We all were at one time. And those of us that have been there are only trying to help you become proactive.
You might try a nursery. I have found 5 lb bags there. But if you can find a five dollar, 40 lb bag, what have you got to lose?
How can I test my soil pH?
- Thread starter Tecumseh
- Start date
We all were at one time. And those of us that have been there are only trying to help you become proactive.
You might try a nursery. I have found 5 lb bags there. But if you can find a five dollar, 40 lb bag, what have you got to lose?
Droopy Dog
New Member
I've seen the smaller bags of lime. LOL, it was $9+ for a 5Lb bag and $5+ for a 40Lb bag. Doesn't take much to do the math. 
The big bag isn't all that much, especially if you have a garden or flower bed, or the like and the stuff is super dense.
I know you're concerned about the pH of your water. I water with everything from a pH of 8+ (ProTekt in the water), to 4-5 (EJ not bubbled long), to tap, ~7.2, with no ill effects.
This is due to a well limed soil mix and healthy micro herd, buffering the pH of whatever I dump in there to the mid 6's or so.
I just don't adjust the pH of anything going in and haven't bothered checking the pH in months. The plants are doing fine, so I just don't bother.
Get your soil right and don't worry about the pH of that well water. Unless it smells funny or turns your teeth red or something.
DD
The big bag isn't all that much, especially if you have a garden or flower bed, or the like and the stuff is super dense.I know you're concerned about the pH of your water. I water with everything from a pH of 8+ (ProTekt in the water), to 4-5 (EJ not bubbled long), to tap, ~7.2, with no ill effects.
This is due to a well limed soil mix and healthy micro herd, buffering the pH of whatever I dump in there to the mid 6's or so.
I just don't adjust the pH of anything going in and haven't bothered checking the pH in months. The plants are doing fine, so I just don't bother.
Get your soil right and don't worry about the pH of that well water. Unless it smells funny or turns your teeth red or something.
DD
- Thread starter
- #23
Tecumseh
New Member
I've seen the smaller bags of lime. LOL, it was $9+ for a 5Lb bag and $5+ for a 40Lb bag. Doesn't take much to do the math.
I know you're concerned about the pH of your water. I water with everything from a pH of 8+ (ProTekt in the water), to 4-5 (EJ not bubbled long), to tap, ~7.2, with no ill effects.
This is due to a well limed soil mix and healthy micro herd, buffering the pH of whatever I dump in there to the mid 6's or so.
I just don't adjust the pH of anything going in and haven't bothered checking the pH in months. The plants are doing fine, so I just don't bother.
Get your soil right and don't worry about the pH of that well water. Unless it smells funny or turns your teeth red or something.
DD
You make it sound so easy. Could it really be? I have a feeling that a year from now, I'll look back and laugh at how stupid I was. (hopefully it won't be from behind bars) (-;
I'm gonna go ahead and get the 40# bag. I'm gonna have to start buying some flowers or something too while I'm out. I have all of these gardening supplies and no visible plants.
Droopy Dog
New Member
It IS easy. MJ is just a plant and nothing really special, growing wise. LOL, I have more problems trying to grow crookneck squash. Seriously!
I think the complicated part comes from information overload, from magazine articles, and internet forums like this. Information is a good thing, but too much and you start over thinking/over reacting to small things and creating bigger problems in the process. One yellow leaf, and 15 different things get added to the soil or sprayed on the plant.
Instead of flowers, do some tomatoes. Tomatoes and mj are very similar AFA growing. Soil, nutes, pH and all that. Plus, you get something tasty to eat. If you can grow decent tomatoes, you can grow decent mj.
Growing mj is no harder, or more complicated than growing a decent vegetable garden.
DD
I think the complicated part comes from information overload, from magazine articles, and internet forums like this. Information is a good thing, but too much and you start over thinking/over reacting to small things and creating bigger problems in the process. One yellow leaf, and 15 different things get added to the soil or sprayed on the plant.
Instead of flowers, do some tomatoes. Tomatoes and mj are very similar AFA growing. Soil, nutes, pH and all that. Plus, you get something tasty to eat. If you can grow decent tomatoes, you can grow decent mj.
Growing mj is no harder, or more complicated than growing a decent vegetable garden.
DD
MrSullyWoo
New Member
I am not a grower nor a user of your products, but rather I was searching for some info and this thread came up as a result. I could not help but reply - sorry.
First off, LIME is not a stabalizer per se, but most often raises alkalinity or ph. When people speak of ph, they refer to the amount of "potential Hydrogen", which is on a scale from 1 to 14. Most plants thrive at a pH of 5.8-6.4, although not all plants are the same.
But, what is more important when growing in soil media is the alkalinity, which is not the same as pH. pH can be alkaline, but alkalinity is different. If you are growing hydroponically, then you don't care a bit about pH, but instead focus on alkalinity.
A tomato likes a relatively low pH. The reason I likes a low pH is because it has certain tendencies to not take up certain nutrients at higher pH levels. It falls into the same category as a petunia or snapdragon I believe, which are referred to a poor iron assimilators.
If you soil is at a pH of 5.5 to 6.0, all macro and micro nutrients are at the maximum available levels. As pH rises, certain nutrients become less available to plants, or they become more available. Same goes for pH declines. A tomato grown in a media pH of 7.0 will struggle, not because nutrients are lacking, but because they cannot access and assimilate the nutrients. Some plants, such as a geranium, are known as efficient iron scavengers, and they may grow at higher pH levels because they are able to get some nutrients at higher pH levels.
If you raise or lower the pH too much plants can access too much nutrients and go into toxic states. Plants that are very efficient iron scavengers like geraniums and marigolds would definately show toxic symptoms at pH levels below 5.9 or so. In contrast, a tomato will show deficiency symptoms at pH levels above 6.5 usually. It is possible to lower the pH too low for a tomato, even though needs lower pH to thrive.
Now, here is the key idea. Alkalinity. If you have a cup of water, and that water is at pH of lets say 5.5, and you pour that water into soil, it has the "power" to change the soils pH of lets say a factor of 1. But, lets way that you had another cup of water, and that cup of water had an alkalinity of 150 ppm CaCO3 (calcium bicarbonate), and you poured that water into the same soil, that high alkaline water (with lets say a pH of 6.0) would have maybe a factor of 1,000,000. It isn't pH that changes soil, it is alkalinity.
CaCO3 or calcium carbonate/calcium bicarbonate is basically what lime is. Water supplies that eminate from a well will generally have a high alkalinity as they pass through rock, and often get limed on the way up.
Soil has certain characteristic, the most notable is called the CEC or caition exchange. Good soil has a lot of CEC sites. This is best thought of as a particle of soil is a parking lot. Good soils have lots of large parking lots. Bad soil has few lots. The nutrients (N,P,K, etc) are cars. The cars are parked in the lots, and the plants consume the cars when they need them. The plants don't just take though, they replace. So a lot full of Volkwagons (nitrogen) might be replaced with a bunch of Studebakers (Hydrogen).
Now, when you pour water in that has lots of CaCO3, it acts like a Hummer. CaCO3 has a strong valence or charge, so it basically plays the bully and kicks out the Volkswagons and others. Literally the Hummers hog all the available parking spaces. Unfortunately, the Hummers are not really useable by the plants, and the Hummers cause the pH to rise. Not a good situation.
So, when you lime your soil, you put lots of CaCO3 in the soil,which might be rising the pH to a point where the plant struggles. If you have very acidic water (lack of CaCO3) or very acidic soil, then lime is a good choise to bring the pH back to an optimum level.
But the reverse can be true, where your water is very high in CaCO3 and the more you use it, the more liming you are essentially doing. After a timespan, your soil begins to change (rising pH) because your water is liming it every time you water.
In large areas of soil like your garden or yard, if it were alkalinic due to the nature of soils or most likely due to irrigating with high CaCO3 water, you would add elemental sulfur usually. Sulfur breaks down into sulfates and sulfuric acid. Sulfuric acid "neutralizes" CaCO3, creating water and calcium.
So, if you want to get some really good growth, and really know what you are doing, stop just throwing lime into your soil and start examining your water. You still might need to lime, but then again, you might not. Start learning about alkalinity.
As I leave, let me give you some criteria for your irrigation water. If you have very small plants like seedlings, you want your water to have about 60-80 ppm of alkalinity. For larger pots, like 6" and up, you can "normally" safely go to 120 ppm of alkalinity. Too little alkalinity means there is nothing to buffer the nutrients you add, and you can get burn and toxicity. Too much alkalinity means that the parking lots are going to be full of Hummers (CaCO3) and not much else can get into the lots, and your plants will show deficiencies.
There is a LOT to learn, but focus on alkalnity and see if you don't get some better results in the future.
First off, LIME is not a stabalizer per se, but most often raises alkalinity or ph. When people speak of ph, they refer to the amount of "potential Hydrogen", which is on a scale from 1 to 14. Most plants thrive at a pH of 5.8-6.4, although not all plants are the same.
But, what is more important when growing in soil media is the alkalinity, which is not the same as pH. pH can be alkaline, but alkalinity is different. If you are growing hydroponically, then you don't care a bit about pH, but instead focus on alkalinity.
A tomato likes a relatively low pH. The reason I likes a low pH is because it has certain tendencies to not take up certain nutrients at higher pH levels. It falls into the same category as a petunia or snapdragon I believe, which are referred to a poor iron assimilators.
If you soil is at a pH of 5.5 to 6.0, all macro and micro nutrients are at the maximum available levels. As pH rises, certain nutrients become less available to plants, or they become more available. Same goes for pH declines. A tomato grown in a media pH of 7.0 will struggle, not because nutrients are lacking, but because they cannot access and assimilate the nutrients. Some plants, such as a geranium, are known as efficient iron scavengers, and they may grow at higher pH levels because they are able to get some nutrients at higher pH levels.
If you raise or lower the pH too much plants can access too much nutrients and go into toxic states. Plants that are very efficient iron scavengers like geraniums and marigolds would definately show toxic symptoms at pH levels below 5.9 or so. In contrast, a tomato will show deficiency symptoms at pH levels above 6.5 usually. It is possible to lower the pH too low for a tomato, even though needs lower pH to thrive.
Now, here is the key idea. Alkalinity. If you have a cup of water, and that water is at pH of lets say 5.5, and you pour that water into soil, it has the "power" to change the soils pH of lets say a factor of 1. But, lets way that you had another cup of water, and that cup of water had an alkalinity of 150 ppm CaCO3 (calcium bicarbonate), and you poured that water into the same soil, that high alkaline water (with lets say a pH of 6.0) would have maybe a factor of 1,000,000. It isn't pH that changes soil, it is alkalinity.
CaCO3 or calcium carbonate/calcium bicarbonate is basically what lime is. Water supplies that eminate from a well will generally have a high alkalinity as they pass through rock, and often get limed on the way up.
Soil has certain characteristic, the most notable is called the CEC or caition exchange. Good soil has a lot of CEC sites. This is best thought of as a particle of soil is a parking lot. Good soils have lots of large parking lots. Bad soil has few lots. The nutrients (N,P,K, etc) are cars. The cars are parked in the lots, and the plants consume the cars when they need them. The plants don't just take though, they replace. So a lot full of Volkwagons (nitrogen) might be replaced with a bunch of Studebakers (Hydrogen).
Now, when you pour water in that has lots of CaCO3, it acts like a Hummer. CaCO3 has a strong valence or charge, so it basically plays the bully and kicks out the Volkswagons and others. Literally the Hummers hog all the available parking spaces. Unfortunately, the Hummers are not really useable by the plants, and the Hummers cause the pH to rise. Not a good situation.
So, when you lime your soil, you put lots of CaCO3 in the soil,which might be rising the pH to a point where the plant struggles. If you have very acidic water (lack of CaCO3) or very acidic soil, then lime is a good choise to bring the pH back to an optimum level.
But the reverse can be true, where your water is very high in CaCO3 and the more you use it, the more liming you are essentially doing. After a timespan, your soil begins to change (rising pH) because your water is liming it every time you water.
In large areas of soil like your garden or yard, if it were alkalinic due to the nature of soils or most likely due to irrigating with high CaCO3 water, you would add elemental sulfur usually. Sulfur breaks down into sulfates and sulfuric acid. Sulfuric acid "neutralizes" CaCO3, creating water and calcium.
So, if you want to get some really good growth, and really know what you are doing, stop just throwing lime into your soil and start examining your water. You still might need to lime, but then again, you might not. Start learning about alkalinity.
As I leave, let me give you some criteria for your irrigation water. If you have very small plants like seedlings, you want your water to have about 60-80 ppm of alkalinity. For larger pots, like 6" and up, you can "normally" safely go to 120 ppm of alkalinity. Too little alkalinity means there is nothing to buffer the nutrients you add, and you can get burn and toxicity. Too much alkalinity means that the parking lots are going to be full of Hummers (CaCO3) and not much else can get into the lots, and your plants will show deficiencies.
There is a LOT to learn, but focus on alkalnity and see if you don't get some better results in the future.
Well, as you said, you are not a grower.....
MrSullyWoo
New Member
Actually I said I am not a grower of your product. In fact I manage the water and soil for about 65,000 sq feet of crop in a greenhouse. I use 96% sulfuric acid to neutralize the alkalinity in our water. Vinegar works OK, but switch to citric acid for better results. And btw, there is an alkalinity calculator available as an excel spreadsheet that will allow you to input your waters alkalinity and it tells you how much sulfuric/phoshporic or citric acid to use.
You can take it or leave it, doesn't matter to me. It is however pretty common knowledge. It makes crops very different if done right. Done properly, it can and will provide more fruit, which in your case is what you are after I assume.
You can take it or leave it, doesn't matter to me. It is however pretty common knowledge. It makes crops very different if done right. Done properly, it can and will provide more fruit, which in your case is what you are after I assume.
- Thread starter
- #28
Tecumseh
New Member
Oh great, an opposing opinion. Are you guys F'ing with me or what? LOL That's a common problem here. I ask a question and get 2 totally different answers.
Sully does raise some interesting points. I've tested my well water with a TDS meter and unfiltered I get a reading of around 230ppm. I don't know how much of that is calcium carbonate, but I assume that it's mostly calcium carbonate as I live in an area with many limestone mines. If I were to dig down in my yard I'd probably get about 5 feet before I hit limestone. Actually, without heavy equipment, I probably wouldn't get that deep because of the layer of red clay. The clay starts about 12-18 inches below the surface. So, once again I'm confused and undecided.
It's not fair. I have a friend who lives about 5 hours away. He's using the same soil and nutes that I am (the evil M.G.), and he's using well water. His freakin' plants look amazing. One difference, his well water has a slight sulfur smell to it. That may be his secret. I dunno.
Sully does raise some interesting points. I've tested my well water with a TDS meter and unfiltered I get a reading of around 230ppm. I don't know how much of that is calcium carbonate, but I assume that it's mostly calcium carbonate as I live in an area with many limestone mines. If I were to dig down in my yard I'd probably get about 5 feet before I hit limestone. Actually, without heavy equipment, I probably wouldn't get that deep because of the layer of red clay. The clay starts about 12-18 inches below the surface. So, once again I'm confused and undecided.
It's not fair. I have a friend who lives about 5 hours away. He's using the same soil and nutes that I am (the evil M.G.), and he's using well water. His freakin' plants look amazing. One difference, his well water has a slight sulfur smell to it. That may be his secret. I dunno.
MrSullyWoo
New Member
You know, there is a right and a wrong in this case. What others are stating might be true, IF you have the matching symptoms. But, just telling others to use lime or add vinegar is sort of shooting in the dark at the real problems. I know, I have been learning and implementing for about 15 years now, but have been involved in the green industry for about 24 years. In that time, I have seen plants nearly double in size, double in blossom count/size, have tremendous intesity in colors (vs looking back as rather faded colors), and be overall healthier -- all of this ONLY once I stopped focusing on pH and started focusing on the waters alkalinity and how it impacts the soil. You must know what your soil is like to be spot on accurate, but if you just have a generic guess at where it is, it will eventually become what your water is. Those are just the facts. Unless of course you ammend your soil with something like dolomite lime, in which case it might help or hurt, depending on your situation.
I have been doing my own alkalinity tests for a couple years now rather than sending them off to the lab. I have tested roughly 200 sources of water where I live. Most wells are moderately alkalinic, at about 200ppm CaCO3, while most rivers and fresh water lakes are ideal at roughly 90ppm CaCO3. Springs and spring fed lakes tend to be very bad, like around 500-700ppm CaCO3. Wells can vary, a few have been very good, and a few very bad. I have been tracking the physical locations of the samples, and I have mapped them to a USGS map of the aquifers in my area. Much of the differences you have from your neighbors will be dependent upon how deep your well is, and which aquifer you are in. I see trends in wells that are at the same depth and in the same aquifer.
All this to say, that while people can be very well meaning, it also pays to do the hard work of research of your own to verify advice. Take a visit to North Carolina State or Ohio State, or Oregon State or Purdue or Cornell, there are skads of great documents that will certainly confuse you
but also will help to educate you. Whether your growing annuals, tomatos or "herbs", the rewards can make the effort "far out, dude"
I have been doing my own alkalinity tests for a couple years now rather than sending them off to the lab. I have tested roughly 200 sources of water where I live. Most wells are moderately alkalinic, at about 200ppm CaCO3, while most rivers and fresh water lakes are ideal at roughly 90ppm CaCO3. Springs and spring fed lakes tend to be very bad, like around 500-700ppm CaCO3. Wells can vary, a few have been very good, and a few very bad. I have been tracking the physical locations of the samples, and I have mapped them to a USGS map of the aquifers in my area. Much of the differences you have from your neighbors will be dependent upon how deep your well is, and which aquifer you are in. I see trends in wells that are at the same depth and in the same aquifer.
All this to say, that while people can be very well meaning, it also pays to do the hard work of research of your own to verify advice. Take a visit to North Carolina State or Ohio State, or Oregon State or Purdue or Cornell, there are skads of great documents that will certainly confuse you
but also will help to educate you. Whether your growing annuals, tomatos or "herbs", the rewards can make the effort "far out, dude" MrSullyWoo
New Member
Oh, and as to how to test your soil pH, there are two ways that are acceptible for an end user, the pour thru, and the 2:1. A lab will screen the soil, dry the soil to a certain moisture content, then perform the tests. I don't know about you, but that is a lot of work for a soil sample.
The pour thru is pretty easy and does not disturb plants too bad. Water the plant like normal, making sure it is nice and wet. A couple hours later, place something under the plant to catch the water. I deal with paks and 4-6 inch plants, you likely have a much larger container. Anyway, for a 4" pot, I then add 75milliliter of distilled water. This "should" produce roughly 50ml of water that drains out of the plant. If none drains, then either your pot is too large and you need more water, or the soil is not moist all the way through. The idea is to pour distilled water in, and as it passes by the soil, it recieves the pH and salt in form of EC. To test EC (indicates salts, which could be sodium or nitrogen for example) you should have only about 50ml of liquid out the bottom of the plant. Any more than that and you begin to dilute the EC results. For pH, what I have read is that the amount is not as critical (so you could have 100ml come out, and the pH will be the same). The pH needs to be read within 2 hours though, as it begins to change after this. Anyway, just stick a good pH meter in the resulting liquid and read it.
The other method, favored by a fertilizer chemist I know well, is called the 2:1 method. You take 2 parts distilled water to 1 part soil (less roots, bark, twigs, etc). You let it sit for 30 minutes, then put your pH meter in the slurry and get the results. Watch out for time released fertilizers, as they can skew the results. You would have to pick those out. I use small dixie cups for this method. I like this method the best, but I have to destroy small plants to get enough soil, so I only use it on large pots, like 10 gallon containers etc.
The soil meters you can buy, with single/double probes, IMHO don't offer very accurate results. There is a product called a RapiTest, which tests N, P, K and pH using a very small sample of soil, a little distilled water, and a little pill of powder that offers decent results. You wait a little bit for the reaction to take place, and then do a color comparison. I use these when I am pinched for time, and they are generall within a tenth of a point, or about as close as my eye can match the color, whichever is better lol.
Hanna instruments are junk IMHO. I have had quite a few, some budget, some of the top models. I use Acorn brand, which is sold by Cole Parmer. I get about everything from Cole Parmer anymore. Acorn might be made by Eutech, which also has good gear. I have some inline probes for pH and EC which I have to a data logger. I built a program to monitor my inline probes and alert me when things get way out of range. I use Dosmatic injectors for my fertilizer, I use Plant Marvel fertilizer, and I use LMI injectors for my sulfuric acid. You can use an EC meter to easily determine exactly how much N you are applying with liquid fertilizers.
I don't really care for Miracle Gro, nor Peters/Scotts/Technigro. If you live in the south, they tend to work much better than where I live. Nothing wrong with them, but the right fertilizer can make a huge difference. A lot of people use the fertilizer to manage thier alkalinity.
One thing I have noticed in my time doing this, is that feeding the miracle gro way (once every 10 days to 2 weeks) works, but is inferior to feeding every day, every time you water. It is like giving the plant a buffet, and telling it in 10 days you are going to give it another buffet. It is hard to tell if the plant got enough food or those 10 days, or it if was hungry after 6 days. It promotes more rapid growth for the first few day, followed by moderate, then slow growth. The method of feeding it every day tends to produce visibly different results (if you are looking for it) - you give it a square meal a day, and the growth pattern becomes quite predictable.
The pour thru is pretty easy and does not disturb plants too bad. Water the plant like normal, making sure it is nice and wet. A couple hours later, place something under the plant to catch the water. I deal with paks and 4-6 inch plants, you likely have a much larger container. Anyway, for a 4" pot, I then add 75milliliter of distilled water. This "should" produce roughly 50ml of water that drains out of the plant. If none drains, then either your pot is too large and you need more water, or the soil is not moist all the way through. The idea is to pour distilled water in, and as it passes by the soil, it recieves the pH and salt in form of EC. To test EC (indicates salts, which could be sodium or nitrogen for example) you should have only about 50ml of liquid out the bottom of the plant. Any more than that and you begin to dilute the EC results. For pH, what I have read is that the amount is not as critical (so you could have 100ml come out, and the pH will be the same). The pH needs to be read within 2 hours though, as it begins to change after this. Anyway, just stick a good pH meter in the resulting liquid and read it.
The other method, favored by a fertilizer chemist I know well, is called the 2:1 method. You take 2 parts distilled water to 1 part soil (less roots, bark, twigs, etc). You let it sit for 30 minutes, then put your pH meter in the slurry and get the results. Watch out for time released fertilizers, as they can skew the results. You would have to pick those out. I use small dixie cups for this method. I like this method the best, but I have to destroy small plants to get enough soil, so I only use it on large pots, like 10 gallon containers etc.
The soil meters you can buy, with single/double probes, IMHO don't offer very accurate results. There is a product called a RapiTest, which tests N, P, K and pH using a very small sample of soil, a little distilled water, and a little pill of powder that offers decent results. You wait a little bit for the reaction to take place, and then do a color comparison. I use these when I am pinched for time, and they are generall within a tenth of a point, or about as close as my eye can match the color, whichever is better lol.
Hanna instruments are junk IMHO. I have had quite a few, some budget, some of the top models. I use Acorn brand, which is sold by Cole Parmer. I get about everything from Cole Parmer anymore. Acorn might be made by Eutech, which also has good gear. I have some inline probes for pH and EC which I have to a data logger. I built a program to monitor my inline probes and alert me when things get way out of range. I use Dosmatic injectors for my fertilizer, I use Plant Marvel fertilizer, and I use LMI injectors for my sulfuric acid. You can use an EC meter to easily determine exactly how much N you are applying with liquid fertilizers.
I don't really care for Miracle Gro, nor Peters/Scotts/Technigro. If you live in the south, they tend to work much better than where I live. Nothing wrong with them, but the right fertilizer can make a huge difference. A lot of people use the fertilizer to manage thier alkalinity.
One thing I have noticed in my time doing this, is that feeding the miracle gro way (once every 10 days to 2 weeks) works, but is inferior to feeding every day, every time you water. It is like giving the plant a buffet, and telling it in 10 days you are going to give it another buffet. It is hard to tell if the plant got enough food or those 10 days, or it if was hungry after 6 days. It promotes more rapid growth for the first few day, followed by moderate, then slow growth. The method of feeding it every day tends to produce visibly different results (if you are looking for it) - you give it a square meal a day, and the growth pattern becomes quite predictable.
I certainly don't have the credentials that MrSullyWoo has. I'm just a humble gardener that's been willing to share my experiances here at 420 for the last couple of years. The advice I offer is based solely on those experiances and interaction with other gardeners. I wish you the very best in your future gardening endeavors...
- Thread starter
- #32
Tecumseh
New Member
Dude, I appreciate any and all advice given and I thank you for it. I'll just have to learn for myself through my own experiences to find out what works for me. But in the mean time, any well meant advice is accepted and appreciated greatly.
MrSullyWoo
New Member
And there is nothing wrong with that. The fact that you share rather than hoard your knowledge is golden IMO. Often it is better to perform simple steps rather than get mired down in the technicalities, much less frustrating. However, with plants, a lot can be frustrating because there is so much information available.
When you start giving advice that is a blanket statement, that is where most gardeners find the most frustrations, at least our customers do. We start at the bottom line - what is your soil and what is your water. We educate and work with the customer to understand (at least as much as they want to) some basics. We give seminars that are always packed, and people generally love to find out why and then how to fix issues.
There is not a one-stop fix for this topic unfortunately, especially on the web where acidic soils in one state are vastly different from calciferous soils in another (meaning your fix may not work for me due to geographic differences). Too bad I suppose.
And that is precisely the problem associated with gathering advice from forums...you have no idea of the agenda of the folks that you are receiving advice from. Now while I cannot dispute the validity of MrSullyWoo's claims, I can certainly question his loyalties. By his own admission, he does not grow "our product". There are many devoted and knowledgable gardeners on this forum that share my appreciation and admiration of this amazing plant, who give of themselves because of their loyalty and desire to promote Cannabis awareness. I have seen a number of folks come through here that seem to have great knowledge in a particular subject, only to see them disappear quickly, imo, because they lack the same loyalty and desire. So, with that being said, I encourage you continue your search for knowledge here at 420, and hope you come to see and know what an amazing "product" Cannabis is...
Droopy Dog
New Member
Same here.
A lot of great info from Mr Woo on soils and such, but these 'blanket' statements weren't made towards soil, like in the garden, but rather mixes that most of us use that are peat based soilless mixes.
Big difference in what I do in the garden and what I do with container plants. I make my own mix, mostly peat moss and perlite and EWC. Other amendments follow, and one of the first is lime, knowing that the pH of that peat mix will dip below 5 if it is not added.
DD
MrSullyWoo
New Member
You guys are right, I won't be here long. I just stumbled upon this in a google search, and while in my youth I was inclined to partake in reefer, I don't anymore. (btw, I liked creeper the best, but hated the coughs, and never ever take a hit from a homade pvc steamroller until the glue is dried, and never ever ever take a hit from a gravity bong using a 2.5 gallon tide luandry detergent jug -- it just isn't worth it lol ). So while I don't plan on sticking around long, I do appreciate informations, and that is all I was trying to share.
You are correct about soils, in that earth is very different from bagged mixes. However, unless you are "rolling your own", you need to be aware of what goes into the mix. A lot of mixes are made with a standard recipe of 8lbs/yard of dolomite lime. It is true that peat moss and coco coir are acidic, but after wetting the soil with lime in it, in 2-3 days the lime will acitvate, and the pH will rise. I have a full truckload of soil in from canada in which they limed us but we want a maximum 2lbs/yard, and we are seeing a lot of issues because of it. The unfortunate part is that when you have too much lime, you cannot put something in the soil to correct it in a container. Elemental sulfur would work, but you risk toxicity pretty easily. If the soil is acidic, adding lime is a nice way to bring the pH up without much risk of toxicity.
Most bagged potting soil we see are pretty much soiless, and as such are more prone to being modified by the irrigation water. The peat helps to buffer this, but in the end it will depend on whether they used lime in the mix or not.
And as per my loyalties, don't just take my word for it, go check it out yourself. I gave you some universities to scope out. You will find however that everything I said is true. What you do is up to you, its not my business to say you should or should not. But, for anyone who wants to go a little deeper, I hopefully have given you some infos you can expand on and who knows, maybe you can apply it and grow some big nasty stinkies.
I didn't even go into CO2 generators or microrhizomes. If you don't know what
microrhizomes are, you might want to check that out, works symbiotically with your roots providing more contact with nutrients in the soil
You are correct about soils, in that earth is very different from bagged mixes. However, unless you are "rolling your own", you need to be aware of what goes into the mix. A lot of mixes are made with a standard recipe of 8lbs/yard of dolomite lime. It is true that peat moss and coco coir are acidic, but after wetting the soil with lime in it, in 2-3 days the lime will acitvate, and the pH will rise. I have a full truckload of soil in from canada in which they limed us but we want a maximum 2lbs/yard, and we are seeing a lot of issues because of it. The unfortunate part is that when you have too much lime, you cannot put something in the soil to correct it in a container. Elemental sulfur would work, but you risk toxicity pretty easily. If the soil is acidic, adding lime is a nice way to bring the pH up without much risk of toxicity.
Most bagged potting soil we see are pretty much soiless, and as such are more prone to being modified by the irrigation water. The peat helps to buffer this, but in the end it will depend on whether they used lime in the mix or not.
And as per my loyalties, don't just take my word for it, go check it out yourself. I gave you some universities to scope out. You will find however that everything I said is true. What you do is up to you, its not my business to say you should or should not. But, for anyone who wants to go a little deeper, I hopefully have given you some infos you can expand on and who knows, maybe you can apply it and grow some big nasty stinkies.
I didn't even go into CO2 generators or microrhizomes. If you don't know what
microrhizomes are, you might want to check that out, works symbiotically with your roots providing more contact with nutrients in the soil
Droopy Dog
New Member
LOL. confused yet?
Remember I mentioned something about information overload a few post back?
DD
- Thread starter
- #38
Tecumseh
New Member
LOL. confused yet?
Remember I mentioned something about information overload a few post back?
DD
,....just a little.
I've got lime and sulfur. I'm gonna do a little experimenting with some clones. We'll see what works best. If nothing else, I'll learn something.
Droopy Dog
New Member
That's really the only way you learn how to grow, doing something and observing.
Just don't be in a hurry! I've never used sulfur, not garden sulfur anyway, but lime takes at least 2 weeks to start having any noticeable effect, and I would bet sulfur is in the same catagory.
Apply it, give it time to work, and then see what's what.
DD
MrSullyWoo
New Member
Lime activates when wetted, and starts to change pH in 2-3 days usually, in a soil mix. Not sure on how fast it activates in earth.
Elemental sulfur requires microbial activity, moisture and temperature to break down. Top dressing the soil with sulfur takes longer to effect, but will. Working it into the soil a bit is best. Soil temps at 75 F or above tend to break it down fairly quick, but soil temps at 85 F breaks it down something like 50% faster than 75 F, so there is an exponential curve there.
You should use caution when using elemental sulfur in a potting mix in a container as it can create problems if it breaks down too fast. We have used a little bit in large vegetable peat pots, like say 24" x 36", and the results were ok, but I don't think the soil temps reached much past 70 in our climate.
A better solution might be Osmocote ACR (Azalea, Camelia & Rhododendron), which is hard to find now, but I think it is Miracle Gro that makes something called Shake and Feed for the same plants. It is a sulphur based product with a little bit of ammoniacal based nitrogen. This product is a 3 month release, based again on temp and moisture. It works wonders on soil with too much lime, and we have not seen it burn anything yet in about 15 years of using it. We put a handful of that in every basket we make here, and that is something like 10,000 in total.
As I mentioned earlier, many people use fertilizers to keep thier alkalinity in control. Some of you might want to go organic, which is a little harder to do IMO. I would suggest using the HappyFrog line. They have a good selection and likely have something that fits your needs. We use some different products of thiers as well to add to certain crops.
If you don't have qualms about using regular fertilizer, then you can dial it in more effectively. Just be aware there are 2 main types of nitrogen you will see - ammoniacal and nitrate. Both are nitrogen, but ammonical tends to be acidic (drops pH) and nitrate tends to be neutral (raises pH). Numbers like 18-6-18 are great for hot weather and high alkaline soils, as the high amount of ammonical base drops the pH and pushes a lot of growth. But beware it doesn't stretch your plants! Numbers like 13-2-13 use a lot of nitrate base, and actually have the opposite effect where the pH can rise, and growth is very short, dark and thick. Using something like 17-5-17 is more neutral, barely dropping pH at all, but offering a nice compromise in growth rates.
I have done a lot of experimenting, and if you are focusing, you will see differences. Here is something I just learned recently - when too much calcium is in the soil, there is a certain "saturation point" where it starts to actually repel water, making it difficult to keep wet. Gypsum is a good example of this, which is very high in calcium and sulfur. Some people might use it to lower pH, although all the university articles I have read say it does not change pH, but only adds the elements calcium and sulphur. But, too much gypsum could have negative effects.
There is no doubt all of this can be confusing -- and why shouldn't it? It is chemistry after all. But, if you really want fantastic results, you have to learn something. Those who add this or add that, after some time doing it, can then say "add lime" because it worked for them. Some might say "monitor your alkalinity" because it worked for them. Others just say "use some chicken poo" because it worked for them. It all works. But, depending on who you are, maybe the fact that it "just works" isn't enough, maybe you want to know why it works. Or maybe you have tried recommendations and really can't see your results the same as the ones who give advice. Persevering through the initial confusion and complexity eventually gives way to simplicity. Once you know what your soil is like, your water is like, and what you need to do to keep things optimal, a basic plan is developed that works. Once you get the basic plan, you can then start fine tuning it, maybe researching why calcium is so important at initial stages, and how you can load it into the tissue of the seedlings and how that can effect the mature plant later in its life.
Elemental sulfur requires microbial activity, moisture and temperature to break down. Top dressing the soil with sulfur takes longer to effect, but will. Working it into the soil a bit is best. Soil temps at 75 F or above tend to break it down fairly quick, but soil temps at 85 F breaks it down something like 50% faster than 75 F, so there is an exponential curve there.
You should use caution when using elemental sulfur in a potting mix in a container as it can create problems if it breaks down too fast. We have used a little bit in large vegetable peat pots, like say 24" x 36", and the results were ok, but I don't think the soil temps reached much past 70 in our climate.
A better solution might be Osmocote ACR (Azalea, Camelia & Rhododendron), which is hard to find now, but I think it is Miracle Gro that makes something called Shake and Feed for the same plants. It is a sulphur based product with a little bit of ammoniacal based nitrogen. This product is a 3 month release, based again on temp and moisture. It works wonders on soil with too much lime, and we have not seen it burn anything yet in about 15 years of using it. We put a handful of that in every basket we make here, and that is something like 10,000 in total.
As I mentioned earlier, many people use fertilizers to keep thier alkalinity in control. Some of you might want to go organic, which is a little harder to do IMO. I would suggest using the HappyFrog line. They have a good selection and likely have something that fits your needs. We use some different products of thiers as well to add to certain crops.
If you don't have qualms about using regular fertilizer, then you can dial it in more effectively. Just be aware there are 2 main types of nitrogen you will see - ammoniacal and nitrate. Both are nitrogen, but ammonical tends to be acidic (drops pH) and nitrate tends to be neutral (raises pH). Numbers like 18-6-18 are great for hot weather and high alkaline soils, as the high amount of ammonical base drops the pH and pushes a lot of growth. But beware it doesn't stretch your plants! Numbers like 13-2-13 use a lot of nitrate base, and actually have the opposite effect where the pH can rise, and growth is very short, dark and thick. Using something like 17-5-17 is more neutral, barely dropping pH at all, but offering a nice compromise in growth rates.
I have done a lot of experimenting, and if you are focusing, you will see differences. Here is something I just learned recently - when too much calcium is in the soil, there is a certain "saturation point" where it starts to actually repel water, making it difficult to keep wet. Gypsum is a good example of this, which is very high in calcium and sulfur. Some people might use it to lower pH, although all the university articles I have read say it does not change pH, but only adds the elements calcium and sulphur. But, too much gypsum could have negative effects.
There is no doubt all of this can be confusing -- and why shouldn't it? It is chemistry after all. But, if you really want fantastic results, you have to learn something. Those who add this or add that, after some time doing it, can then say "add lime" because it worked for them. Some might say "monitor your alkalinity" because it worked for them. Others just say "use some chicken poo" because it worked for them. It all works. But, depending on who you are, maybe the fact that it "just works" isn't enough, maybe you want to know why it works. Or maybe you have tried recommendations and really can't see your results the same as the ones who give advice. Persevering through the initial confusion and complexity eventually gives way to simplicity. Once you know what your soil is like, your water is like, and what you need to do to keep things optimal, a basic plan is developed that works. Once you get the basic plan, you can then start fine tuning it, maybe researching why calcium is so important at initial stages, and how you can load it into the tissue of the seedlings and how that can effect the mature plant later in its life.
