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Thread: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

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    420 Member BushyBro's Avatar
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    Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    I have just recently purchased a few LED's and through my research I stumbled across "The Flower Initiator"

    Here is what it does..

    Triggers the Phytochrome Pfr/Pr state to switch in mere seconds, certainly over 5-10 minutes rather than the normal two hours, this should provide for a more rapid Flower and Fruit initiation, with accelerated development.

    And you only run this light for 5-7 minutes before dark!?

    So firstly has anyone got this?
    Secondly are there any lights out there other than this one offering the Far red 730nm?
    I feel that if this was made as a toggled feature on all LED panels , isnt that we are looking for.. a panel that does it all?

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    Re: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    730nm far red has some very unique aspects as to how these photo-receptors work. First, it can be used as part of the Emerson Effect. Secondly, the sole photo-receptor of chlorophyll F peaks very near this range (722 if i remember the article correct) and was only discovered a couple of years ago (2010).

    As for the claim that it causes the Pfr to Pr switch to happen in seconds vise 2 hours... I'm not so sure about that. I find it very hard to believe. Far red and IR occur in nature. Adding additional lighting in that spectra will not cause it to do anything new, simply add the amount that occurs. The Pfr intake is what causes plants to stretch because they think they are being blocked out by near by plants. The claim of Pfr to Pr happening is seconds is correct. But I believe if they did actual studies they would see that the photo-chemical changes would still be active after the "5-10 minutes". There are a large number of studies on the Pfr to Pr and back to Pfr chemical transformation. FYI, 630nm red light is first transferred to Pfr before any other process of photosynthesis occurs.

    For your second question, yes there are a few companies out there using far reds and near IR. According to their site, Advanced LED uses 720 and 740 (which is probably just a 730 that hits both).

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    New Member Kannabiz's Avatar
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    Re: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    Sorry for side tracking a little,

    Hosebomber, assuming LED 1 & 2 are both drawing the same wattage, which spectrum will be better? LED 1 that has more Far Red or?

    LED 1
    2x 380nm
    2x 415nm
    4x 440nm
    4x 460nm
    4x 530nm
    4x 610nm
    8x 630nm
    16x 660nm
    2x 730nm
    2x 740nm
    2x 760nm

    LED 2
    1x 380nm
    2x 415nm
    6x 440nm
    6x 460nm
    2x 530nm
    4x 610nm
    4x 630nm
    22x 660nm
    1x 730nm
    1x 740nm
    1x 760nm

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    Re: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    Sorry for the long delay in reply, I just bought a new house and have been moving. I personally would modify both of those a bit. I believe you get more benefit from using warm and neutral white lights than all of the filler leds. 760 is a bit high on the Far Red/IR end to be very useful and a spread of the red to deep red is better than a large amount of one or the other. As a general answer to your question. #1 would be better.

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    420 Member BushyBro's Avatar
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    Re: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    Thanks for the replys everyone, its becoming an interesting read, i am still struggling with this 730nm initiation during flowering, here is another reason why..
    This is the LED'S Contained within my X3 Unit..
    Red 660nm 40pcs
    Red 640nm 16pcs
    Blue 470nm 8pcs
    Blue 440nm 8pcs
    IR 740nm 8pcs < Its this one that is causing the confusion for me?? Does this one cover 730?
    Does that mean my plants will be tricked into thinking there is a 1 hour difference from the start?
    Sorry for the daft questions, led research is confusing the bejeezus outta me!?

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    Re: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    Yes, LED's generally produce 80% of their max output in the peak (740nm in this case) within +or - 10 nm to either side. This means that a 740nm far red led will cover 730-750 with at least 80% power distribution within that range.

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    New Member Kannabiz's Avatar
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    Re: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    Thank you Hosebomber for the time in replying, I'll be customizing the LEDs according to your advise.

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    420 Member BushyBro's Avatar
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    Re: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    Quick question Kannabiz, are you customising them yourself or getting them the supplier to alter them?

    If your doing them yourself can you post some info on a "how to do?"

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    Re: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    I'm getting a supplier to customise the lights for me

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    420 Member BushyBro's Avatar
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    Re: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    Hey man did you get your lights? have you started a grow with them yet?

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    Re: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    Here's the better choise.

    LED 3

    80% 660nm (hits higher level peak in chlorophyll-a)
    10% 470nm (hits higher level peak in chlorophyll-b)
    10% whites (responsible of the other wavelengths)

    AFAIK there's no point to add 730nm in to same light as other bandwidths because they need different light cycle as other wavelengths.
    It works as flower initiator and those should be lit just few minutes before lights go out and continue 10-30 minutes in otherwise dark grow room.
    All those separate different bandwidths are waste of time, energy & money because other than highest peaks in both chlorophyll curves are needed only so small amounts that all wavelengths are taken care with just a few white LED's. And IMHO there is no need to cover both peaks in each curve, so it is better to choose higher peak from both curves and fill the blanks with that white.

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    Re: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    Sorry savolainen, you're about 5 years behind the research curve. Those ratios where tried and they performed poorly. There are some many other chemicals and photo-receptors involved in the growth and production of a plant, that covering a small amount of chlorophyll a and b will not do the job. Neither will a 10% portion of the total lighting in white. If you do your research and look at any company that has been in business more that a year or two, you will see that all of them have went to a multi spectra grow light. There is a reason for this, it works better.
    Icemud likes this.

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    Lightbulb Re: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosebomber View Post
    Sorry savolainen, you're about 5 years behind the research curve. Those ratios where tried and they performed poorly. There are some many other chemicals and photo-receptors involved in the growth and production of a plant, that covering a small amount of chlorophyll a and b will not do the job. Neither will a 10% portion of the total lighting in white. If you do your research and look at any company that has been in business more that a year or two, you will see that all of them have went to a multi spectra grow light. There is a reason for this, it works better.
    Still, I am not fully convinced. At least I am not stuck 5 years behind because of old habits, like many growers out there, as I started to grow cannabis last year. :D
    It is possible that because web is full of info and very much of it is old, those have influenced me more than the most recent studies.

    I spent huge hours studying this topic last summer by reading forums, articles etc. So I have read much about this topics and I have seen development of peoples opinions and techniques in the industry. I had to do it to be able to build my own lights.
    One thing I found out was that there is still huge amount of old growers who swear in the name of HPS etc. and are against everything new which is just annoying.

    What comes to manufacturers competition with amount of bandwidhts, IMHO those are just advertising gimmicks.. "more you have bandwidths the better" etc. while simple solution works better.

    Of course it gives better results if you have all possible wavelengths in LED light if there is no limit how big the light is.
    But if limit is let's say 100W I would take a bet that 8|1|1 works better than 2|2|1|1|1|1|1|1 or similar -at least in flowering because amount of 660nm is so much bigger.
    If instead emphasis is on vegetative growing, I'd change it to 3|4|3 (660nm|470nm|white) or so.

    I know what you are about to say; reading won't do the trick. Growing results will tell the truth, eventually. But I don't have interest to create 8-band light for one grow room and 8|1|1 in the other to just compare. Actually I have all my lights buzy that I've found (and I can afford) at the moment, and there is many bandwidths included.

    But if you know it better (I have read this forum too and I know that you are very familiar about the topic) I'd like to ask couple questions that are still unclear to me. I am not trying to argue in the sake of my big ego, and I can be corrected if I find out that I am wrong.

    -What exactly are the benefits of orange light and how much it is needed? I have couple 10W 610nm LED's in one of the light that I have made. (Other colors in that light are 20W 620-630nm LED and 30 x 3W 660nm LED's. I think it serves best as "flowering booster".
    Still, I think that that 620-630nm LED is worse than 660nm because it doesn't fit the peaks in chlorophyll curves.
    )

    -What are the other curves that we do need to know?
    -How about carotenoids? Just searched info about it again and saw one mentioning that they absorb blue colors.

    In the end, I'd use just two bandwidht in LED lights, 470nm and 660nm. Then I would supplement it with couple other types of lights like reptiglo lizard light to give UV-b and white.
    That's how I grow at the moment, using combination of LED's and CFL's. I even have small 100w HPS in one setup, just because it is winter and extra heat is not wasted energy.

    -What is the role of of warmth in the leafs? Some have talked about it and I got an impression that it is good to have heat in the upper leafs so that plant is more capable to lift nutrients and water up more efficiently. They said that LED's won't work on that. Does that have any affect if whole grow room is warm enough anyways? Do those leafs need some extra warmth that HPS etc. oldschool lights produce?

    -What comes to replacing many different bandwidths with just white LED's, the idea was that white light contains all lights in spectrum, but AFAIK it is not quite true. There is differences in cool and warm white so it would be necessary to add both whites to get slightly better results.
    But why to add white LED's if there is still need to add extra CFL's because of UV-b? Maybe the amount of white is the key. If using 10.0 UV-b CFL, it gives too much UV-b if it is used whole light cycle. Then it might be good idea to use smaller UV-b radiation lamps like 5.0 or so.
    Or if the goal is to use as much LED's as possible, then it might be needed to increase amount of whites from that 10% I mentioned in my 8|1|1 ratio. Maybe 7|1|2 where half of the white LED's would be warm and other half cold.

    This interests me in theory, it is good to know things as thoroughly as possible but in the end, I just add all lights I can get.
    I often create separate lights for different colors so that I have LED lights that are plain blue, red or white etc.. it makes whole color balance more flexible as I can move different colors between grow rooms, depending in which phase plants are. Veg room has majority of 470nm blue's and then there is UV-a (AFAIK it does not have any benefits over blue, it just is less efficient) white CFL and 660nm (just because).
    Making lot's of small separate lights is also good if wanting to avoid using cooling fans. All my lights have passive coolers and because of that they are completely silent.

    Guy behind http://www.led4growth.com/ said last summer that he prefers nowadays lights that has only red and white LED's.

    Sorry about long post and bad english.

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    Re: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    That's a lot of questions. Lets start with the easy ones.

    Yes, having more wavelengths covered does produce better growth. Both from a study standpoint and personal testing. There are a large number of photo receptors in plants. Many of them directly assist in the production of and use of Chlorophyll.
    Phycocyanin is one of those and uses the orange wavelength you was referring to before. The following is a good primer on other photo receptors.
    This is a Yale study that is pretty good as well.

    As for the comments on white light. They all "should" contain full spectra. However, the amount of photons produced in each wavelength, or the relative power distribution is what changes between cool, neutral, and warm white LEDs.

    As for your blues. You would cover many more receptors with a 440nm blue than a 470.

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    Re: Far Red Spectrum 730nm?

    Quote Originally Posted by BushyBro View Post
    I have just recently purchased a few LED's and through my research I stumbled across "The Flower Initiator"

    Here is what it does..

    Triggers the Phytochrome Pfr/Pr state to switch in mere seconds, certainly over 5-10 minutes rather than the normal two hours, this should provide for a more rapid Flower and Fruit initiation, with accelerated development.

    And you only run this light for 5-7 minutes before dark!?

    So firstly has anyone got this?
    Secondly are there any lights out there other than this one offering the Far red 730nm?
    I feel that if this was made as a toggled feature on all LED panels , isnt that we are looking for.. a panel that does it all?
    the far red spectrum is usually only beneficial when use with red for the emmerson effect. for phytochrome manipulation u want something in the 750-800nm range allthough im sure 730nm may do, it is more visible to plants and may decrease the amount of manipulation that can be done. with 750 nm 15 minutes before lights out and left on 15 minutes after lights out with the same being done before lights go back on this will allow you to flower with up to 16 hours of light a day with a sativa dom and 14-15 hours of light with an indica dom. if using 800 nm u may want minimize the amount of time it is left on incase of stretch but usually aint a problem. 800nm flood lights can sometimes be found on ebay or amazon they are used for infrared sensors aand cameras u may find a 750 nm one but most are above 800 nm

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