Would A $1.50 Joint Bring Happiness To California?

[Hogdady]

Those power prices are not CA. as I know it is crazy expensive there. The cheapest power one can purchase is from an electric COOP.

Since we were talking about the cost of mj dropping dramatically in CALIFORNIA, the relevance of the cost of power in podunk escapes me...

One can use mulitap ballasts that can be wired to what ever level of voltage one needs, 120,208,220, 277,480 they usually are 3-4 different voltage tap models to choose. You can pop the cover on most magnetic ballast and see the unused other voltage wire taps. As most of them use the cheap ballast kit in that fancy case to sell for markup.

Changing voltage does almost NOTHING for the amount of kilowatthours used. A watt is a watt is a watt. Your energy provider charges you by the kwh.

Yes you would use a lot of juice but it's cheaper to buy 120 than a higher voltage of say 480, so you can save money.

As I have already said, you are charged by the kwh, not by the voltage. FYI 480 costs less to deliver, not more.

but since you can't relate I am not gonna spoon feed people who cannot grasp it much less utilize it.

With over 35 years in the power generation field, I'm reasonably confident that if it made sense I could grasp it...

The exchange of ideas is what helps make this site great I was merely trying to do just that, enjoy.

The exchange of ideas is great, as long as the bs is filtered out....

 

[stonewallred]

Common sense says that if 110V could turn a generator and produce more energy than it used, there would be talking about it and doing.
Plus there is a little idea in science that basically says you can't get something for nothing.

120 to 480, IIRC, would up the voltage and reduce the amps if done via a transformer.

Now solar power, wind and water are ways to get power for "free", but they are still a net loss of energy when you consider the entire system.
Right now, with us doing what we do for our grows, best we can do is minimize our power usage. Of course, if we could do the grow legally, we could save bunches of money with power consumption.
Instead of using portable window units to cool a garden, which is akin in energy efficiency to boiling a 5 gallon pot of water using matches, we could have the local HVAC/R contractor install a high efficiency geo-thermal unit.
Or instead of having to use so much power growing just a small garden because of the lights, you could grow very big ones using the lights on movers with supplemental solar light too.

But RAH said it best, "TANSTAAFL"

 

[Hogdady]

Common sense says that if 110V could turn a generator and produce more energy than it used, there would be talking about it and doing.

It's called perpetual motion...doesn't exist.

Plus there is a little idea in science that basically says you can't get something for nothing.

Entropy...every conversion of energy costs energy

Now solar power, wind and water are ways to get power for "free", but they are still a net loss of energy when you consider the entire system.

Not to mention the staggering cost of equipment...

Right now, with us doing what we do for our grows, best we can do is minimize our power usage.

 

[SnowBender]

under 40$ an oz indoors is not possible in a legal grow. To be truly legal you would need to account for;
OSHA safety rules.
Electrical code.
Fire inspection.
Telling your home insurance policy and your bank (if you have a loan or landlord if you dont) that you grow weed.
Earthquake readiness, including auto shutoff for gas and water.
Security. Hired and or mechanical. (or dog food and vets bills)
Cost of equipment including bulb replacements.
Rent or mortgage.

the list goes on and on.


For instance my water bill is over 150$ /month alone.

Before I had ever grown any weed, a friend of mine in Humboldt whos been growing for 25+ years told me he figures on average, he makes ~9$/hr as a pot farmer.
I use to laugh at that number, now that ive been though a few grows, im starting not to doubt his words. Growers are notoriously bad at admitting how much time and money they really commit to growing a weed. Most never even figure in any failures to their bottom line.

 

[stonewallred]

Sorry, your numbers are wrong.
Give me the ability to grow pot legal and sell it at 38 bucks an ounce, and I'll be a millionaire within 3 years.
A light industrial warehouse, 10 employees, growing in hydro, could easily produce 250 plants a week for harvest. With light industrial running around .45 to.65 cents a square foot in most of CA, space would be less 4k a month if you figured 1k plants at 5 square feet per plant.
10 people can easily handle 1000 plants in hydro, and harvest 250 of them a week in a perpetual grow process.
Be free with your money and hire 5 more to tend the clones.
Pay them all 1k a week.
Hell pay the electrical company 20k a month for power.
You'll still turn a good profit at 38 bucks an ounce.

If you could not harvest 250 plants a week with 10 employees to do the harvest and take care of the plants, in a perpetual grow system, something is wrong. And if you could not turn a profit bringing in 95k gross every week, with 15 employees and warehouse space, you ain't got a lick of business sense.

And security? No more than an alarm and good locks and doors. Legal, remember? Cops are available and marijuana is a bulky product to be stealing out of hydro grows or even when it is curing. And if the price was 38 bucks an ounce, who would steal it? Not enough reward for the risk. Since unlike today where pot is worth a bunch, and their is no recourse through the courts, in a legalized set up, the cops would be tracking down the thieves and the DAs would be locking their asses up.
Hell cops could only eat so many donuts and with no pot smokers to arrest, they'd have plenty of time.

 

[SnowBender]

Security would mostly be for the grow equipment. but 250 plants x a meager 4 oz per plant is still 38,000$ worth of weed on hand every week. and given that people get murdered for a checkbook and 20$ (or less), id say your grow would be considered a rather large public nuisance in the eyes of LEO..
Dont forget about the workman's comp, payroll taxes, health care and maternity leave. (and donations to the policeman's and fireman's fund if you want them to come when you get robbed or catch fire.)

20k in power to pull 1000 pants a month? that should cover the cooling, hydro pumps and nutes, now you just gotta figure out how to run the lights.
If the EPA ever caught you putting nutes or pesticides in the gutter or sewer, yikes!
Have you ever spent 6 or more hours hanging freshly cut branches to dry? I know I am utterly useless for at least a day or tow after such a job. it feels way worse than the most evil hang over you've ever had.

-Given that Id be calling in sick, with a harvest hangover every week, I guess a job is outta the question?

 

[MedicalNeed]

I know power is skyhigh there in CA. is it cheaper way up north? Just curious.

I have seen a link where some fella's in Aussie land were claiming to have in fact made a working perpetual type of fuel system, I think it was anyways it was some time back.



stonewallred
I too was looking at warehouse space for lease in CA. I don't live in CA at the moment though I would like to have a "Part Time" spot.

Just as a curiosity too look at what and how things might progress if the law passes in Nov. and I was surprised at how relatively reasonable they were. Being a gearhead wrench I would simply live on site most likely or in a travel trailer parked indoor or etc.

If each person is a part owner of the company then you don't have to have workman's comp. so that would be the route to take.

 

[SnowBender]

people are closing down grows nearly the size you guys are talking about (in commercial space with lower power rates,but with little or none of the legit costs) cause they cant make it work now that prices are below 140$ wholesale...and you think you can do the same with more costs and 38$ retail oz?

I definitely want some of what you're smoking.

 

[stonewallred]

You obviously have no experience in cooling, nor in how much energy a pumping system uses. As a good example here is a house I did the HVAC on as a contractor for the builder.
Richard Childress' House (Google Maps) - Virtual Globetrotting
It has 3 400 amp panel boxes in the mechanical room. The HVAC/R cost for this house is guaranteed by the builder to be less than 500 dollars a month. (actually he guarantees the KW usage, since prices do fluctuate, but at the time of building it was less than 500 bucks)
Cooling costs are negligible. And excuse me, 10 1000 watt HPS lights ran at 24/7 at 9 cents a Kw hour would come to a whopping 6.9k a month for lighting.
workers comp, matching FICA etc on a 1k w week salary is about 500 bucks.

So we got 15 employees @1.5k a week (figuring in all associated charges)22k a week, a 7k light bill, figure another 13k for the rest of the electrical. and figure each plant in a legal hydro grow would bring in 10 ounces. Now for sake of being a slight ass about this, we are going to throw in an imaginary tax of 30k a month to run a grow. So with that 30k tax a month we have a grand total of 110k +30k, 140k a month in fixed expenses for electrical, rent labor and a tax.

Even at your idea of 4 ounces per plant we still turn a profit. (152k-140k=15k)
At 10 ounces per plant, 280k-140k= 140k a month.

Anywhoo, I am here to pick up ideas about growing pot, not to teach a remedial basic business planning class. In the future, utilize google and learn a little bit about cost over scale and the cost of labor, utilities and estimating.

Or go to your local community college and take a few basic business classes.

 

[stonewallred]

people are closing down grows nearly the size you guys are talking about (in commercial space with lower power rates,but with little or none of the legit costs) cause they cant make it work now that prices are below 140$ wholesale...and you think you can do the same with more costs and 38$ retail oz?

I definitely want some of what you're smoking.

Lol, right. Dude math is your friend. Basic math says 250 plants@10 ounces per plant harvested a week at 38 bucks an ounce is 95,000 a week in gross sales.
I kept a shop open, with metal working equipment, 5 techs and 4 installers(7 vans for them, one for myself), a receptionist and myself on a lot less than 95k a week.

If you can't see running a business with 15 employees with no real material costs, with a yearly income of 4.9 million dollars and turning a profit, then I suggest you put the pot down because you have fried your brains.

And I don't believe for a second growers who can turn out 350k a week are shutting down because they are losing money. (your example would generate 350k a week at 250 plants at 10 ounces)

 

[SnowBender]

I'm just basing it off what I see and hear around here. There are lots of other counties/cities with different power and Sq footage rates and with vastly different environmental and zoning restrictions.

The 4 oz was just for sake of simple math. some of the guys that are calling it quits were getting more than twice that and still couldn't make it work. and no they weren't pulling anything near 250 plant per week, just using commercial rent/power with cash paid employee's. Couldn't tell you what their gross was, but obviously the net was enough to keep it running...

All this speculation is silly unless you can put a cost on the threat of doing federal time. My guess is thats why some of these guys around here got out of it, even if they were legal in the county, they weren't legal in the USA.

Will a college class teach me to understand the difference in retail pricing and wholesale or producer pricing?

I thought the "$38" was the post prop 19 passage retail price. and thus would not be what a producer/wholesaler (you) would earn.

I wish you the best of luck, and if it works out, I thank you in advance for the potential state tax revenue. The roads need some serious patching!

-Cant wait for the journal!

 

[Lemon Paradise]

interesting conversation all the way around,, too many posts to quote,, I geuss the part that has me scratching my head is....
10oz a plant??? wow,, maybe it's cause I am such a newbie,, but 10oz a plant??? holy smokes, I would be in heaven if I could get that...

 

[stonewallred]

Figure if you are growing under 1000 watt lights, in hydro, probably supplemented with sunlight, full nutrients and no space or secrecy considerations. And if you are in a perpetual grow, giving the clones between 4-8 weeks to veg, 10 ounces per plant seems very reasonable.
Would be about .25grams per watt.
Some of the more experienced hydro growers could say if it is reasonable or not, but the reading I have done makes the case for it.

 

[bigjake]

I know power is skyhigh there in CA. is it cheaper way up north? Just curious.

I have seen a link where some fella's in Aussie land were claiming to have in fact made a working perpetual type of fuel system, I think it was anyways it was some time back.



stonewallred
I too was looking at warehouse space for lease in CA. I don't live in CA at the moment though I would like to have a "Part Time" spot.

Just as a curiosity too look at what and how things might progress if the law passes in Nov. and I was surprised at how relatively reasonable they were. Being a gearhead wrench I would simply live on site most likely or in a travel trailer parked indoor or etc.

If each person is a part owner of the company then you don't have to have workman's comp. so that would be the route to take.

As for the above statement not trying to be ass but i have had my own bus for years.A corp of any kind everyone pays workmans comp you are a employ
of the corp.now a prop or llc you dont have to but what about the taxes you
have to pay .Im just sayin it would never work like that people get mad at who gets what and when you are all even one person could do nothing and
get as much as a guy who worked his ass off,Let a profit be made and see
how buddys turn to business men.Would ypu pay taxes on another persons
money.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Figure if you are growing under 1000 watt lights, in hydro, probably supplemented with sunlight, full nutrients and no space or secrecy considerations. And if you are in a perpetual grow, giving the clones between 4-8 weeks to veg, 10 ounces per plant seems very reasonable.
Would be about .25grams per watt.
Some of the more experienced hydro growers could say if it is reasonable or not, but the reading I have done makes the case for it.

You're figuring on one 1kW light per plant, then?

Yes, 10 ounces per plant is doable. And .25 GPW is easily doable.

Easier in small personal grows, it seems. The big commercial grows that I've seen appeared to be horribly inefficient. But then again, I saw them because they were busted and reported on sites such as this one. So I cannot say that they are truly examples of their breed.

I'm questioning most of the maths that I see in this thread (on both sides). I admit that I have no basis for this, or alternate maths to propose. It's just a feeling.

 

[stonewallred]

Eh, estimating with little real data is a pain.
If you are growing 1000 plants under 10 1000watt lights, on a mover system, keeping them on 12/12, then 10 lights per 500 would be the number.

If it was me, I'd have the plants getting sunlight(through skylights) and HPS with 8' HO fluorescents running down the rows to give side light to the lower parts of the plant.

Plus we are looking at just bud yield.
Wonder how much straight bubble hash could be extracted from 250 plants a week, not to mention solvent based extraction after you get the hash from the surface.

I know when estimating for jobs in my line of work, I have 3 data points for labor, best, average and poor. Come about when the industry started switching from time plus materials to fixed pricing.

If the whole thing was made legal, then within a year or two, the process would be shaken down, refined and it would be just as much as a standardized industry as farming corn, without the vagaries of weather.

Problem now is that everything has to be done in secrecy, and many times stealth takes priority of best method. Toss in the fact that most large grows are straight commercial, where the main idea is get it grown and get it gone, rather than maximizing yield and quality, and where the majority of the profits are siphoned off instead of reinvested in better equipment and techniques.

Take the production of the BHO. One of the most inefficient and wasteful ways to do it.
Dumping your solvent after one extraction? Lol, in a legal world, where you could recoup the investment, a spark free reclaim machine, which isolates the compressor and oil from the butane, a 125 pound tank of butane would last for a long, long time. Pot into chamber, pull a vacuum, flood with butane, pump butane back out to a vacuum and then you have your BHO and still have your butane to use in the next batch. (there is a guy who had a basic set up like that somewhere, but he was not pulling a vacuum prior to butane, and was using a regular reclaim machine. So he was getting refrigerant oil from the reclaim on /in the BHO, plus pumping a volatile and highly flammable butane and compressed air mixture over an electric motor which could spark at any time. And that would be a bad thing)

This has been an interesting conversation and intellectual exercise though.

 

[stonewallred]

Now that I am feeling a little better, let's think about a few other things.
The RAND study shot a number out there of 38 bucks an ounce.
Is that an ounce of mexibrick? Good stuff? Mid-grade?
Plus with legalization comes all the ancillary businesses to feed the growers. I am sure every Tom, Dick and Harry are not going to be growing the same strain nor to the same quality.
They'll be people doing organic and hydro and soil. The folks growing the indicas and the folks growing the savitias. The hybrid growers.
Then there will be boutique growers, who sacrifice quantity for high quality. And surely there will be ones who grow strictly to make old style hash, made the old ways, and those who grow to make bubble hash or solvent extracted hash.

I think if it was legalized and left alone by the feds we would see more tax money than folks think we will. Maybe there will be an underground market, but the growers will be spending money on supplies, seeds, clones, equipment and the other base stuff that will be taxed.

One thing no one has mentioned is what happens when the bright white coated guys get into the mix? Think of a marijuana plant crossed with some of the plants which have psychoactive compounds of their own. Gene splicing, it ain't just for your corn.

People like variety. Go to your local liquor store or grocery store and take a good look at the shelves, stack with 20 or 30 different brands and styles of brandy or cereal. Pot would be no different. There would be a variety, much more than there is today. Lol, say what you want about the dutch folks, but America puts them to shame when it comes to marketing a product and filling the various niches.

And the different types and varieties would cost more or less, according to market forces. Just as they do today. Except in a legal setting the number of varieties would be staggering.

Just my thoughts, YMMV.

 

[Hogdady]

If you are growing 1000 plants under 10 1000watt lights, on a mover system, keeping them on 12/12, then 10 lights per 500 would be the number.

So is it 50 or 100 plants per light?

Either way, that's not enough light.

And excuse me, 10 1000 watt HPS lights ran at 24/7 at 9 cents a Kw hour would come to a whopping 6.9k a month for lighting.

Where are you going to pay 9 cents a kwh? Not in California! The avg commercial cost per kwh is 12.2 cents.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pissin' down your pipe, I just think you should use accurate numbers when you make these statements....

 

[TorturedSoul]

In the 1000 plants under 10 lights example, that would be 100 plants per light.

I also thought the listed cost per kWh was pretty low. But I also figured that most grows wouldn't be running their flowering lights 24/7.

 

[stonewallred]

Eh, estimates are estimates, plus I calculated a total electrical cost of $20,000.00 a month. That is plenty enough money to provide light to 1000 plants in flower.

As far as 'enough" light, how many plants will a 1000 watt light handle in a hydro grow?