Organic?

Well one of the things about nitrogen is that it's one of the few molecular nutrients we have that's very much influenced by the atmosphere. Nitrogen is a gas, so it doesn't last very long in the soil, and in a natural and organic environment, the supply of nitrogen in the soil relies on a type of biological system that requires a symbiotic relationship between many sets of organisms from micro-organisms to macro. The SOM has to come from somewhere. ...or something... or someone.

So the thing with synthetically available nitrogen is that if you bring plant to a inhospitable environment where the regular nitrogen fixation cycle can't happen, then you can feed the plant the synthetic form of nitrogen and grow it in places where you'd never dream of it being possible. On top of that, because of the immediate availability of the synthetic nutrient, the plants grow big and tall and yield a ton. If it wasn't for synthetically available nitrogen, a lot of farmland in the U.S. and around the globe, would be nothing but barren wasteland.

Frankly, there are realities we have to face, and documented failures of organics and synthetics, and if you want a case study, look at North Korea. For years the government supplied synthetic fertilizers for people to grow their food in land that was basically unsuitable for agriculture, and then when the government stopped supplying these fertilizers, that already inhospitable land was simply ravaged that much more. Now the North Koreans rely on "night soil" (human feces) because even their livestock are too sickly to properly maintain the symbiotic relationship of the land.

It's a situation that is very complex and goes beyond horticulture. What you have is a society that went beyond sustainability, and then when it lost that element ( in this case very literally, since we're talking synthetic nitrogen ) it crumbled upon itself. Once you create a system that relies on an unsustainable component, other components of that system that relied on those aforementioned components in a larger system gradually breakdown as well. So now the system doesn't work, the land is barren, they have no more synthetic fertilizers, but on top of that they've made the very ecosystem so inhospitable for life that it will take many years for it to recover. There has to be life to sustain life.

However, given that situation, can't there also be room for a "jump start" so to speak? When you've destroyed your ecosystem's ability to regulate itself, and must wait years for it to regenerate, that's when you have to rely on things like "night soil". There's no large mammals to make manure, or "soil organic matter", so where do you get it from? From people. And in that situation, there's not much time for composting; it goes into the soil as fresh as it is created, if you catch my drift. But without it, they would literally starve. You hear the horror stories about that defector living with parasites, eating unwashed/uncooked vegetables grown in it. The key to that sentence, is that he was alive, and eating. There are kids in Africa eating mudpies that aren't as well off.

When you get into the topic of world hunger, and world population, it becomes evident that the reason why synthetic fertilizers became so popular is because they work. They supplied the demand. However, it's also becoming equally evident that following such an unsustainable path only leaves a burgeoning world population in a precarious position. Think about it in terms of the Dust Bowl, and how nobody ever saw that coming. There may be ramifications we have never expected just waiting to bite us in the ass, and there's no shortage of instances to show us where our intervention has broken down or made the problem worse.

"History shows again and again how nature points out the folly in man"
-Blue Oyster Cult
 
There's no biomass from organic farming

First off, I'm pro-organics. Just because I believe it's an ideal system of production, doesn't mean I'm going to pretend that the undertaking isn't a massive challenge. Most of the worlds farmland has had it's nutrients depleted. Even if we establish nutrient cycles now, the cycle would be nutrient depleted. To solve the nutrient depletion problem, we need to add nutrients into the system. Unless we steal them from another area, the only way is synthetic fertilizer. Using these on the field would damage them, so instead, we use them in hydroponics, and fertilize the fields with the food waste from the hydroponics systems. That we can replenish nutrient depleted fields, by adding into the nutrient cycle until the fields are healthy enough to sustain organic farming. The ultimate goal is establish a healthy organic cycle.

Toxins accumulate in soil. Heavy metals and man-made compounds like pharmaceuticals don't compost, and human waste is contaminated with them. I know that they compost the human waste before spreading it, but these toxins come with it's use. Over time, they build up. This is a very large problem that huge amounts of resources are put into to solve. Probably the largest obstacle to organic nutrient cycling, other than logistics.

Organic means that it's derived from living matter. Rocks are not living, and the salts they leach into the water, are not organic. They are naturally occurring, but not organic.

Synthetic fertilizers didn't deplete farmland of nutrients. This started occurring thousands of years ago. The depletion of farmland is caused by growing high nutrient demand plants in soil, and then not returning the waste back to the field in the form of compost. Food is grown, shipped to cities, eaten, and washed to sea via a river. There was no nutrient cycle in many places. There are huge chunks of land that became infertile long before synthetics existed. The process is called desertification. Mesopotamia was once a lush paradise, and now it's Iraq. The idea that our ancestors had it right, is just romanticism, and not factual. We started using synthetics because we depleted our farmland.

What do you do with spent chemicals? What spent chemicals? In large scale hydroponics, there doesn't have to be waste. The leftover nutrients can be analysed and accounted for, and reintegrated with the next batch of nutrient solution. We have systems with no run-off, and no contamination to water sources. The only thing produced is plants.

Water usage and availability is a huge problem. It's ignorant to not understand that many places around the world have limited water.
 
Not quite following your model


That's wrong. Yes industrial farming depleted nutrients and bio-mass from the fields, but they did so because they were using synthetics, without knowing the effects of it. We didn't have an understanding of how the soil biology worked, nor how to take advantage of it, so when synthetics were introduced it was "easy", just spread the shit and watch what grows.

But like everything we discover, we don't realize the long term negative impacts. Soil has structure, CEC is a measure on how well a soil can hold nutrients. Organic matter or SOM play a large role in this. Once you start using synthetics you're no longer putting organic matter into the soil, it starts loosing it's ability to hold nutrients, resulting in leaching, nutrients finding their way into our waterways and contaminating them. So now your fields & your waters are contaminated and 'dying'.

I still don't understand why you need big ships to haul stuff around? As pointed out, organic farming has been a thing for thousands of years always supplying everything we needed and never hurting anything. Enter synthetic fertilizers and suddenly we have large scale biological problems around the world.



What is inorganic about the mineral run off? The eco system you speak of was only created partly because of that run off, but the eco system existed there before the cannabis plant. If you had taken away the biology that turns those rock minerals into usable nutrients, the cannabis would not be able to grow in the first place.

Edit: Just wanted to clear something up as the way you're using the term inorganic makes me wonder. NO3- in a synthetic fertilizer is the exact same as NO3- derived organically, in ionic form they are the exact same. The term inorganic isn't meant to describe the nutrient itself, but to describe the method which it was derived. In organics the biology turns rock into usable nutrients, in synthetics industrialization does.

We've been depleting farmland for thousands of years, while synthetics have only been regularly used for about a century. The idea that people of the past were amazing conservationists, is a lie. Most farmland was attained by slashing and burning forests, which fertilized the land. Then they would grow crops, and ship them away. The nutrients would never be returned to the field. Our land became degraded because we weren't collecting all the organic waste, and adding it back to the fields. Proof of this, is in the tobacco and cotton trade from the US to Europe, which existed long before synthetics. When we invented synthetics, we used them as a band-aid solution to our depleted fields.

We didn't live in harmony with the land, and we lost massive areas of the world to desertification, long before industrialization.
 
Both of you are pro-organic, so not really sure the point of having a discussion about the way things were done in the past.

You use extreme conditions as reasons to use synthetics but then abuse them in conditions where they aren’t needed, sure maybe synthetics will help kick start you in a desert, are you growing in a desert right now?

You want atmospheric N brought back into the soil? Plant cover crops and rotate.

You speak of world hunger as if it’s a result of organics not being able to produce enough to sustain human life, yet 1/3 of produced food gets wasted. World hunger isn’t solved by synthetics vs organics

If I want Silica I now have the knowledge of knowing I can simply walk around and find plants growing naturally which I can use, the beauty is that there is no waste, I take what I want and use all of it none of it gets wasted. So if you know this, why would you make the conscious choice to go to a store wasting fuels to buy something that needed to be created in an industrial process creating even more environmental waste?

You continue to fight for the use of synthetics where there are proven alternatives. :Namaste:
 
Both of you are pro-organic, so not really sure the point of having a discussion about the way things were done in the past.

You use extreme conditions as reasons to use synthetics but then abuse them in conditions where they aren’t needed, sure maybe synthetics will help kick start you in a desert, are you growing in a desert right now?

You want atmospheric N brought back into the soil? Plant cover crops and rotate.

You speak of world hunger as if it’s a result of organics not being able to produce enough to sustain human life, yet 1/3 of produced food gets wasted. World hunger isn’t solved by synthetics vs organics

If I want Silica I now have the knowledge of knowing I can simply walk around and find plants growing naturally which I can use, the beauty is that there is no waste, I take what I want and use all of it none of it gets wasted. So if you know this, why would you make the conscious choice to go to a store wasting fuels to buy something that needed to be created in an industrial process creating even more environmental waste?

You continue to fight for the use of synthetics where there are proven alternatives. :Namaste:

I am in a desert of sorts. Winter here is 0% humidity, and too cold to compost.
 
In organics the biology turns rock into usable nutrients, in synthetics industrialization does.

^^^^ That.. and industrial version uses fossil fuel to do it.

Why don't we use chemical inorganic compounds to grow corn and then use that corn to burn as fuel instead of feeding the millions of starving humans? And use our tax dollars to pay for it.

Well the poor don't pay taxes <-- is not a justification for soul-less action.

We humans figured out a way that was balanced with nature to feed and nurture ourselves. That didn't include chemicals or inorganic compounds. It's all good, this process is coming full circle. We are just now beginning to understand bacteria and it's role in human life.

What we can not see; does it have any influence on our lives? Food for thought.
 
I am in a desert of sorts. Winter here is 0% humidity, and too cold to compost.


Can compost where you're growing your cannabis plants! Just sayin It will help with the RH too and won't smell.

I run no-till soil in containers, if composting didn't work in containers I wouldn't have a garden.

I grow indoors just like you. There's no reason you can't compost indoors in the very containers you are growing plants in. In areas that are snow covered and basically Tundra... there's a HUGE C & N sequestration going on. It's just frozen. Can cut it up frozen just like they do peat bogs (tundra has peat bogs) thaw and use as part of the soil mix. You will be surprised. RH ... start a fire and compost heap. Remember physics -- bring water into the environment - where's it going to go?

Full circle: rain - intake - grow - transpire - evaporate - rain.

Doesn't it snow where you are?
 
Can compost where you're growing your cannabis plants! Just sayin It will help with the RH too and won't smell.

I run no-till soil in containers, if composting didn't work in containers I wouldn't have a garden.

I grow indoors just like you. There's no reason you can't compost indoors in the very containers you are growing plants in. In areas that are snow covered and basically Tundra... there's a HUGE C & N sequestration going on. It's just frozen. Can cut it up frozen just like they do peat bogs (tundra has peat bogs) thaw and use as part of the soil mix. You will be surprised. RH ... start a fire and compost heap. Remember physics -- bring water into the environment - where's it going to go?

Full circle: rain - intake - grow - transpire - evaporate - rain.

Doesn't it snow where you are?

Do you have a guide to no-till in containers? Book suggestions?

I actually drive by the place a few times a year where they harvest the peat moss that people buy in bags. Row after row of all the different brands lined up for shipping. Digging up the peat moss on public land would get me a hefty fine though.
 
Do you have a guide to no-till in containers? Book suggestions?

I actually drive by the place a few times a year where they harvest the peat moss that people buy in bags. Row after row of all the different brands lined up for shipping. Digging up the peat moss on public land would get me a hefty fine though.

My journal's a good place to start... I've been running no-til for 5 years indoors but grow the same way outdoors in raised beds. It's pretty easy. Once you get a good source of humus you're golden.
My wife and I are avid gardeners, she kicks my ass every year with flowers larger and last longer than my cannabis plants... that's saying something. The soil mix is the same tho.

Composting is key.
 
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