Leaves twisting up over night - Possible causes?

H

HerbGnome

New Member
Hey guys, overnight some leaves have decided to do some massive twisting and some are pointed straight up. I am not 100% sure about what problem is causing this. The dark spots and curling seems indicative of a phos def. However I've also read nutrient lock outs/burns can cause twisting leaves. Heat could cause leaves to curl up, but my temps have never exceeded 73* so I don't believe that is the culprit. I have not seen this issue before with clones and the light I am using so I don't think it could be light burn either.

I have half blueberry(sativa), half true og kush(indaica dom) not sure the exact %.
8 plants in total
veg week 1 (6 days after I transplanted clones into the tote)
indoor, hydro grow
res size is capable of 55gals, holds 12gals on average
res temp is 68-70*
I am using rapidrooters and hydroton as a medium
I am using low pressure aeroponics (sprayers)
1 600w LED
temps have been stable at 73*
RH is 30-35%
PH has been between 6.4 and 6.1
ppm has been a little high around 480, GH sched says I shuold keep it below 400 for week 1.
no pests,
watering cycle -> 15 seconds on, 25 minutes off.
nutes are GH flora series veg week 1 + hydroguard +great white + z7. I use half strength.
4ft grow tent.

Here are some pics of the problem. it is affecting 2 of my plants most heavily, but other plants leaves are slightly twisty in one or two places.
IMG_20161228_150337.jpg
IMG_20161228_145646.jpg
IMG_20161228_145619.jpg
IMG_20161228_145604.jpg


I made some changes to the grow set up yesterday (the day before this happened). I adjusted my spray timer from 20min off to 25 minutes off (15 seconds on both times). I did this because I am worried about overwatering the hydroton in the netpot and creating an environment for root rot in the hydroton, but perhaps this is a silly fear. I lost my last grow to root rot, I think mainly because of improper sterilization, but also perhaps because my rapid root insert was practically at the bottom of the netpot, which made it get super waterlogged. I now may be going overboard with the infrequency of the spray timing, as my rapid root inserts are much higher and drier now. With that said, roots still appear/feel wet today, netpots absolutely have water still, they drip quite a bit when it take them out tilt it slightly.

In addition I added a humidifer to the room yesterday. The humidity didn't go passed 32% while I was checking on it, but I believe it may have gotten as high as 69% according to my hygrometer during the night, but I am not sure about this, it has given me strange readings before. When I checked today, the humidity was 32% again. maybe the humidity increases at night because it can't dry up as quick witht he light turned off. Not sure if this could cause an issue or not.

My best bet is this is a phos deficiency, because of the dry feel of the leaves affected and the slight dark spots that are on the affected leaves, but I wanted to ask here for second opinions! I will be flushing out the system and replacing the nutes (half strength) tomorrow morning at the latest. However if I see some feedback indicating this is due to a nute burn, I will likely use 25-33% nute strength.

Thanks for your time and feedback!
 
They do love to rot when watered logged its actually a prerequisite and your doing it again by the sounds of it

I would be lowering the water level ( look into that) and use a air pump not a water pump.

Make sure the PH and PPM are in range , if your not using meters buy them

Good luck with it , don't give up smarten up as its always us every time.

For starters
Remove the covers and let the plants breath , buy some damp off apply it and re do your tank and apply more damp off or equivalent and keep the covers off , let the Clay and roots breath.

And

Mix the nutrients at no stronger then 1/2 strength , cross your fingers they bounce back they are hurting.

Remember to use * Damp off *
 
I don't believe I have root rot, but it is possible. I sterilized the system in entirety once, disassembled every bulk head, grommet, and pvc part in the manifold/tote, scrubbed and sterilized those separately, then scrubbed and sterilized everything once more, then ran a bleach solution with the entire system assembled. Finally before I entered the new plants I emptied every drop of water inside the system. I would be surprised if any bacteria survived.

I don't have waterlogged rapid root inserts anymore, they are barely damp since I moved them much higher in the netpot this grow. The hydroton at the bottom of the netpot is pretty wet, but I don't think the bottom layer being wet is really an issue, as DWC grows with the bottom inch of it completely submerged according the the cannabis grow bible by greg green.

Even if my hydroton is fairly wet, my res temps have always been below 71*, and the hydroton hangs in air when the sprayers aren't on. I can't imagine the roots cannot get enough o2, I even run the air pump while the roots haven't come down, just so the water sprayed onto the netpots has some o2. I run Hydroguard, great white, AND z7 specifically to deter root rot as well. These conditions should deter root rot to my knowledge, but maybe I am mistaken.

I am not sure what you mean by lowering the water level as I am using aeroponics. do you mean the water height inside of the reservoir? Or something else?

I have a ~500 gph air pump, and what do you mean don't use a water pump? I use a water pump to get water to the spray manifold.

I have given the PH and PPM readings, I am about 80ppm too high could that cause the leaf curl?

I will take your advice and remove the covers

I am using half strength already.

I am trying to find Damp off, but having a hard time. would you be so kind as to throw me a link?
 
Your in aeroponics , I thought you were splashing the roots with water but your not right your using straight up proper mist ?

My advice was thinking you were in dwc using the splash to aerate method , my bad I was suggesting to dry it out as they look root rotted to me.

Their life is in peril

I tried Aeroponics with mister nozzles and high psi pump two grows ago and ditched it in favor of dwc / rdwc


Damp off is a old name a new one I am aware of is "green up" look for it.


Also , make sure the PH is set proper as it will kill a plant just as fast as root rot

And

Refresh the tank it will eliminate the chances of it causing further problems , in case its the issue.

One thing is certain you have done something along the way that caused this , its always us.

Calmag deficiencies are common , look into that as well.

That's all I got for you , best of luck with it keep positive and make some changes.

if its not PH or PPM and has cal mag then it must have root rot , IMO
 
yep, I am using sprayers. Thanks for the advice, I swapped out the reservoir just now using only 33% nute strength to be safe, I assume this is a nute burn, or lockout. Added some calmag in there, hoping for the best.

I think some of the leaves of the plants are showing symptoms similar to root rot symptoms as well I just don't understand what more I could do to tame root rot. The insert is not water logged, I've sterilized everything multiple times, I spent weeks bleaching, I bought a huge air pump, I lowered my room temp to 73F, and my res temps never goes passed 71F. on top of that I use 3 different additives specifically to stop root rot! If it is root rot, I am at a loss at what I can do to stop it.
 
Try setting the spray duration shorter and spread further apart.

Let everything dry out a bit a week or two of more parched conditions may well help.

Worth a try not sure if there is anything more to do ..

A fan on low will help dry the lower stalk out if its soggy and will generally freshen things up.


Your very close to solving this , I can only think they have root rot and need the treatment , and dryer conditions.

edit again ( 71* is not great 67 up to 69* is something to shoot for )
 
For your sake I am hoping it was just Cal Mag , Cal mag deficient plants bounce back fast once they have been treated.

Also Root rot is visible , you could pull a few pebbles back and have a look for a black or brown mushy stalk / root.

They can rot off fairly shallowly when they rot , well reasonable shallow.

You will solve this
 
I appreciate the quick responses and encouraging words man, I hope it was calmag too, only time will tell.

I have been checking the roots, they seem super white not like last time when I know I had the root rot. The stem is definitely dry as well, no brown/mushy spots, the stem startsabove the netpot where the hydroton is bone dry. Some of the roots on the top of the insert have actually dried out from what it looks like.

I have done all I can for tonight, I will post back with how the respond to the nute change
 
Leaves have gotten worse this morning sadly. I can rule out any toxicity issues from the nute swap. I keep checking the roots for signs of root rot, but still no visual signs of damp off or brown/slime on roots. The symptoms do seem like root rot though, causing random deficiencies and all that.

I think I am going to try bumping up the nute strength and see if they respond better by tomorrow. if they do, it was a simple deficiency problem. I only experienced the problem after I lowered the ppm of the water as well.

On a side note would RO water filter out the root rot bacteria? I've read in a couple places the water itself may carry the disease. I get my water from a well. Maybe I should invest in an RO system.
 
As far as I have read , rot develops more then gets blown in , it can be transferred but it takes a weak or sick plant or bad tank to let it take hold generally.

The water treatment keeps everything fresh , if temps or in check


You started out clean and have been using the right stuff to keep the tank fresh , and the roots / stalk is not brown making root rot seem unlikely.

With what you have said i can only think you used too much water treatment ? were you combining them ?

Sounds like you have a good grip on what needs to be done its a mystery what the problem is.

If cutting the nutes brought it on then it may well be the cause the part that seems odd is that aeroponics requires less nutrients then conventional hydro.

Maybe hand water / feed for a while , I really don't know could be its too weak , look into before bumping back up to be safe.

There is a answer , now where to find it

I thought weak nutes would help not hurt wtf is with that .. could your pens / meters be out of Wack ?


That would solve the mystery fast
 
I was combining water treatment: hydroguard, z7, and great white (mycorhizae). I believe I read that these shouldn't conflict with each other, I am pretty positive great white + hydroguard is ok, and I believe it says on the z7 bottle that it is ok to use with bacteria supplements, but I am not in front of the bottle right now so don't quote me. Perhaps these were creating a mess though, I am not 100% on the compatibility.

The problem getting worse could bea def or a root rot thing I would think, I am religiously checking the roots for visual confirmation of the root rot, even with my water treatment.

I actually calibrated the PH meter this week, readings were normal according to the calibration solutions, so I am pretty confident that it is ok, but that is a good idea. Perhaps my PPM meter is off, but I have no calibration solution to check that atm.

We shall see by tomorrow if the problem is getting worse after I bumped up the nutes to 50%. If it does get worse, I bet I have rot or some other disease/fungus somehow sneaking around, the water treatment is a little overboard/conflicting, or maybe some massive kind of transplant shock. I will keep notes, and one way or the other I shall learn :]
 
Yeah you should really get some ppm calibration mix , ppm meters are pretty durable but they still drift out the cheaper ones drift further and faster.

It also best to calibrate the PH pen ( and ppm pen) when things start going haywire in the grow and keep checking its calibration until you know things are solved.

If the ppm pen was reading low by 400 and you dropped the PPm in 1/2 it would cause some issues for you.

I feel hopeful its your problem it would be a easy fix ( hoping)

Can only check
 
thanks for the advice and the chart guys. I shall re-calibrate once more and adjust ph to 5.8.

In update,I noticeed a lot of new growth on my blueberry haze plants, and some minor growth on the true og kush plants over night since I upped the nutes, this is a good sign. I should have said this earlier but the deficiencies are only affecting my true og kush atm. Tragically the deficiencies are getting worse it appears, the afflicted leaves are further curling, and feel dried out. they show dark spots in some places, sometimes a little brown. here is a picture of the most afflicted plant today:

IMG_20161230_192432.jpg


I am again checking the roots, but so far everything is pearly white! Im getting a good amount o f roots coming in as well. in fact the most afflicted plant seems to have the most advanced root system of the 4 true OG kush strains thatI have.

The solid growth on one strain but continued def on the other leaves me feeling unsure about how to proceed, I think I will stay on a steady course and simply adjust ph a bit lower for now to 5.8. I again appreciate the help!
 
Just updating further, I have adjusted the PH to 5.8 for the last few days and I think the spreading of the deficiency has greatly slowed down, new leaves aren't getting affected and all of the plants are showing good growth!

I am pretty confident what got me back on track was either upping the nutrient strength or getting my ph down to the 5.8 range. I would bet it was the ph because I was looking at those charts and some others and noticed P has a hard time getting absorbed at anything above 6(which my ph range was), and my def symptoms sure look a lot like a P def.

so far things are looking better, I again appreciate the time and the help! I hope to post later on with pictures of the new growth
 

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