Red woody stems, slow growth

[Pewterdude73]

Bet you have seen this post a million times. Well the net is full of info on this condition. Problem is that it mostly does not apply for my specific problem. If I grow in coco it happens. If I grow in soil it eventually happens. If I clone in rockwool it will happen. The problem is red/purple woody stems with slow growth. I don't know if the small leaves are part of this problem or another problem all together. Temps are 75-77 in the day, 69-70 at night. Nutes don't seem to matter. Heavy 16 on first grow did it. Soul synthetics.. Same problem. Nectar for the Gods does it to a lesser extent but still red stems. Soil will at first produce nice healthy green ridged stems that after about three weeks to a month will start to stripe with red and the stems will start to smooth out and loose those ridges that to me seem indicative of a fast growing healthy plant. It may be my tap water. It is at 90ppm. That doesn't seem high to me but I'm running out of options. Always use to pH at around 5.8 in coco but I'm upping that to about 6.2 as I transition to the nectar line as that is what it calls for. Using 144x3 topled reflector series. Humidity was around 40 until I just installed a humidifier to put it up around 60%. Genetics are the church, blue kush, Frisian dew and a few others. They all do it so it's not genetics. I've heard phosphorous but the nectar line is full of it. When I try and clone with this condition it rarely is successful. Running out of ideas. Anyone run into this problem and solve it? Thanks in advance for any help. The first picture is what I originally get in soil the second is advanced stage in coco and the third is the condition starting after about 3 weeks in soil.

 

[BuddroGreen]

Phosphorus is usually an indicator of purpling, but a lot of strains have purple stalks and stems, you're sure this isn't genetics?

If you feel it's Phosphorus, add more Phosphorus, cannabis plants tend to love Phosphorus and it's not really likely that you would give it too much using standard nutrients, I would add some bloom nute which is higher in Phosphorus, or bloom booster which is high in P-K, start with a little and work your way up....bloom boosters can be strong, so be careful.

 

[Pewterdude73]

Thanks for the quick response BuddroGreen. Quite sure but not positive about the genetics. Reason saying is all my strains do it and it is accompanied by woody stems, slow growth, small leaves and a smoothness to the stem. The shape of the stem is not something i have read anything about but in my experience the healthier the plant, the more pronounced the ridges on the stems are. You can see an example in the first picture I posted. If it is phosphorus it is because it is getting locked out for some reason, maybe an excess of another nute, but the line I currently use (Nectar for the Gods) is quite high in phosphorus. The only consistent input I can think of is my tap water or maybe my led lights. I will keep seeking knowledge and if I come up with a definate answer I will post it. Thanks again.

 

[Antics]

It's not the lights.

I'd definitely look at PH, check your runoff. And always PH to 5.8 in coco. Me personally, I would completely ignore instructions that tell me to do the contrary of what I've learned from growers here with hundreds of years experience combined.

Is your PH meter calibrated correctly? If it's off, that's going to affect what you feed your plant, and at what PH level. You can check the calibration with distilled white vinegar (specifically), it will have a PH of 2.4. If it doesn't read 2.4 exactly, recalibrate or replace your meter.

After PH is verified, look closely at your nutes, and anything else you may be adding. Make sure there isn't an excess of Calcium, or Aluminum in what you're feeding, excess Ca or Al can affect Phosphorous intake.

Verify your nutes have plenty of Phosphorus available for the plant.
Reduce Ca and Al for a week and watch the plant closely.

 

[Pewterdude73]

Thanks for the feedback Antics. I like the white vinegar tip. Maybe I can stop buying calibration solution. I usually calibrate both of my meters to 7.0 and 4.0 as that is what I have for calibration solution. I have a HM ph meter and a cheapo to double check. Cheapo was a bad buy I think as both of the meters will read exactly 7.0 after calibrated but can differ as much as 4 tenths when checking solution. I also have drops but they are useless. I will try lowering my PH to see if that helps. Dont know if you are familiar with the Nectar line but it is a calcium based line. I dont pretend to understand it but go by what I am told by Scott the President. For instance one of their products is a 0-10-0 from bone meal. I is a calcium phoshate. So I would think that this calcium source would not work against the phosphorus source but that is just a guess. The problem is slowly going away so I am going to be patient for a few more days. Thanks again for the advice and the charts. I am mostly a lurker here on 420 and respect your advice as I have read many of your posts. Happy growing. I will try and report back with any findings.

 

[Antics]

I found the vinegar tip searching around online. I need to find a test solution for the higher end still though. Everything common that I've found so far has a PH that varies.

I bought one of those cheapos too. It worked ok for 2 grows, then it completely went way off scale and almost made me kill 2 plants (1 did die..)

I have the drops too, but I've found the digital meter is amazingly accurate. The drops test I have only goes in increments/color shades of 1-14 whole numbers only. So it makes accurate measurements impossible.

I'm not familiar with their products, but I can't imagine their nutrients would be different enough from any other nutrients that causes the plant to change the PH at which it intakes nutrients.

This is where things exceed my current level of knowledge. I know excessive nutrients can block others, but I don't know what consists of excess in terms of NPK numbers.

Patience is always a virtue. Sometimes it's best just to be see how things go before taking action.

As for you, there's no need to lurk around here. You'll find tons of growers, everyone with a varying opinion, some with agreeing opinions, but no flaming for asking "newbie questions" or making simple mistakes. Hell, I killed a plant from having a cheapo PH meter, and not one person made jokes about it.

And start up a grow journal man! People love to see how others grow, it's a way to learn from new growers, learn new ideas, techniques, etc.. And a lot of folks here smoke/vape as well, so you know there's always someone enjoying a smoke while brainstorming a new idea or technique. Just jump in over here and start up a journal bud: Journals in Progress

And quick EDIT to add info.. I just noticed the slow growth in the thread title, low Phosphorous would also cause slow growth. Cannabis Plant and Pest Problem Solver - Pictorial

So when we go back to the issue of PH, At 5.8 or 6.2 the plant shouldn't have any problems absorbing Phosphorous, in coco. Now the HM meter is a pretty good meter, have you checked calibration recently?

Are you testing the PH of nutes/water going in, and also testing the first bit of runoff that comes out? Knowing both numbers will give you a good idea what the actual PH is inside the coco. I would do this next so you know what's going on in the coco. And since coco is virtually impossible to overwater, flush if necessary, bring the PH back to a manageable range (5.6-6.0 is a workable runoff range IMO) and keep PHing all further nutes/water to 5.8.

Don't sweat it too much though man, every single grower runs into a tricky problem at one time or another. And this won't be the last time either. Every horticulturalist deal with problems.

 

[Pewterdude73]

Nice words of encouragement Antics. I just got my tax refund so i made the plunge and bought a bluelab combo meter. Always wanted one and my HM meter is 5 years old. I will start a journal if I can find the time. The Nectar line is somewhat unique. If you want to learn anything about it Scott the pres did a few very informative YouTube videos on monster gardens. Also if you email the company they will send you a huge sample pack. 6 quart bottles and a couple 10 ouncers. You have to pay like 20 bucks shipping and answer some environment questions but i am enjoying the line after a fairly steep learning curve. Thanks again for the info. Talk to ya later.

 

[Antics]

Nice words of encouragement Antics. I just got my tax refund so i made the plunge and bought a bluelab combo meter. Always wanted one and my HM meter is 5 years old. I will start a journal if I can find the time. The Nectar line is somewhat unique. If you want to learn anything about it Scott the pres did a few very informative YouTube videos on monster gardens. Also if you email the company they will send you a huge sample pack. 6 quart bottles and a couple 10 ouncers. You have to pay like 20 bucks shipping and answer some environment questions but i am enjoying the line after a fairly steep learning curve. Thanks again for the info. Talk to ya later.

Holy shit man, that's a hell of a nice meter you picked up! I was checking those out when I bought mine, but were way out of my price range. That thing makes my meter look like I'm using post-it notes to test my PH lol.
I would definitely hang on to the HM as a backup, or just to double check things. As long as it can be calibrated, definitely keep it. I'm sure you'll find a use for it.

I definitely suggest starting a journal. It's 100% helpful. You don't have to write a novel if time is an issue, but while you're in the grow room, it doesn't take long to snap a couple pics, and type up a quick summary of what's going on. Especially important things like nute levels, when you fed last, any lighting schedule changes, etc.. it gives you a place to look back and check on things if you happen to forget your last nute feeding, when you switched to 12/12, etc.. I couldn't tell you how often I've gone back through my journal to check on when I did something.

And on top of all that, other growers LOVE to see what someone else is doing in their grow. Cannabis horticulturalists always seem eager to share tips and tricks just as much as they're eager to learn new tips and tricks.

Thanks for the tip, I'll keep it in mind, but for now I'm set on nutes. I have my normal 3part that I use, and I have some SNS 604A and 604B I'd like to work into my next grow to check those out.

I've noticed a lot about growing Cannabis has a steep learning curve. Even different grow lighting, mediums, etc.. You learn like TONS all at once, and then after that continually learn new things.

 

[GuardCells]

Pewterdude,

Any update on how things are looking now? I have the same problem--purple/red stems and stunted growth. Similarly, my girls didn't start showing this until after about one month.

With bagseed grown in soil, they have been vegging for 2 months. I'm waiting to flip them, because I'm afraid they might turn male due to the possible stress.

 

[Pewterdude73]

Well the update is not much had changed. Fighting a fungus gnat infestation right now. Using bti. Not sure if it's working but one thing that's definite is that it's not helping my red stem problem. Water pipes freezing, chipmunks chewing on my wiring. One thing i know for sure is that if something can go wrong it will. Lol. I will definable update this thread if i figure out this problem.

 

[Lexalotacus]

Hey guys!
I've had this problem for longer than I can remember and I literally couldnt agree more with the images Pewterdude uploaded. Purple woody stems ARE NOT HEALTHY. Healthy plants will have lush, green, fuzzy and softer stems (hard stems will grow FAR slower than soft stems obviously)... I've found that my purple stems usually are accompanied by yellowing leaves? I've tried literally everything in the book aside from switching from tap water to RO water. Im curious if the hard tap water (calcium) is causing phosphorus lockout? We should keep this thread alive.. the pics are really important because purple hard stems ARE NOT GENETIC.

 

[Mestre]

Hey guys!
I've had this problem for longer than I can remember and I literally couldnt agree more with the images Pewterdude uploaded. Purple woody stems ARE NOT HEALTHY. Healthy plants will have lush, green, fuzzy and softer stems (hard stems will grow FAR slower than soft stems obviously)... I've found that my purple stems usually are accompanied by yellowing leaves? I've tried literally everything in the book aside from switching from tap water to RO water. Im curious if the hard tap water (calcium) is causing phosphorus lockout? We should keep this thread alive.. the pics are really important because purple hard stems ARE NOT GENETIC.

Good to know this, I have some purple spots on the stems of my plant and she has yellowing leaves on the bottom as well. Did you figure out what it is? I think I am having the same problem you had.

peace

 

[Lexalotacus]

Hey again, I just got a water testing kit from home depot that test overall hardness of water and mine was just above acceptable levels. However, if my water is like 120 ppm out of the tap that shouldn't be enough to cause calcium to lock out phosphorus? This whole thing is so frustrating

 

[Mestre]

Hey again, I just got a water testing kit from home depot that test overall hardness of water and mine was just above acceptable levels. However, if my water is like 120 ppm out of the tap that shouldn't be enough to cause calcium to lock out phosphorus? This whole thing is so frustrating

Yeah, it's all about the balance between pH/nutrients available

 

[Lexalotacus]

A couple of my friends have been dealing with the same issue and we are talking about trying RO water and seeing if there's just too much happening with our city water these days. I believe most cities release all the treatment 'ingredients' in a pdf format such as the one from the city of denver where we live and are having this issue (link below)

Home

Denver Water proudly serves high-quality water and promotes its efficient use to 1.4 million people in the city of Denver and many surrounding suburbs. Established in 1918, the utility is a public agency funded by water rates and new tap fees, not taxes.

denverwater.org

 

[updog]

I feel ya! I've been banging my head with this one for a while, but hopefully I'm closing in on the cause.

Slow growth, red stems and dead spots on the leaves (often start as a bright yellow mark on an otherwise dark green leaf). Affected both veg and flower plants, upper and lower leaves.

On whim, I decided to check my pH pen in a solution pegged at 7.0--read 8.0. So when I adjusted my nutrients to 6.0, in actuality it was probably closer to 5.0, which would seem to lockout phosphorus.

Anyone experience leaves like these before? If so, did you ever figure out what the problem was?

Thanks for reading!



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[Lexalotacus]

Well after some research and discussions with colleagues I'm going to start using a 3 stage water filter. We are going to assume for now that there are toxic levels of things such as chlorine in the city water that are destroying the microbial life at the roots and causing lockouts and such.. I'm gonna start calling it 'cannabis flu' (purple woody stems and wilty yellowing leaves).
The filter im using has a sediment filter followed by 2 carbon filters which should clean up the water nicely (I put new filters in today).
I just fed with some organic veg food to replenish the microbial life at the roots and will keep everyone posted on whether this helps them come back to life! Cheers!

 

[Lexalotacus]

I feel ya! I've been banging my head with this one for a while, but hopefully I'm closing in on the cause.

Slow growth, red stems and dead spots on the leaves (often start as a bright yellow mark on an otherwise dark green leaf). Affected both veg and flower plants, upper and lower leaves.

On whim, I decided to check my pH pen in a solution pegged at 7.0--read 8.0. So when I adjusted my nutrients to 6.0, in actuality it was probably closer to 5.0, which would seem to lockout phosphorus.

Anyone experience leaves like these before? If so, did you ever figure out what the problem was?

Thanks for reading!



Sent from my iPad using 420 Magazine Mobile App

can you show us the stems and overall growth of the plant?

 

[updog]

I don't have access to any other pictures right now, but the stems looked identical to the upshot photo at the top--with purple lines running through the stem and branches.


Sent from my iPad using 420 Magazine Mobile App

 

[Lexalotacus]

Hey guys not sure if anybody is still watching this thread but I'm trying a three stage filter and it seems to be working my new growth doesn't have the purple veins and stems or yellowing leaves so far ( only been 2 days) but I'll keep everyone posted I even have a plant that is a great example of before/after filtration