Breeding traits?

[Bertie]

Hi all,

This wont be happening anytime soon for me, but would like to know for when the time comes.

Does a male contribute certain traits and a female others?

For example, in race horses, the male will have more significance over the speed/stamina of the foals. While the mare will exhibit certain preferences for underfoot conditions in the progeny.

Does something similar happen when producing F1 hybrids with weed? After inbreeding two different strains for 6 generations (I believe 8 is the max?), would I use a male for vigor/flower period, and the female for color/potency?

Is it just a random thing, or do certain traits tend to stem from the sex of the parent?

Cheers
Bertie

 

[Twelve12]

Good questions. I also would like to know.

 

[CocoJoe]

I have made some seeds in the past.
The male must be a winner.
It can add potency and taste, aswell as effect the structure of the offspring.

The best male I ever used was trichome covered.
All the seeds produced by him made me smile!
Finding a good male is a job. Pick a strain to use and make a pant-load of F2s.
Start growing them and take clones, so when you find your male you'll have a copy to make your pollen.

While your searching for a male stud don't forget about watching for hotties to keep as moms.
MILS ,mothers I'd like to smoke.

cocoJoe

 

[Bertie]

Thanks CJ. Could I ask the same question in the extreme.

I have two inbred strains, and by the 7th generation they are almost totally uniform, both male and female from both lines.

Lets say a poor yielding, blow your tits off, astral projection, sativa landrace.

I also have a short, stocky, resin covered, heavy yielding pure Indica that knocks you out.

What do you think the Sativa male x Indica female would be like?

What do you think the Indica male x Sativa female would be like?

I see what you're saying regarding picking out a good male, but to get a high level of uniformity, would I not have to inbreed the males along the way also? Therefore having to select a new male from each generation. I understand it, that I would lose vigour with each generation, but that would hopefully be restored in the resulting F1 hybrid, eventually.

However, my main interest is what would happen with a pure sativa female x pure indica male, and vice versa. I'm sure there must be certain traits that are exhibited by one of the sexes more than the other. It seems to be that way with animals, so I dont see why plants would be any different. maybe they are, I don't know.

 

[Wild Heart]

When crossing pure indica and sativa the resulting seeds from the first cross will express many diffrent variations.

 

[Twelve12]

Google DJ Short breeding article. Can't post link here but you can find it in search he talk in depth on breeding and what to look for, etc...it's too much to grasp for me at the moment, taking small reading at a time.

 

[Bertie]

Thanks Twelve12, I'll look at that once I've had a bite to eat.

Acideye, are you sure about that? I was always led to believe that was the way to get a stable F1 hybrid.

It suggests so in this link. F1 hybrid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know F2 seeds will produce all sorts of phenotypes, but a pure F1 is surely stable. Take a beef tomato for example, you know you're going to get beef tomatoes from every seed in the packet (or at least most seeds). They're F1 hybrids, who's parents have been inbred and then crossed to each other.

Thats why I'm not too sure about these feminised seeds. In most reports it says there are so many phenotypes possible. A true F1 strain would produce identical plants, or at least very uniform indeed.

Thats why I was interested in the males/females influences on each other from diverse ancestral backgrounds. It would highlight it the most, if there are certain traits passed on depending on the sex of the parent.

I don't know why I'm asking really, as I'm miles off doing it, and probably wont ever bother. I do find it interesting though, so maybe one day. Maybe with something other than MJ, who knows.

 

[CocoJoe]

Thanks CJ. Could I ask the same question in the extreme.

I have two inbred strains, and by the 7th generation they are almost totally uniform, both male and female from both lines.

Lets say a poor yielding, blow your tits off, astral projection, sativa landrace.

I also have a short, stocky, resin covered, heavy yielding pure Indica that knocks you out.

What do you think the Sativa male x Indica female would be like?

What do you think the Indica male x Sativa female would be like?

I see what you're saying regarding picking out a good male, but to get a high level of uniformity, would I not have to inbreed the males along the way also? Therefore having to select a new male from each generation. I understand it, that I would lose vigour with each generation, but that would hopefully be restored in the resulting F1 hybrid, eventually.

However, my main interest is what would happen with a pure sativa female x pure indica male, and vice versa. I'm sure there must be certain traits that are exhibited by one of the sexes more than the other. It seems to be that way with animals, so I dont see why plants would be any different. maybe they are, I don't know.

Hi,
I would cross your two IBLs.
I would go indica X sativa, sativa X indica.
Grow some of both crossing to see which turned out more to your liking.
Save the two parents for a possible BXing project.

Yes future offspring (male or female) can be used to continue your project.
The crossed seeds should give you a lot of variation to select from.
If you go no farther you will atleast have found some great clone only strains in your seeds.

If you start a BXing project, expect it to take some time, but if your two IBLs are as good as you say, the rewards should be great and it will be YOUR OWN strain of seeds.

DJ Short has done some very nice work and is considered one of the top breeders. He is known for selecting outstanding males. He has also made some mistakes, but let us forgive him.

Much luck and success to your project.

cocoJoe

 

[Bertie]

Thanks CJ.

When you say to save the two parents for back crossing. I would have stored loads of seeds from both F7 generations, so they'd be there anytime I wanted them, ready to make more F1 hybrid seed, or to cross something else in.

I know I could go and start reading up, but it's certain elements I'm wanting to double check, so I hope you don't mind me asking questions. Its just to make sure I understand myself. I have read about squaring and cubing, but I'm getting my head around it by thinking in terms of field selection throughout. Which is the way I'll probably go, even if it is longer.

So if I have these 2 IBL down to F7's and they all look like clones in their respective strains due to being so uniform.
Lets say I'm over the moon with one of the F7's, say the Indica, not too much couch lock, deep rich hash tasting, it just couldn't be better and had everything I was looking for from that side.

However, the Sativa just lacks a little something. Maybe I had to sacrifice a bit of vigour and fruity taste, to get the high I wanted.

How would I go about resolving this?

I was thinking that I would inbreed some Sativa looking solely for vigour and taste. Then when I get to the F7, I would cross it with my original F7 sativa, hoping to blend those traits together.

I would then have a new Sativa hybrid, while the original F7 Indica is just sat on the back boiler.

I then take this new Sativa hybrid, and inbreed that trying to keep all the traits (vigour, taste and high) together down to the F7, and finally make the cross to the F7 Indica that's been put on hold.

Would that be the way, or would it be better to make the sativa/indica hybrid and then go looking for something else to stick into the mix? I feel I may have the problem of sacrificing something out of the Indica that way around though.

Or, is that that when I notice I'm losing a bit of taste and vigour in the original Sativa IBL (say F4), I simply toss something into the mix to try and get it back, then start inbreeding again.

This is the last question, promise.

===========================

I suppose, in a nutshell, the question is......

Is it best when looking for traits to always start inbreeding with a stable F1 hybrid, or do you just toss a load of phenotypes together and start inbreeding from any old F2 that takes your fancy?

 

[Twelve12]

Once you cross your favorite male + female to get F1 variations, then later come stabilization. Found a post which talks more about how to go about in stabilizing a clone hybrid.

 

[Smoke2Js]

I think we need a pollen bank, that would be awesome.

 

[Bertie]

If the pollen was from inbred stable males, it would be pretty neat, Smoke2J's. I guess it would just need to be vacuum packed, though not sure about temps with pollen. I'm not really sure about much in this department.

Twelve12, thats whats confusing me. As I said earlier, if I bought a packet of F1 seeds for tomatoes, or anything, they should all look alike. I wont have 4 different phenotypes sprouting. Say 1 tall with cherry tomatoes, another small with beef tomatoes etc etc.

What is going on with weed? Every time I read about people paying for seeds from these breeders, there are usually 4 (sometimes more) different phenotypes displayed. I have looked at just about every strain on Attitude, read grow reports on them, as well as the breeders description, and I only recall one or two saying they were very stable, and all plants looked alike.

Are they just deciding to go down to the F5 generation and leave plenty of traits hidden in there, then crossing it with another F5 and thinking "that'll do"?

I read and read it, but I get nowhere. I do know that it's done with other plants, and just about all commercial seeds, but not weed it seems. I feel that if you buy regular commercial hybrid weed seed, then it should do what it says on the pack. I can't see why you have to grow things out to find something thats close to what it says.

I've looked at the link (thanks for posting/finding it), and will try (over time) to understand what its meaning. It looks like a shortcut to what I was talking about. Haven't got a clue to be honest, and after looking at it for 5 minutes, I feel like I've just had a lobotomy. I'll go back to it once my head is a little clearer.

 

[CocoJoe]

Bertie, all breeders are only as good as the genetics they use.

Some seed banks are superior, so buyer beware.

In-breeding a strain can cause the loss of vigour in the strain.

cocoJoe

 

[TorturedSoul]

You get fairly stable F1s if the parent stock are both homozygous. But you'll find that is often not the case with seedbank seeds. Crosses of "hybrids of hybrids" with other "hybrids of hybrids" are common. A glance at one seedbank reports Bubblegum as Serious Seeds' only inbred/non-hybrid strain, Reeferman Seeds' Nepalese Highland as being a pure IBL, et cetera. But most are hybrids to one degree or other. Landraces are generally pretty stable and good parent choices.

If you've got 10th-generation true-breeding stock, you should see decent uniformity in the F1-generation.