test the PAR depreciation for our light. We have tested the light depreciation. Within 1000 hours, the light depreciation is 0%. It will be 1% after 3000 hours and 3% after 10000 hours."

So with 7 of 264 led's basically burnt out, and 2% depreciation on the rest, my 1200 should still be operating at 95%.
 
Re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare + Mars LED's

Thanks for quantifying this particular test...

comment...
Your SE with lense reads considerably higher than without. I get that lenses would focus light and increase intensity toward the focal point. You've got numbers from 18-36 inches over multiple footprints. The results are a bit confusing to me regarding with vs without lense. It's safe to assume that the unit without lenses is more efficient than with lenses (no lense will shape light at 100% efficiency and some will change state to heat). I was expecting a "crossover" somewhere between the with/without based on footprint and hanging height. The w/lens looks better across the board. I don't think this is possible as we know the exact same light is overall more efficient without lenses.

Maybe I'm missing something in the conversion from PAR to PPFD and I can't really read your raw data. It just seems to me that the laws of physics aren't adding up. Maybe if you took a reading at the center of each wall? Lol... great test and thanks for your efforts! Sorry for the rambling.. this one stumped me.

Thank you for your questions. I realize i didnt explain how i made the averages. I took one set of measurements in a 4x4, divided by 6"x6" squares for 64 squares / measurements. For the 2x2 averages i took the center 16 squares of the 4x4 and averaged them, then the center 36 squares for the 3x3 averages.

I think theres a lot of confusion around par, ppf and ppfd. PAR just means photosynthetically active radiation; it's not a measurement, just defining the range 400-700nm. PPF is the total amount of par photons a panel emits and is measured by the manufacturer in one of those fancy spheres. But PPF is not exactly reflective of how many photons are hitting your canopy. Handheld PAR meters are measuring PPFD, which is the amount of par photons hitting a square meter per second.

It stumps me too why the lens performs so well, but i think it's half illusion because the numbers with lens are boosted so high at the close 18" and 24" heights. Too high in fact, would burn your plants, so the 18" and 24" heights for the SE450 with Lens are grayed out because they're irrelevant.

I think that just happens to also be the crossover point tho, where at 30" high the SE450 without lens starts to lose too much intensity, while the SE450 with lens on is still peaking in the 1000's at the center and high enough above to deliver that intensity over a decent area.

The SE450 without lens would presumably be better in those 18"-30" heights by default. But assuming you have the height, the SE450 with lens at its minimum height of 30" beats the SE450 without lens at its minimum height of 18", all across the board.

Additional info:
The SE450's 5w monochromes are in 90° reflectors, the cobs are in 120° reflectors. The cob lenses are 90°.

When i get a day off I'll type up a digital copy of the data chart and split it up so it's clear and easy to read.
 
re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs


wow! you really took out a lot of time to not only take that many readings, but also to make the charts and copy over all the numbers.. I've done much smaller ones with much less data points and wow...very impressive!!!! (and time consuming) :) Hopefully those manufactures will hook you up for doing work they should be supplying to their consumers ;) hint hint manufactures! lol

Its definitely noticable how the lens and without the lens on the Amare reads... the lens definitely almost adds about 50% more intensity in the middle 2sq feet but reduces the readings significantly on the outer edges, where the non lens version, and the mars both spread the light more evenly but have less central intensity. Very cool to see the influence of the lense and big kudos and thank you to you for taking the time to do all this! very awesome job and very helpful to really show the whole story on how each of these lights perform :)

hats off to you my friend :) :thumb:
 
re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

Thanks Icemud! It certainly was time consuming... but I'm very satisfied with the results. :slide:

I'm ravenous for the best indoor light source so it's very exciting to finally be able to visualize the radiation and get a better understanding of how these lights work. I'm glad we share the thirst. :blunt:
 
re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

Thank you so much for this! I am a Mars2 1200 owner... so especially useful for me!
My lamp came to be mine for 1/3 the current retail price but unused in box... as I am a bargain hunter and love sifting through online classifieds for weeks to find great deals. I am using it in a (also found second hand) SJ 1x1x2 (euro over here) so 3.28'x....
I feel that it is just the right size footprint even though it is by chance that this light ended in that tent. I think Mars would do better to market it for such a size.

Thank you for this valuable data on my product! Seriously appreciate your efforts!

XxKitty
 
re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

Thanks for the kind words Kitty! You sound very resourceful; I'm glad you found my data useful!
I use my 1200 in a 3x3' too and get good results at that footprint. And you can't beat Mars' value.

Mars 1200 $401. Avg PPFD in 3x3' @ optimal height = 396. $1.01 per PPFD.
Amare SE450 $1195. Avg PPFD in 3x3' @ optimal height = 713. $1.67 per PPFD.
 
Re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare + Mars LED's

Amare SolarECLIPSE SE 450 price around around $1100 USD
LEDs:
6 x CREE CXB3070 Chip On Board (COB) LEDs
60 x 5 watt supplemental CREE XP-G2/XP-E2 LEDs (10 per module)
Dimensions: 21.65”x 21.65”x 3.15”
Spectrum: Enhanced white light. White 3000K COBs with 6500K white, blue, IR (infrared) and UV-A/B. 93 CRI.
Mars II 1200
LED 240pcs
Draw power:110V: Veg: 335w±5% / Bloom: 512.8w±5%|220V: Veg: 334w±5% / Bloom: 510.5w±5%
Dimension:19" x 19" x 3" (460*460*90)mm
Compare to HPS/MH/HID:600w
certificate:ETL, CE, RoHS
spectrum:440nm, 460nm, 630nm ,660nm,730nm(IR), 2700k-3000k
Amare450 use more white spectrum,it will be brighter.Unlike Amare450,Mars II 1200 use more red and blue spectrum.:high-five:
You got the Mars II in 2015 June,Amare450 in 2016 March.And i noticed you start a journal for Amare in 2015,July:high-five:

I understand that you are satisfied with Mars II,but you didn't try the Mars Pro II Epistar320,you will also like it.Mars Pro II Epistar80 and 120 with U-connector,you can connect multiple lights as a group according to your needs.

Mars should give him a free Pro version of the lights for taking the time to put together a chart that your company should already be supplying to interested customers.... do you agree?
 
re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

I like how she nonchalantly implies your lying or misleading. Not sure thats the best way to treat customers. Especially one that is clearly pro-active and helpful.


@Icemud..@Versai....I think what Versai did with this chart and readings should be a standard for LED companies. Gotta give it to Dude over at Black Diamond for showing his readings. Although I dont think they were as detailed as Versais, it was fairly respectable.
 
re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

I'm a little disappointed by the response of a company's representative to discredit someone's hard work. I like to think that maybe something was lost in translation here.

I hope that Mars takes a second to realize that this work isn't a competition... only a scientific process to search for true data. No one expects two lamps that vary so greatly in price to compare to one another.

I, a Mars 2 1200 owner, was in fact, impressed with what my lamp could do, even in sub optimal running conditions (if you can call 98% suboptimal)... But not being able to understand the difference between the date a user joined and the date a user made a post and then trying to use that improperly processed information to imply that user is misleading us all in some way.

Well... there is only one person who looks to be misleading in this thread. I'm offended and I am not even the OP.
 
re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

I like how she nonchalantly implies your lying or misleading. Not sure thats the best way to treat customers. Especially one that is clearly pro-active and helpful.


@icemud..@Versai....I think what Versai did with this chart and readings should be a standard for LED companies. Gotta give it to Dude over at Black Diamond for showing his readings. Although I dont think they were as detailed as Versais, it was fairly respectable.

I agree, all LED companies should supply charts like this... its the ONLY way to truly know how a light will project over a flat surface, and the ONLY accurate way that directly relates to plant photosynthesis as the number of photons absorbed is a direct relationship to the amount photosynthesis that takes place.

If a company doesn't supply these charts...it does not help educate the consumer, or encourage them to make rational and data driven purchases. It sucks that the world we live in many companies want consumers to be uninformed instead of being leaders and educating their customers, they purposely restrict them to be knowledgeable.

I respect any LED company that goes through the effort to supply these charts. Unfortunately almost none of them do.
 
Re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare + Mars LED's

We have the PAR readings
Epistar3202.jpg

The Mars Pro II Epistar 320 with upgraded chips and driver,has vents around the panel,as you can see,it run cooler.
I don't think this chart is very useful because it doesn't have enough data points and only shows the 18" height.

Based on the theory that flowering cannabis prefers 800-1200 PPFD, the Epistar320 would be too intense at 18" high without a light mover. 1845 PPFD in the center @ 18" would negatively affect growth I think. It's more accurate to post multiple heights of PAR values to find the correct height for the plant you're growing which my guess is 24" under the Epistar320 for cannabis' 800-1200 range.

It's also important to have a full grid of data points so you can average the data and look at it as a whole instead of individual readings. You can't do that with your chart because you only have 8 readings per 4x4, 3x3, 2x2, and 9 in the center 1x1. The 4x4 area (16 sq. ft.) - the 3x3 area (9 sq. ft.) = 7 sq. ft. worth of space in the 4x4 perimeter. So you have 8 readings for the 7 sq. ft. of the 4x4 perimeter (worth 43% of the footprint), while you have 9 readings for the center 1 sq. ft. (6% of footprint). Averaging your chart would deceivingly get 27% of the data from the center 1x1 values when they're only worth 6% of the whole coverage.

Also, you sell the Epistar320 for a 4x4, but none of those pictures show it being used in a 4x4 space. They're all packing panels wall-to-wall. Seems to suggest they need more than the recommendation to get their results.
 
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