California's Proposition 19 Will Supersede Or Amend Its Medical Marijuana Laws

Proponents of California's Regulate Control and Tax Cannabis 2010 Initiative (Prop. 19) claim it will have no effect on California's medical marijuana laws, that it "explicitly upholds the rights of medical marijuana patients".

The language of the initiative says otherwise.

Yesterday, Russ Belville stated in a comment to his blog in The Huffington Post that "Prop 19 does nothing to change Prop 215 or your access to your current dispensary." Belville is NORML's Outreach Coordinator and Host of NORML Show Live.

Meanwhile, in an article that is causing quite a stir among proponents of ending marijuana prohibition, Dragonfly De La Luz lists 18 reasons "Pro-Pot Activists" oppose Prop. 19.

Regarding whether or not Prop. 19 will amend or supersede California's medical marijuana laws she had this to say:

While amendments were made ostensibly to prevent the initiative from affecting current medical marijuana law, a careful reading of the initiative reveals that this is not, in fact, the case. Certain medical marijuana laws are exempt from the prohibitions the initiative would enact, while others are glaringly absent.

Cultivation is one such law that is noticeably non-exempt.[17] In spite of the fact that the tax cannabis Web site says otherwise, the only medical marijuana exemptions that the Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Initiative actually makes are with regard to possession, consumption and purchase limits, which only ensure that patients would still be allowed to buy medicine at dispensaries. The word "cultivate" is conspicuously absent. Whereas today a person with a doctor's recommendation has the right to grow up to an unlimited number of plants, the initiative would drastically reduce that number to whatever can fit in a 5'x5' footprint (around 3-6 plants–per property, not per person). This will force many patients to resort to buying instead of growing their own medicine, because of the inconvenience caused by producing multiple grows a year rather than growing a year's supply of medicine at one time, as many patients currently do outdoors. And growing indoors–which typically requires special grow lights, an increase in hydro use, and a lot of time and attention–is a comparatively expensive endeavor.

The initiative would further impact medical marijuana patients by banning medicating in the privacy of their own homes if there are minors present, as well as in public (currently perfectly legal[18])–an invaluable liberty to those with painful diseases who would otherwise have to suffer until they got home to relieve their pain.

Finally, the medical marijuana laws that are exempted from this initiative apparently only apply to cities. For medical marijuana patients who live in an area that has county or local government jurisdiction, according to a strict reading of the initiative, medical marijuana laws are not exempt.[19]

The amendments she refers to were made after Comparing California cannabis/marijuana legalization initiatives was published 31 Jul 09 in Examiner.com. This article noted that the proponents of Proposition 19 had manged to get through 14 drafts without exempting medical marijuana patients from any of its provisions: not the unlimited taxes & licensing fees, not the possession & cultivation limits, not the prohibition on smoking in public or in sight of anyone under 18.

The amendments consisted of adding the phrase "except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9" to the end of Items 7 & 8 under Purposes.

The initiative mentions medical marijuana three times and omits mentioning it once.

The Mentions

The three mentions are Items 6, 7, and 8 in Section 2, B. Purposes.

6. Provide easier, safer access for patients who need cannabis for medical purposes.

The courts will determine that this means Prop. 19 is intended to amend and supersede California's medical marijuana laws; Proposition 215 (H&S 11362.5) and SB 420 (H&S 11362.7-H&S 11362.9).

7. Ensure that if a city decides not to tax and regulate the sale of cannabis, that buying and selling cannabis within that city's limits remain illegal, but that the city's citizens still have the right to possess and consume small amounts, except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.

8. Ensure that if a city decides it does want to tax and regulate the buying and selling of cannabis (to and from adults only), that a strictly controlled legal system is implemented to oversee and regulate cultivation, distribution, and sales, and that the city will have control over how and how much cannabis can be bought and sold, except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.

The first thing to note about these sections is that they are specific to cities. Nowhere does the word "county" appear.

In Item 7, "city" is specified 3 times, every way they know how: "if a city", "that city's limits", "the city's citizens". The rule of thumb is if you say something three times you mean exactly what you said.

This item exempts medical marijuana patients only in cities, and only with regard to how much they may possess and consume. It makes it legal to ban medical marijuana dispensaries, collectives, and delivery services. Unless the city enacts a sin tax, any buying and selling will be illegal.

The Omission

Section C, Intents, has two items.

Item 1 is a list of the laws Prop. 19 is "intended to limit the application and enforcement of". The inclusion of the phrase "including but not limited to the following, whether now existing or adopted in the future" opens the door for the argument to be made that Prop. 19 may (and most likely will) be interpreted to "limit" the "application and enforcement" of the now existing medical marijuana laws.

This interpretation is reinforced by Item 2 under this section, a list of state laws Prop. 19 "is not intended to affect the application or enforcement of".

Note that Item 2 is not open-ended. There is no "including but not limited to" modifier for this Item.

Conspicuously absent from either list are California's medical marijuana laws: Health & Safety Code Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7-11362.9.

These mentions and omissions occur in the 'preamble' of the initiative, titled Findings, Intent and Purposes. Concerns have been expressed regarding how legally binding these sections are and that nowhere in the sections to be added to California's legal code is there any mention of medical marijuana or any exemption for medical marijuana patients and providers.

Exploiting pain and suffering

Nowhere does the initiative exempt medical marijuana cultivators or distributors from the tax.

Proponents of Prop. 19 often argue that everything is taxed. This is not true. Illinois is the only state that taxes prescription pharmaceuticals, and that tax is 1%.

Proponents of Prop. 19 claim they want to tax and regulate marijuana like alcohol. It costs $450 to license a pharmacy in California and between $340-$580 to license a retail alcohol establishment. Long Beach claims 85 medical marijuana dispensaries and charges $14,742 for a license. Oakland has a limit of 4 dispensaries and charges them $30,000 for a license.

Proponents of Prop. 19 argue that it is illegal to consume alcohol in sight of anyone under 21 or in public. California is littered with sidewalk cafes and pizza parlors that serve beer, wine, and mixed drinks in public and in the sight of children.

To date the cities of Oakland (the home or Proposition 19), Sacramento (The State Capital), Long Beach, and Berkeley have announced proposals to tax medical marijuana in order to keep their medical marijuana dispensaries from being shut down should Proposition 19 pass.

The most liberal of these is Berkeley, where medical marijuana patients will pay 7.5% less tax than recreational users, and it will only cost them 2.5% more than the 9.75% in sales tax they're already paying.

Sacramento is proposing a sin tax of between 5% and 10% for recreational users and 2% to 4% for the sick and dying. "We're trying to get ahead of the process," said councilmember Sandy Sheedy, who proposed the ordinance.

Medical marijuana patients use considerably more than recreational users. Irv Rosenfeld receives 11 ounces per month from the federal government. Maine recently determined that it's medical marijuana patients would use 5 ounces per month, on average. The tax on medicine, besides being ethically inconsistent, falls most heavily on the sickest, who tend to be the poorest.

At $400 per ounce, a medical marijuana patient who needs 3 ounces a month will pay $138.60 tax per month in Oakland.

Meanwhile, no city or county in California has reversed itself on a ban or moratorium on medical marijuana dispensaries since Oakland (home of Prop. 19) passed Measure F, the first medical marijuana tax.

Meanwhile, several cases are working through the courts challenging medical marijuana bans, moratoriums, and regulations which are de facto bans, as discriminatory and in violation of California's medical marijuana laws. Passage of Prop 19 will remove any legal basis for these cases.

Taking the 'medical' out of 'marijuana'

Prop. 19 adds five sections to California's Health & Safety Code, §§ 11300-11304.

§11300 is titled Personal Regulation and Controls. Item a) begins with the phrase "Notwithstanding any other provision of law".

This section makes possession of more than an ounce or by anyone under 21 illegal. It also limits non-licensed cultivation to 25 square feet per residence or parcel, not per person.

If the authors of Prop. 19 wanted to protect medical marijuana patients, why did they say "notwithstanding any other provision of law"?

§11301 is titled Commercial Regulations and Controls. It begins with the phrase "Notwithstanding any other provision of state or local law". It prohibits sales to anyone under 21. Nowhere in this section is there any exemption for medical marijuana patients, cultivators, or distributors.

In addition to allowing cities and counties to ban commercial cultivation and sales (including medical marijuana collectives and dispensaries) it states the following:

(g) prohibit and punish through civil fines or other remedies the possession, sale, possession for sale, cultivation, processing, or transportation of cannabis that was not obtained lawfully from a person pursuant to this section or section 11300;

This means that the taxes and fees paid by the licensed commercial cultivators and distributors will be used to eliminate the competition. For example, Oakland (the home of Prop. 19) is in the process of licensing four cultivators to supply the approximately 6,000 pounds per year sold by the four licensed dispensaries. Bay Citizen put it this way:

Growing marijuana can be lucrative, but the city's proposed new rules would eliminate small-timers. It would cost $5,000 just to apply for a cultivation permit, and a regulatory fee of $211,000 for the lucky winners. If one has the cash, it's a small price to pay for the right to produce a crop with an estimated retail value of $7 million. The fee pays for regulating cultivation in Oakland, which will include enforcement against the guys with grow lights in their garages and backyard sheds.

The New York times reports that the leading contender for one of these cultivation permits is Jeff Wilcox, a member of the Proposition 19 steering committee. "Mr. Wilcox estimated that AgraMed would cost $20 million to develop."

Reasonable Accommodation

Current California medical marijuana law does not prohibit smoking in public. It is not currently illegal for medical marijuana patients to smoke in public or in sight of anyone under 18:

11362.79. Nothing in this article shall authorize a qualified patient or person with an identification card to engage in the smoking of medical marijuana under any of the following circumstances:

(a) In any place where smoking is prohibited by law.
(b) In or within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school, recreation center, or
youth center, unless the medical use occurs within a residence.
(c) On a schoolbus.
(d) While in a motor vehicle that is being operated.
(e) While operating a boat.

While debating Keith Kimber on Time4Hemp Chris Conrad stated Prop. 19 would have to win by a wider margin than Prop. 215 in order to supersede it. He reiterated this in an email that was passed around Facebook.

Even if it did conflict with or amend the medical marijuana laws, which it repeatedly does not do, Prop 19 would still have to pass by more than 56% to have any effect on Prop 215, which is highly unlikely.

Conrad is in error. The California Initiative Guide states the following:

If the provisions of two or more measures approved at the same election conflict, those of the measure receiving the highest affirmative vote shall prevail (Cal. Const., art. II, Section 10(b)).

This is not a case of two or more measures in the same election.


NewsHawk: Ganjarden: 420 MAGAZINE
Source: Examiner.com
Author: J. Craig Canada
Contact: Examiner.com
Copyright: 2010 Clarity Digital Group LLC d/b/a Examiner.com
Website: California's Proposition 19 will supersede or amend its medical marijuana laws

* Thanks to MedicalNeed for submitting this article
 
Wow...!

So I guess the missinformation that everyone was talking about was actually coming from the other side which said that it will further prop 215 and the medical bills when in fact it may take them away.

Again like if have said before this is not the right bill for us but was for the benifit of a business plan.
 
The there is this.
California’s Prop 19: A Word-For-Word Analysis

6. Provide easier, safer access for patients who need cannabis for medical purposes.

One blogger suggested that this point #6 would be enough for the courts to assume that the people meant Prop 19 to supersede patients’ medical rights under Prop 215, also known as California Health & Safety Code #11362.5. Somehow, #6 means that Prop 215 patients would suddenly be limited to 5′x5′ gardens and an ounce of medicine. Which seems odd to me, when you read further in #7 below…

7. Ensure that if a city decides not to tax and regulate the sale of cannabis, that buying and selling cannabis within that city’s limits remain illegal, but that the city’s citizens still have the right to possess and consume small amounts, except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.

…where they are saying that if your city doesn’t allow cannabis sales, you can still possess your one ounce, except if you’re permitted more than that under Prop 215 (11362.5). How could any court think that #6 means all of Prop 19 supersedes Prop 215 when a nullified Prop 215 means #7 is granting an exception that wouldn’t exist if it were superseded?

8. Ensure that if a city decides it does want to tax and regulate the buying and selling of cannabis (to and from adults only), that a strictly controlled legal system is implemented to oversee and regulate cultivation, distribution, and sales, and that the city will have control over how and how much cannabis can be bought and sold, except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.

If a city does allow cannabis sales it can regulate how much you buy and sell, except if you’re permitted more than that under Prop 215 (11362.5)… you know, the part that #6 supposedly supersedes.

I'd love to know what an unbiased Judge, Lawyer, The Friggin Presidents opinion is on all of this. That would be amazing but I doubt he will say anything positive as his drug war is the same as it has been. With no real action just false promises. Most likely will say as little as humanly possible on the subject.

I'm curious as to why he complained on the tax and not the price of a $400 ounce? The tax is $18 tax for every $1,000 in gross marijuana sales. It seems if the price dropped even to $200 an ounce before the tax it would be more affordable for everyone.
 
Yea it sucks but to be honest... some of us med patients are paying 200./oz already, gow it for pennies on the dollar, and able to have on hand as much as needed to insure we have safe access. But accorrding to this... we may have that taken away.
 
By removing the small scale mmj gardens, they will in essence remove the most important competition in the industry--the connoisseur growers and breeders. Sounds suspiciously like the tobacco industry to me, and smacks of greed. I won't be voting for Prop 19 the way it's written--it's too Nazi and takes away too many freedoms we've worked so hard to gain.
 
I can grow all that I need in a 3x3 tent let alone the 5x5 that is allowed under prop 19. I have no problem w/ people growing out of their homes being put out of "business." An industry like the tobacco company may rise out of this, but so what. Sick folks can go and purchase their medication from a regulated company while the connoisseurs and mj enthusiasts can still grow in the confines of home. One can still grow a shit load of mj in a 5x5 space.

It does not bother me that few will rise to the top of the industry while most will find themselves out. That is a sign of progress. I just want to grow and smoke cannabis. I have no intentions of competing with Oakland or anyone else for that matter.

If you are that good at producing the world’s finest, then I imagine the industry would seek you out.
 
Tell me if prop 19 is so good for us all why so many threads all the time trying to convince us of it? Spin plain and simple! I`m voting No in November!
 
I'll bite.


Tell me if prop 19 is so good for us all why so many threads all the time trying to convince us of it? Spin plain and simple! I`m voting No in November!

"Tell me if prop 19 is so good for us all..."

No one said it is good for all. Some argue that it's better than the current norm if we could even call it a norm.

"why so many threads all the time trying to convince us of it?"

This thread isn't. Being informed may leave one feeling less manipulated. The rational objective in decision making is to look at both side and form your own conclusion. Each side's objective is to convince others that their POV is correct just as you constantly do w/ your "vote no" remarks. It's easier to convince others if you could back that up w/ something.

"Spin plain and simple!"

Ok, so what's the real story, assuming your real last name isn't O'Reilly? I'm genuinely curious as to why some people are so fiercely opposed. Maybe I'm the lemming, but the naysayers offer little in terms of explaining why I should vote no.
:bongrip:
 
As for anyone that claims 215 and sb420 is protected because it says "paitients have right to consume and posses" please note it conspicously leaves out cultivation and collective association. The two cornerstones of prop 215 and Sb420.

Also bare in mind that limits for patients were struck down by the sepreme court.

This new bill may do away with that as well.
 
The news here at 420 is submitted and the better ones chosen and posted up.

This gives people a chance to form their own ideas and opinions of different areas of the worlds news and current circulating ideas without even leaving the site.

That gives everyone a chance to voice their ideas and opinions on these news stories, as many do not allow commenting on the original sites. In this manner the Cannabis Community forms its directions and movement that at that point can gain momentum or not.

It just so happens that the closer we get to Nov. the more the news will be focused on this Ballot issue. These are not posted to promote but to inform the 420 members of current news and developments in the Current World of Cannabis.

If you want to promote your ideas simply submit it to the news crew for review and posting of stories and etc.
 
I must admit that I was beginning to think this site was heavily biased. This is the first news article I've seen posted against legalization in so many weeks. Although the ratio is definitely askew, I'm glad that such an article has a presence on this forum, as most pro-cannabis, anti-monopoly patients such as myself have had to go about finding invaluable information like this on our own.
 
Yea it sucks but to be honest... some of us med patients are paying 200./oz already, gow it for pennies on the dollar, and able to have on hand as much as needed to insure we have safe access. But accorrding to this... we may have that taken away.

Prop 19 WILL take away safe access for us patients if need more than what we can grow in a 5x5 space. Instead of turning to our own supply, we will be forced to buy from a commercial establishment and from the looks of it, that means Richard Lee.
 
As I've posted on site previously.

One will still be able to grow another 5X5 space in any other non growing residence.
IE relatives friends and also "Lease" said space.
Maybe even land deeded in very small plots just to sell to growers?
There will be much outside of the box thinking that will result if 19 passes.
Just spend a minute thinking about it.
I think there will be some very interesting ideas used and played out through the courts.

I too have been curious about how this will affect Med. patients extra grey area of their laws.
I see NORML today has a story on this subject.
 
As I've posted on site previously.

One will still be able to grow another 5X5 space in any other non growing residence.
IE relatives friends and also "Lease" said space.
Maybe even land deeded in very small plots just to sell to growers?
There will be much outside of the box thinking that will result if 19 passes.
Just spend a minute thinking about it.
I think there will be some very interesting ideas used and played out through the courts.

I too have been curious about how this will affect Med. patients extra grey area of their laws.
I see NORML today has a story on this subject.

So if I cultivate in a 10x10 space, I will have to "lease" another 5x5 plot of my attic/basement/dormitory to another 21+ individual just to keep growing what I need which is already legal under prop 215? What if I can't grow enough because said individual wants more of my medication for their recreational use? Do I then have to resort to the store bought stuff?
 
I must admit that I was beginning to think this site was heavily biased. This is the first news article I've seen posted against legalization in so many weeks. Although the ratio is definitely askew, I'm glad that such an article has a presence on this forum, as most pro-cannabis, anti-monopoly patients such as myself have had to go about finding invaluable information like this on our own.

420 magazine is a reference site and community. We try to find all the latest news on Cannabis. We do not post negative articles here. Articles that present Marijuana in a negative way. Stories about stoners committing non-marijuana related crimes would be a good example. Obvious anti-marijuana propaganda would be another. Its easy for the anyone to find all those negative stories. Our mission is to counteract the negative and promote positive Cannabis awareness.

The majority of against articles use reefer madness and that is not what I want to continue, the yellow journalism that has been going on since this whole war started against this plant.
 
The sad part is that everyone is so focused on this piece of crap legislation, you hear very little about things like this:

No part of Prop 19 makes possession a simple infraction with a relatively minor fine. SB 1449 is progress. Prop 19 is the Louisiana Purchase all over again with the small and medium growers playing the part of the resident Native Americans. We as a community can do better. Contact these people, let them know how important it is that SB 1449 be acted upon and endorsed as law.

Currently, the punishment for a “gift” of marijuana from a 21+ to a 18-20 is a citation and $100 fine. Now it will be six months and $1,000.
 
I don't think it's a good example to compare this situation at all to the plight of Native Americans. I see the example you're trying to use, but no. Whatever happens to the small growers will not even be in the same ballpark as what the Native Americans have suffered, and are suffering.
 
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