Plasma Build

[CanaHealer]

Hey all,

I am beggining a project that is a bit different and I thought I would through it out there to see if other members have any experiance, input or thoughts on the matter.
I am going to build a light based around one of these.

They create a very full spectrum, but lack on the red end somewhat for an ideal flowering spectrum. I plan to aquire some all red led to supplament and see what happens. Any input would be greatly appriciated, especially on the amount of red supplamentation to bring this light up to an ideal curve.

I think this gadget is pretty darn cool and look forward to getting to play around with some new technology. I have no plans for any side by side against any other type of lighting or anything of that nature. I just feel like I need a project (dont know if you ever get that feelin')

Anyways, I will post some pics up when the unit comes in. I think it wont be for a few weeks. My supplier is still checking avaliablility for the specific model I want.

Well let me know what you folks think.
Thanks,
CanaHealer




For those unfamiliar with it, The light, is in the most simple terms, basically a MH with no fillament. Instead of with a filament, the gases are instead excited with RF (specifically microwave).

Here are a couple of grow vids I found using the light I am purchasing.

YouTube - Plasma light grow with Cannabis

Lastly, For those of you who are going to say that this light isnt better than traditional HID, Thank You I get it. I am not doing this project to build a better light than yours. I want to play with something different and I cannot afford any of the good LED panels out there right now. I like projects, stuff that is just different, and well... driving myself crazy. So haters, please, just let me enjoy myself.

 

[Envirotech]

Luxim LiFi lights were first developed for the rear projection screen tv's and was used exclusivly by Panasonic. Before you put out cash for them, you can find them cheaper. I ran accross a company who was selling the bulb, "ballast" and power supply for $600 I'm sorry i don't have a link but it was a company who specialized in DIY projectors. I ran across it by googling Luxim LiFi tv light. Or even better yet get a Panasonc RPtv from circa 2007 and use the light from it.
I'm interested to see how they work. I'm going to start a test myself using induction light with added thre wavelengths of red and far red led's but i'm getting a independant grower from this site to do the test for me.

 

[CanaHealer]

ET,
Thanks, Yea that is about the price I am expecting to pay I think a bit more for a ac/dc/ power supply to power it. I have seen pictures of the ones from the TV's and they are in a different less versatile form factor.
My main interest is to see what adding some specific red wave to balance the Lifi spectrum closer to par. I would like to do a run with the lifi alone and then add some extra red and see the differences in growth performances. I will have to find some decent red only ufo's or something. If I have the time I would even like to design and build an array myself and integrate it with the lifi. Something similar to the lumatek model in the youtube vid.

 

[Envirotech]

diyprojectorkits.com

 

[CanaHealer]

diyprojectorkits.com

Click and buy (my favorite). Thanks envirotech.
They don't have the sta-41 models listed. Only the STA-40. I gave them a call but got an answering service. Hopefully they can get the 41 model.
The bulb is positioned out of the ceramic wave guide further in the sta-41's and more light is produced than in the 40 models.

The big question I am pondering is how to figure out how much red power to add.
The Luxim spec sheet lists the Lumen rating and gives a spectrum graph with intensity measured in AU units.
https://www.luxim.com/pdfs/STA 41.pdf

I cant seem to find any info on correlating the Absorbency units into a watt related power, that I can relate to LED watts. No distance is given?
I know that I should be able to figure out something from the lumen rating, which is higher in relation to PAR than traditional HID because of the strong full spectrum output between 500 & 600nm.

I found this:

and I think I should be able to pick a wavelength, say 500nm which for the 41-02 is approx 1AU on their graph. plug in the #'s and get something. I have no clue really though, all of this is really over my head. It has been many years since the few physics courses I had in school.

Basically though if this light is throwing around .8 "AU" on average between 400 & 500nm. Then I think I would want to supplement with enough red to about double their ~.6au to around 1.2 to 1.3.
Problem is what the heck does giving me a spectral graph in AU do for me, Unless I am understanding things wrong; Their graph is only showing me the proportional power of the total spectrum and no power unit that is relatable to watts.

Anyways, hopefully someone will point me in the right direction on that.
cuz I am confused on this one. lol

 

[Envirotech]

Click and buy (my favorite). Thanks envirotech.
They don't have the sta-41 models listed. Only the STA-40. I gave them a call but got an answering service. Hopefully they can get the 41 model.
The bulb is positioned out of the ceramic wave guide further in the sta-41's and more light is produced than in the 40 models.

The big question I am pondering is how to figure out how much red power to add.
The Luxim spec sheet lists the Lumen rating and gives a spectrum graph with intensity measured in AU units.
https://www.luxim.com/pdfs/STA 41.pdf

I cant seem to find any info on correlating the Absorbency units into a watt related power, that I can relate to LED watts. No distance is given?
I know that I should be able to figure out something from the lumen rating, which is higher in relation to PAR than traditional HID because of the strong full spectrum output between 500 & 600nm.

I found this:

and I think I should be able to pick a wavelength, say 500nm which for the 41-02 is approx 1AU on their graph. plug in the #'s and get something. I have no clue really though, all of this is really over my head. It has been many years since the few physics courses I had in school.

Basically though if this light is throwing around .8 "AU" on average between 400 & 500nm. Then I think I would want to supplement with enough red to about double their ~.6au to around 1.2 to 1.3.
Problem is what the heck does giving me a spectral graph in AU do for me, Unless I am understanding things wrong; Their graph is only showing me the proportional power of the total spectrum and no power unit that is relatable to watts.

Anyways, hopefully someone will point me in the right direction on that.
cuz I am confused on this one. lol

it looks fine in the reds actually. Good in all wavelengths up to IR. Just have a look what HPS SPD graph looks like this is superior. I wouldn't add anything. Spend the money on something else like a co2 set up or something else you need.
What is the difference from the 40 and the 41? i couldn't find anything on the 40.

 

[Envirotech]

I found the difference between the 40 and the 41. The 40-2 in the recommended light for grow according to thier web site. It has more red and the CCT is a little lower but the output is less . more of the light is producing red this explains why it is not as bright. This is probably the light that chameleon is using. The 40-1, 41-2 & 41-2 are all classified as for general lighting.

 

[CanaHealer]

The 41 style is in the camelion.
You can tell when you look at it. The 40 models have half of the bulb burried into the ceramic wave guide and the 41 models have the bulb set mostly exposed and in a perpendicular orientation when compared to the 40. I believe that the lights are the same otherwise. the only difference is the way the bulb is mounted in the ceramic. The 41's expose more of the bulb and therefore have the higher lumen ratings. I saw that the 40's were what was recomended for Hort. However, I am not too sure why? It appears the spectral output is the same with either model, both the 40 & 41's having a 01 & 02 version. It seems to me that the one that outputs the most light would be best for plants?
I also like that the 41 has a bit of a flange and four mounting holes. This should make a home build much easier to work with.

One of the Camelion lights

STA-41

STA-40

STA-41 spec sheet
https://www.luxim.com/pdfs/STA 41.pdf
STA-40 spec sheet
https://www.luxim.com/pdfs/STA 40.pdf

 

[Envirotech]

The 41 style is in the camelion.
You can tell when you look at it. The 40 models have half of the bulb burried into the ceramic wave guide and the 41 models have the bulb set mostly exposed and in a perpendicular orientation when compared to the 40. I believe that the lights are the same otherwise. the only difference is the way the bulb is mounted in the ceramic. The 41's expose more of the bulb and therefore have the higher lumen ratings. I saw that the 40's were what was recomended for Hort. However, I am not too sure why? It appears the spectral output is the same with either model, both the 40 & 41's having a 01 & 02 version. It seems to me that the one that outputs the most light would be best for plants?
I also like that the 41 has a bit of a flange and four mounting holes. This should make a home build much easier to work with.

One of the Camelion lights

STA-41

STA-40

STA-41 spec sheet
https://www.luxim.com/pdfs/STA 41.pdf
STA-40 spec sheet
https://www.luxim.com/pdfs/STA 40.pdf

Interesting...looks like the bulb you want is the -02 series as in both the 40 and the41 the -02 seems to have better reds because both -02's are warmer CCT 5300K only if these were in the 3000K range they would be much better for a grow light. The output isn't as good as i thought they would be 14000-23000 lumens. I have a massive sulphur plasma at 4500K 1000 watts It is truly "the sun" blnding bright and has incredible PAR output. I havn't been able to use it though because of the grow space it requires. I have shelved it until i get some other projects up and running first namely our EFDL/LED hybrid. Will explore the sulphur plasma in the future and try to get the price down.

 

[CanaHealer]

Yea I think that these Lumix lamp would greatly benifit from some supplamental red in the spectrum. They are strong everywhere but in the red to far red. I think it would be very interesting to do some comparisions of the light on its own and then with red supplamentation.
I have seen the sulphurs plasma, That is awesome that you have one, too bad you aren't able to put it to use at the present time. Does yours rotate the glass bulb? That was the one thing I wondered about with the lamps I have seen. I am not a fan of moving parts unless neccesary. I wonder why they cannot get the sulfur lamps to function without the glass rotation. It must be a difference in how the Sulfurs heats up vs MHs.
I have seen your EDFL's very cool too. Do you have any pics or vids up of the EDFL/LED combo light?
I have a stovetop that uses inductioin technology and it is pretty trick. Who would have ever though we would be cooking and lighting with electromagnets. lol

 

[TorturedSoul]

I have seen your EDFL's very cool too. Do you have any pics or vids up of the EDFL/LED combo light?

I believe he's still in the process of finalizing the combo light. Here is a video of the EFDL (without supplemental LED wavelength) in action:
YouTube - Inductiongrow

Something tells me that you'll probably have a chance to see a grow-journal with the LED-enhanced EFDL when it's ready.

 

[CanaHealer]

TS,
Is that the 400w EDFL? That thing is cranking out some good light by the looks of the lower colas. They are far from the lamp and still filling out very nice.

Something tells me that you'll probably have a chance to see a grow-journal with the LED-enhanced EFDL when it's ready.

I would love to see and will be looking out for that journal!

 

[CanaHealer]

Well it looks like I am not going to be able to find a sta41 anywhere. The manufacturer wants as much for a development kit as camelion wants for one of their lights so maybe I will just have to play with sta-40 to satify my need for a project.

 

[TorturedSoul]

TS,
Is that the 400w EDFL? That thing is cranking out some good light by the looks of the lower colas. They are far from the lamp and still filling out very nice.

I believe that Envirotech stated in the thread I grabbed it from that it's one of his current-generation 300-watt 2700k Parmax EDFLs - the next-generation (coming soon) enhanced product will have the extra wavelength(s?) in the form of supplemental LED; that will undoubtedly be even better.

Yes, I agree that the plant in the video looks great. I did notice what looks like a couple of small "consumer-lighting" type CFLs in those work-light "hats" but I'm not sure whether they were used to help grow the plant or if they were only used to more fully illuminate and/or "white-balance" everything when the guy made the video. In any event, those reflectors are quite inefficient for horticultural use as they have their bulbs in a vertical orientation (in regards to the reflector) which means that almost all of the light coming from the CFLs comes from the sides of the bulb and has to hit the reflector and bounce to the plant... IOW, even if they were used during the grow, IMHO they wouldn't have contributed a great deal and relatively little in relation to the EFDL on top.

I would love to see and will be looking out for that journal!

Hopefully, it will show what the new enhanced EFDL can do. If I heard the little birdie right, the grow won't be using any "exotic" methods/materials. Just a simple reliable setup with proven - but standard - nutrients, something that should make a good benchmark grow. Easily repeatable by anyone, and if a person wishes to use some sort of expert growing method and/or high-dollar nutrients, they might well expect to do even better. That seems like it would be a lot more useful to people than if the grower spent a mint on materials/products/nutrients, which might end up producing more at harvest time but would not really be useful in showing the average grower what he/she could reasonably expect in their setup.

You might even get to see some of Envirotech's Parmax CFLs in use during the vegetative cycle as well. I've seen a picture of them and they're unlike any CFL bulb that I've seen/used and their design goes a LONG way toward mitigating one of the weaknesses I've always attributed to the usual higher-wattage (non-spiral) CFL bulbs. So in terms of showing lighting technology that isn't exactly well-known (yet!) in the cannabis-world, it might end up being a "two for one" kind of journal.

Well it looks like I am not going to be able to find a sta41 anywhere. The manufacturer wants as much for a development kit as camelion wants for one of their lights so maybe I will just have to play with sta-40 to satify my need for a project.

Is the sta-40 something that you can modify to suit your application? And I believe Envirotech mentioned some televisions that used lighting that was along the lines of the type you're talking about. Might be worth your time to keep a lookout on your local Craigslist, at yard sales, et cetera to see if you can find one that is non-working but still has a functioning light. And considering that the prices of new televisions has dropped considerably in the past few months, you might even conceivably find a working one for less than the cost of what you're looking at. IDK, I don't know what kind of price you're talking about. But you never know.

 

[Envirotech]

I believe that Envirotech stated in the thread I grabbed it from that it's one of his current-generation 300-watt 2700k Parmax EDFLs - the next-generation (coming soon) enhanced product will have the extra wavelength(s?) in the form of supplemental LED; that will undoubtedly be even better.

Yes, I agree that the plant in the video looks great. I did notice what looks like a couple of small "consumer-lighting" type CFLs in those work-light "hats" but I'm not sure whether they were used to help grow the plant or if they were only used to more fully illuminate and/or "white-balance" everything when the guy made the video. In any event, those reflectors are quite inefficient for horticultural use as they have their bulbs in a vertical orientation (in regards to the reflector) which means that almost all of the light coming from the CFLs comes from the sides of the bulb and has to hit the reflector and bounce to the plant... IOW, even if they were used during the grow, IMHO they wouldn't have contributed a great deal and relatively little in relation to the EFDL on top.



Hopefully, it will show what the new enhanced EFDL can do. If I heard the little birdie right, the grow won't be using any "exotic" methods/materials. Just a simple reliable setup with proven - but standard - nutrients, something that should make a good benchmark grow. Easily repeatable by anyone, and if a person wishes to use some sort of expert growing method and/or high-dollar nutrients, they might well expect to do even better. That seems like it would be a lot more useful to people than if the grower spent a mint on materials/products/nutrients, which might end up producing more at harvest time but would not really be useful in showing the average grower what he/she could reasonably expect in their setup.

You might even get to see some of Envirotech's Parmax CFLs in use during the vegetative cycle as well. I've seen a picture of them and they're unlike any CFL bulb that I've seen/used and their design goes a LONG way toward mitigating one of the weaknesses I've always attributed to the usual higher-wattage (non-spiral) CFL bulbs. So in terms of showing lighting technology that isn't exactly well-known (yet!) in the cannabis-world, it might end up being a "two for one" kind of journal.



Is the sta-40 something that you can modify to suit your application? And I believe Envirotech mentioned some televisions that used lighting that was along the lines of the type you're talking about. Might be worth your time to keep a lookout on your local Craigslist, at yard sales, et cetera to see if you can find one that is non-working but still has a functioning light. And considering that the prices of new televisions has dropped considerably in the past few months, you might even conceivably find a working one for less than the cost of what you're looking at. IDK, I don't know what kind of price you're talking about. But you never know.

Hey guys,
Just to give you an update, i have the new housing made and two wavelengths of leds installed. I'm just waiting for my deep deep red led's to come and i'll have it ready however i'm at a cross road, My EFDL suppler has just come out with a new spectrum 2100K. This spectrum is much more like the color of HPS and suppose to have more reds than the 2700K. I have a few comming. These new lights are the round ring shape so it also makes it easier to incorporate the leds. I'm thinking of waiting for this light instead of using the 2700K. We know the 2700K works well i'm not sure if the 2100K will work as well but theroetically it should be better.

As for the cfl's used in the grow, it is used to supply some UV for better trichome production and is suppose to make a denser bud too.
As for the ST 40 it is a bit lower in light output but will it perform any worse than the 41? It has more red wavelengths than the brighter 41 and it is the recommended light for grow by Luxim so i think it's worth a try. The Chameleon's with led suppliments is $6900 !! So building your own with the ST 40 from DIYprojector is a bargain...if it works. I would love to see how they perform next to our EFDL/LED light as it is the same wattage. Maybe if you build a test light Cana we can do a side by side in the future!

I'm thinking of retailing our EFDL/LED 320 watt for around the same as what a 300 watt led sells for in the $900 range but we'll see after the test. Exciting times for new technology!!

 

[SnowBender]

My EFDL suppler has just come out with a new spectrum 2100K. This spectrum is much more like the color of HPS and suppose to have more reds than the 2700K. I have a few comming. These new lights are the round ring shape so it also makes it easier to incorporate the leds. I'm thinking of waiting for this light instead of using the 2700K. We know the 2700K works well i'm not sure if the 2100K will work as well but theroetically it should be better.

Waiting to hear how the 2100 stack up.... please feel free to post your thoughts and results over here... What color temp to buy? Induction bulb

 

[CanaHealer]

ET,
That sounds great.
As far as your EDFL's go that would be a bummer if you put all that time into a led supplament and then along comes the 2100k to make it all for not. Hopefully the 2100k does have a solid spectrum that will make it an idea light without supplamentation. Simplicity is key for production.
For myself I am actually looking forward to playing with a LED build. I have been looking at some Ledengin 10 & 15w chips. I have always wanted to do a build with some real high power emitters but I have only built led flashlights before and they make too much heat to be stuffed in a flashlight body. I was thinking for an area light I could solder some copper blocks right to a .25" copper tube and mount the emitters on the copper blocks, Then run a small water cooled system like for a PC to keep the emitters supercooled. Probably would not be price efficient at all, but would be very cool to see some monster emitter in action. I have to figure out if their efficacy is any good first.
The 15w models have a form factor that would be very friendly to a build like I am thinking of However they are only avaliable in 628nm at this time. I think I would be better off using 660. I can get the 10W 660's on a star and could work with that but the 15w would come out much cleaner than emitters mounted on a star.
Before any of that though I need to get the lifi in a hood and figure out how much extra red I really need. Hopefully someone will be able to guide me a little before I actually get to ordering any of the LED supplies.

 

[crunkyeah]

I purchased one of the Luxim LIFI STA-40-02 units if anyone wants to see pictures just post and I'll see what I can do.

I haven't read much on this thread so I do apologize. When I received my light it came with a bunch of papers to describe the best way to build a unit around this light. It came with a warning that if exposed to the light for more than 15 minutes, irritation of eyes and skin may occur due to UV exposure. Said to use some kinda fancy glass to shield from UV. In my opinion the UV is what will make this unit produce more than any hps could. UV light triggers a response in buds and resin production occurs to protect seed pods from being burnt up by the sun. This is what we want

Also, just my unbiased opinion here; but this light does not need additional LED spectrum. But that's just my opinion. I say this because I have built my own high power cool white LED unit. Uses a bridgelux 4500lm LED and draws about 50w. This plasma light man..woah...when you fire this beast up it appears the LED is not even on and functioning, just because the sheer brightness of the plasma. I've got a bunch of those stupid 13w LED panels with 225 LEDs on each one, and the white LED compared to those is astonishing. This light puts out so much light, I don't think you'd ever need to supplement them unless you are using side lighting to increase yield.

Personally, because this bulb puts out light in about a 120 degree beam(totally unlike a hps/mh/cfl) this light should be used in a SCRoG or SoG fashion. Again, just opinion.

One problem I haven't been able to find my way around yet, is that the RF driver(which weighs a couple pounds by itself with heatsink) should be mounted AWAY from the actual emitter. I have seen the chameleon systems, and I'm not sure why they don't follow the mfg guidelines. Basically there are 3 components: Power Supply, Driver, and Emitter. The supply and driver should be mounted together, but the emitter needs to be by itself. At this point, I haven't begun using this light yet because of the heat needed to be dissipated and I don't have the space for the coverage this light puts out.

Needless to say, I will still take pictures of the unit and how bright it is if people want.
Just my $0.02.

P.S. I was not able to find the STA-41 unit either, only the STA-40-02.

P.P.S. @CanaHealer: I see you too, have seen the light in the LED world. Before you make the mistake in buying those bright LEDs I want to help ya out a bit.

The 660nm red that draws up to 1500mA and 2.1-2.5v(or close to) is the one you want. I believe it's the 5w emitter. LZ1-10R205 is the product number. At $9.90 vs $24.65 for the 10w version, you could get 3 times the coverage for about the same money. And then there's drivers; the higher watt emitter needs a higher current to operate. The higher the current the more cost is for the driver. In my opinion, 350mA is the best current to run LEDs at. Just because the heat is more easy to manage. You don't have to have water cooling unless your LEDs are being OVERdriven. I suggest UNDER driving LEDs for a few reasons: Less heat means more light for LEDs. Less heat means longer life for LEDs, need I say more?


I, too, once thought that the brighter the emitter the better. With LEDs this is simply NOT the case. With LEDs you have a good focused intense light. What everyone seems to forget is that with those small emitters and that focused light, you will lose LOTS of coverage, compared to the same wattage CFL/MH/HPS grow.

So more or less what you want, is a lot of LEDs scattered around your grow chamber(having lots and lots of leds close together is detrimental!!!!!!). Having side lighting with pure LEDs is ESSENTIAL. LEDs that aren't pure white do not have a good penetrating power. Because of this we need side lighting.

Sure you could do side lighting with the 10w LEDs, but the only problem we run into there is cost. For about 30 bucks for just 1 emitter(needing at least 10 for a 12" tall plant by my best guess) you can quickly see that costs immediately render the project unwise. However if you got say 10-20 of the lower watt emitters, you can more easily cover a big area. Another thing I'd light to point out, the bigger the emitter, the bigger the driver needed to drive it.
Example:
1 53w high power bridgelux LED = 1 $80 driver. Estimated coverage distance - 1.5' diameter circle(will show pics if desired).
10 1w Cree red LEDs = 1 $30 driver for 10 LEDs(depends on color and voltages mostly). Estimated coverage area, at least 1 sq ft. (can arrange multiple diodes easier to incorporate plant growth, making more efficient lighting)

If there's any questions anyone has I'd be plenty willing to help out and try and spread what I've learned.
Peace and love

 

[b0rab0ra]

Guys, what an amazing thread!!!!

Where can I get info on how to build plasma ighting??
All help is very much apreciated

 

[dxco]

This is a great thread -Thanks for posting!