What is wrong with my plants?! I'm losing the battle!

[Lusi]

I've tried asking this one before and no one replied... Fist the question I need answered the most, I'll be checking this every few minutes hoping that one answer will tell me what to do. All the transplanting info I find is for clones. What is best to feed a freshly transplanted early flowering plant? DO I give it Super thrive, Root Juice, or Root 66 for more root growth, or do I feed it just the nutes for flowering? I have not watered them and am hoping someone sees this in the next few hours. Not sure how long the plant can sit in dry soil without perishing. TY!!!

Now the rest.... the photos and problems are little changed since my last thread asking for help. :-(
I have 2 plants in flower (only 2 weeks) and 4 in veg, 4 different strains. They all get the Technaflora nute feeding schedule and until now have all received the nuted for growing, not flowering. Each of the 4 strains has a completely different nute problem, text book pics matching all the ones I see online and in books, plus a few more I don't figure. All are in soil, water, water, nute schedule.

I've run out of ideas!! The water PH is at 6.0 (out of tap 6.8) and I sit the open jugs out a few days to evaporate chlorine. The soil PH is at 6.0 too. Every 2 days, I'm trimming about 15-20 damaged leaves off the largest plants and 1 or 2 off the small ones.Today I had to transplant the 2 flowering ladies into 6 gallon pots. I'm sitting here debating what to feed them.... super thrive, or Root Juice, or the technaflora schedule for flowering plants that includes Thrive Alive, Awesome blossom, sugar daddy, MagiCal, BS Bloom, and BC Boost. The vegging plants don't get the Awesome blossom or bloom. I have Root 66 too, seems useless.All the nutes these leaves show are missing are contained in the fertilizers I give them! It's been over a month and the plants are getting worse daily. Even the clones I took show the same probs as the plants I took them from. I am out of ideas!!!! I even flushed the heck out of them 2 days ago and they are no more happy than before. Wilted weak leaves and stems... so many problems. There problems started before i bought the technafolora nute kit, so no blame there. I've been fighting the problems since the flowering plants were just seedlings!

Please, can someone help me before I kill everything? I have plenty of pics and will list me best guess of the problem for each one. Here's the latest pics, which are also in my journal:

Shiva Shanti II clone in flower for 2 weeks. Transplanted form 3 to 6 gallon today. She shows Magnesium def for sure, plus Sulfur, Nitrogen, Calcium, and or Iron def. Probs. The leaves start with The edges yellow with green veins, then streaks of pale yellow and green on the leaves, finally all yellow with purple veins. Each day I find more leaves doing this! Her growth and roots look great!? Both new and old leaves are effected. Few of them are growing to full size. The leaves of the clones and the undergrowth of the the adult taken from this plant clearly match the description for Magnesium. Many doses of MagiCal have done nothing. I think it also has N probs too. The pics are from this week. I need to shrink the new ones. This is "Fluffy". Gotta name them to keep track of them!

Next is the White Skunk, grown from fem seeds form White Label. This strain has been a pain in the A since it sprouted! To me, it screams Phosphorus def, and potassium, plus a few others. The older growth is effected with dark green leaves that have week bendy stems and soft drooping leaves. After the drooping, the spots around the edges are next followed by brown spots and yellowing, or on some leaves dark purple. It gets all of these nutes in it's food! Thus I also just transplanted today, I'll leave her in her new pot, un-watered, until I hear what to do! All plants were flushed a few days back and look no better or worse. This cranky strain is acting very similar to the Bubba Kush clones I bought. I should add all of these have been given the best of the best Optic Foliar spray, identical to the Dutch Master trio with saturator, liquid light etc,. Fist page of my journal has the details. Spray-n-grow has also failed to help. This plant is names "Twister" because the dang leaves like to flip and twist:

Next are the healthy thriving Bubba Kush Pre98 clones. I will never buy cones every again. What a pain! These 2 are acting almost identical to twister above, but not as severe. The plant clearly has Phosphorus issues with the dark green and dead purple patches on the older leaves. These also the weak stems and drooping lower leaves, but not as bad as Twister. It gets plenty of phosphorus in it's nutes. WTF?!
In these pics, the dark green fat leaves are from these 2 clones:

Despite the problems, they are growing faster than I can repot them, every 4 days. Wierd! See how otherwise healthy they look?!

Last... The Grand Daddy Purple clones I bought. I've had them a month and am desperately trying to coax them to live. It was the only clones the dispensary had to offer and they were pale sad things. One is at least trying to grow, the other sits there, pale green and yellow with large brown blotches on the older leaves, new ones each day. Good root growth though?! These 2 are the small clones in the photos. They are only 10 days younger than the healthy BBK clones in the photo! This strain does nothing for my pain, but was the only choice to replace the seeds I bought which never germinated. My best guesses are Potassium, Calcium, or Manganese defs. ??? Again, they are fed the same as the rest. :-( Pics of the tiny yellow clones are these 2:

OK folks.. my only guess to this is PH problems. However, my PH looks good to me??!!! Should I raise it to 6.5 from 6?? What is going on here? I'll add the new photos later, here and in the journal from hell. I'll try anything, just name it! At this point, I'm having more fun testing some of my unusual unique growing gadgets than growing the plants. I have found 2 inventions so valuable to growers, anyone stocking them will be the only in the US. I'm inviting the owner of the local hydro shop over for a tour and business proposition. I can't demo these gadgets if all the plants die! LOL I have a few more days to rescue them. <sigh>

What am I doing wrong?! TY for any little tidbit of info all you better growers will share.

Lusi

 

[Stilletto]

Well that is a mess of issues. lol
I am lost on some of the problems.
I will put my noodle to work and get back to ya asap.

Jonny

 

[Stilletto]

So first off, I just don't like soil... who knows what is in there?... Soilless is so much easier to diagnose. Anyway on to some issues.
Some look like definciencies and some nute eccessive nute probs. The flush was a good idea. I understand it takes 2 days for the top of the plant to react to what the roots are experiencing. So the flush has now stripped the nutes from the soil and I think it is using up stored energy in the leaves. But that would only acct for part of the problem.
The root system could have desiese or damage? Did you use H2O2 on the flush? IMO it would be a must to rebuild the root system symbiosis with it's enzyme/bacteria. As soon as the soil is "clean" then hit it with 3/4 dose of nutes and some "root juice" (fulvic complexes). Superthrive is a good idea too. Now the roots are health and the plant has food to rebuild. In 3-4 days should look good. Consider doing a foliar with a "Green enhancer" type nute or at very least spray with 1/4 or less veg nute, just so it will take some pressure off the roots.
Also light could be an issue... what kind? watts? How old are bulbs?(<---often overlooked).

Jonny

 

[WillyBudz]

6.0 ph in soil is the very low end, almost lockout. Is lockout unless a premium soil mix is used and even then you are messing around too close to the bottom. Yes, soil 6.0 - 7.0 but you really want it 6.5 - 7.0 . I have seen soil grows at even 7.5 do ok but I would not suggest that. Have you tried some epsom salt / Dolomite lime for mag deficiancy?

If it were me I would use some lime and 6.5 - 7.0 ph water. Soil cal - mag lockout happens under 6.5ph.



WillyB

 

[The303Stoner]

I think too much nitro locks everything else out. Over watering and compact soil does damage like this to. have tried not using acid. Humic acid can help get the plant balanced. give one plant more food and another one less and see witch gets better. oh man good luck. To transplant feed with your Thrive Alive, sugar daddy, MagiCal use full recommendations for feeding and fixing def. your soil should cover the rest.

 

[billmoe93]

Def raise your ph. 6.0 is no good.

Take a look at this if you haven't already. Especially the part about lockouts.

Cannabis Plant and Pest Problem Solver - Pictorial

 

[Lusi]

Thank you so much!!!!! I'm mixing up a batch of spray n grow/ coco wet to use while the plants are not under the light. I'll hold off watering or feeding the freshly transplanted gals til I hear back. I have to repot the other 4 this week too.

I've had problems with the White Skunk strain and given up on the Previous 2 plants I grew outdoors. This one got the best of care inside, following the nute instructions, and it is still just as ugly as the ones I threw out. Logic screams it is impossible that all these are showing different probs on the same nutes which adequately include all the nutrients to fix the problems the plants have. I've noticed the GDP and Shiva shanti are sprouting hundreds of tiny useless leaves right off of the main stem. The leaves never grow up! The previous white Skunk I threw outside lost all of her fan leaves and was also covered in these tiny immature leaves around the stem. Her fan leaves were softly wilted too. The new leaves were not wilted but all curled inward along the stem. She's still alive outside and I have pics of this happening. However, those leaves were not spotted or yellow, just dead white. I'm not sure if the problem is related, hope not! She never developed any trichs after months in bloom. There's pics of that in my journal too.

This is nuts. :-( I'm working on today's pics. Might not get them up tonight. TY for helping me...

Lusi

 

[Lusi]

Thanks guys!

I need to back track here.... I dropped my soil PH to 6 a month ago hoping it would solve these problems. Obviously, it didn't. I'll put it back to just de-chlorinated tap water which is 6.8... or is 6.5 the best goal? That's easy enough! This blows. Now what?? Lowering the PH of the water/ soil seemed to help the Magnesium def. probs, but nothing else. It was the only idea I had left ... :-( Would PH acidity make the magnesium absorb better and lock out all the other nutes?

OK the soil... This last mix is of organic weed free no nutes added potting soil mixed with sand and perlite to help it drain better. Today, I've mixed this in with a soiless mix I found online that is very light and fluffy. I'm hoping it will improve things too. I don't want to by a $40 bag of sunshine mix until after I move. LOL I can't blame the soil for this, yet.

SO these two flowering ladies I transplanted today can get the full flowering nutes from the company, Red Thrive Alive, MagiCal, Awesome Blossom, Sugar Daddy, BC Bloom, and BC boost? No Super thrive, root 66, or Root Juice? My logic here was new transplants would like the B vits to help root growth, but on the other hand the plants are in flower, sort of.

I sure hope another PH change will be the ticket. All these plants have been fed on the Technaflora schedule exactly as it says. :-( When this is gone, I'm going back to tomato food. These fancy nutes have made no difference that I can see yet. What a scam!

TY for all the advice!! Oh, are my guesses of which nute probs each plant has in the ball park? I'm still trying to learn.... slowly, very slowly, learn.

 

[WillyBudz]

6.8 is more or less the perfect ph for best use of all nutes in soil, on Average.

There are variables for different plants, grow rooms etc. Everybodies grow is a little different just because of room conditions + nutes used + lights + soil brand and makeup etc... etc .. Some swear by 6.3 others closer to 7.0 and both can in fact work very well for the specific conditions.

As BillMoe93 linked above go here: Cannabis Plant and Pest Problem Solver - Pictorial and use that info as a base start point. Tweak in small increments at a time till you lock in on your grow. It is easy if you grow the same strains a few times over in the same conditions to get it dialed in.


Good luck,
WillyB

 

[Lusi]

I have quite a collection of books growing and even more saved websites. I've read all this stuff, that's why I included what I believe each plant is lacking in my pics. The description of "mobile nutes" are the most likely. I wish I knew if my guesses were anywhere int he ball park. :-( If you see one I've guessed wrong, it would really help to be corrected and help me figure out what is wrong! I've already said what I've tried to remedy these, the same things the books and websites say to do. I lowered my PH because of problems with Mg, now I have to raise it back up. I agree, it's the only solution left. I just wish it wasn't going backwards to where I was.

People really do have different ideas of what PH is best... It seems to go beyond what PH hydro vs soil uses, and if a medium claiming PH balance is not acidic enough for MJ. One chart says 6.0 to 7.0 for max nutrient absorption. Until recently, I've been leaving the water and soil PH as is, 6.8. When every darn plant showed magnesium problems despite getting plenty of Mg, I decided to try a lower PH. The Mg problem went mostly away... However, the funny pale green and yellow variegated leaves on Shiva Shanti still have me stumped as to which nute. None of the photos or descriptions look similar. Add in a few yellow leaves with purple veins, and it makes no sense together. I don't really have a good guess to this particular plant's problems.

I've read everything out there and have attempted to feed all these plants what nutes the info said they needed the last few months. It didn't help! Even now, shouldn't 6.0 PH still allow these nutes to be used by the plant? Are my charts that much off? I'll try and creep the PH back to 6.5 range one little bit at a time. At least the new potting mix claims to be PH balanced, whatever that means.

One important thing to add that could mean PH has little to do with this... My foliar sprays and technaflora nutes are not PH adjusted. They say not to do this... I'm getting around 6.5 after the nutres are added. I've only been adjusting the water in between. Since the plant gets all of its nutes at the correct PH, why isn't it absorbing them? I don't give them the PH adjusted water to 6.0 until the nutes are absorbed and the soil is pretty dry. This one thing really is not making sense! Also, the foliar sprays I've used contain enough nutes to fix most of the problems I have, that's why I bought them. There has been zero difference in any of the growth between foliar feeds. These are also self adjusting to 6.5. I've done my homework and followed every instructions for the problems I find, but nothing has made any difference whatsoever. I've run out of things to try! That's why I ended up posting here again. 4 strains, 6 plants all showing different problems and on the same food. The only deficiency I'm 100% sure of is the phosphorus on the dark green plants. It makes no sense.

I'm crossing my fingers raising the PH back up will solve this. TY all for the advice... I'll be back with results, good or bad. Perhaps I should gather all my dead leaves and write my own nute book with them. What a mess!

Not to start a cat fight... but this topic has been bugging me every time I mix all these nutes together and follow the page of nute instructions...

Does any one out there growing in soil every ignore all of this nute stuff and just use plain old generic organic tomato feed? Do all of these designer nutes really work, or are these companies making them just as crooked as drug companies, creating a different nute for every ailment and a bunch more to enhance the yield. All of which we all must dash out to buy. There's gotta be a better option in between 100% organic where you have to compost your own manure or mix in all the soil amendments by hand, the lime, gypsum, bat guano, worm castings, etc. I have little doubt that would give lovely plants as it has for hundreds of years. Not all of us can do this. Where are products in between the extremes?

I'll use my Technaflora starter kit as an example. I have Red and Green Thrive Alive where one is enough. I have Sugar Daddy, MagiCal, Root 66, Awesome blossom, and Rootech clone gel. All this crap (minus rootech) should be in the darn fertilizer I bought from the same company. Not only did I get BC grow and BC Bloom, but BC Boost too. This little kit is really cool, I'm learning all of these things should be in the fertilizer given for growing and blooming. I shouldn't have to buy all of this junk at all and feed it every time even when there is no sign of deficiency in the nutes each thing contains. It's like buying a cough medicine, and a decongestant, and an antihistamine, and an expectorant, and even acetaminophen and ibuprofen and/ or a sleeping med and take every one of these blasted things at once when one product should have all of these things in it. oh lets and vitamin C, Zinc, calcium, and echinatia to the mix. What a wealthy drug company it is that says all of these things are needed to make me feel better and never get sick again. I go home with 11 products instead of one or two. Look at women;s make up companies and men's athletic magazines.... same deal. Are we all just a bunch of suckers?

Are there any of you out there growing for years that still use all of these products each time you feed? Soil, not hydro, That's a different situation. Anyone want to tackle that one? I guess growers sponsoring any of the nute companies can't answer, but the rest? I know this entire question of mine is a bit weird... Drug companies and Nute companies are both pushers. They are darn good at it too. :-(

Back to dragging around gallons of water. Phew! Oh hope this works!! I have my camera read to shoot the minute I see anything good.

TY!

 

[burrr]

Your tap water ph sounds kind of odd. Most public water systems have alkaline (above 7 ph water) by code. It keeps pipes from corroding. You should make sure your ph testing equipment is still dialed in.

I wish I could help you diagnose your nute/plant issues, but I've never experienced them in my few hydro grows. the one time I had sickly looking plants in soil I fixed them by transplanting them to hydro.

these plants have recovered and are about to supply me with much dank!

 

[billmoe93]

You should probably be using the most recent and credible information for growing. I had been using a book that was published in 2001 pretty much as my bible for years. I had great results, but there were still a few puzzling problems. So much info has been made available since then, especially scientific data since growing has become more socially acceptable. This site has provided so much information and cataloged it well.

Ive seen books with wildly conflicting ideals on growing. A lot of this is the writers personal experience and bias so its not surprising.

As for nutes, Ive used Old Age for years by recommendation from another grower. It worked great, my recent grow is on Fox Farms and I am pleased with the results. There are quite a few nute companies who understand marketing very well and have no problems selling you overpriced bullshit. People don't want to do the research but want to think they are knowledgeable and fall for gimmicky 7 stage nute lines with fancy names. Its a buyer beware market now.


Half the stuff you named I have no clue what it is, Im sure it works but is probably not necessary and at some point might be counterproductive. Right now I have the FoxFarm trio, a bag of dolomite lime and bottle of neem oil and thats it. Right now my plants are at day 33 of flower and they are healthy and super frosty. My only frustrations with them is trying to stop them from falling over from the weight of the buds.

Before you condemn all the nute lines, make sure you are using them correctly with your ph at the right level or your just pouring nutes down the drain.

Magnesium gets locked out anything under 6.4
Calcium gets locked out at anything under 6.4
Molybdenum gets locked out anything under 6.5

"Molybdenum deficiencies frequently resemble a nitrogen deficiency." This is all from the pictorial we linked for you.

Really read that pictorial. I thought I knew what I was doing and had years of experience. Taking the time to read that whole pictorial made me twice the grower I was. I know you said you read everything but you wouldn't even have asked if you should raise your ph from 6.0 if you really read that pictorial. Skimming over the pics doesn't count man

Anyhow gl, don't get too discouraged and frustrated growing is suppose to be fun. You might have to relearn some stuff you thought you knew but you will be far better off in the long run.

 

[Lusi]

Hi guys,

Here's a book... hope to add new photos and links later.

The problems is getting worse, I remove 10-15 dead sick leaves a day off of the adults in bloom. The Shiva Shanti plant now has tiny dark green specks all over the pale greenish yellow leaves. The clones from this plant who have not rooted yet are also giving the same symptoms and are not rooting. I took the clones before the mother plant had these signs. The White skunk clones are at least rooting, but as the mother plants and the same of this strain I threw out a while back was doing this, but much worse. The mid aged leaves are hit first. New leaves on all plant tips look OK. The new leaves along the stems do not. The stems are covered in tiny leaves that never grow up. All of these darn symptoms are covered in my books and online. It's that they are all happening at the same time and not improving with the correct nutes.

Even if it is the PH, all of these shouldn't happening at once and with nutes effected by opposite PH. My own hope to really fix the problem is to make sure my guesses and problems are the right ones. It's the only idea I have. I've already written bout and on the photos what I think is wrong. Most of the photos and descriptions on the link everyone keeps giving me are in the 3 books I have. I have many links to other websites and people with the same problems. Cervantes and Rosehnthal, and Stitch. The lest 2 i bought during my outdoor grow when I had n problems outside. The Cervantes has only watercolor paintings of the leaves at different stages of the problem. The last 2 books have many of the pics shared, but they are real photos and of all the problems, unlike the Cervantes. The Cervantes was also outdated on info, 2006.

If I knew the answers, I wouldn't have posted this. I've been over a month already looking. I even brought the leaves both to a local dispensary and to a shop where the gardening dept had someone who grows. They have no idea! PH is the first guess, but probs caused by both high and low PH are both showing up. My leaves match too many problems at once to be possible, even the darn clones! I'm hoping another person out there has had or seen this or can think of another factor that effects the plant to not use or absorb the nutes it already has plenty of, something besides PH. There's gotta be something I missed or haven't read yet. You can see the progress in my journal, including two completely messed up plants I threw out from the last grow. They are more tortured than the ones now, again... no answers. There must be another factor that all of these plants have in common, perhaps even the old ones. Ask me any info or pics and I'll do them on here ASAP


Brrr, did you ever find out what was wrong with the plants? The one on the back right looks like one I threw out. My buying this kit of fancy Nutes were in hope to fix that problem. I've changed lights, indoor to out, nutes, soil, soil mixes, PH, water, pots and pot material. What have I missed?!

Which hydro is that you have? Glad you saved the plants. Soil is more idiot proof for me, or at least soil less mixes I can treat like soil. One HUGE reason for me to stay on soil is the new irrigation invention from Austria. I can leave it for weeks and never have to worry about nutes, PH over and under-watering, frequency and amount of watering. I flush once a month and still water water feed, but if I'm ill or gone and can't or forget to water, the thing immediately on its own waters. It's perfect and can be used with any medium that holds moisture, even rook wool and Oasis. I've tested it on everything indoors. The company has it marketed as balcony use. hydro uses a lot of nutes and water, most which seem wasted. There is no run off with my system, no nutes are flushed out until or unless I want them to. I guess I could even add nutes to the tank if diluted enough. There's no reason to yet. That said, I did just change growing medium with 2 plants. maybe like your change to hydro, this one thing will matter.

When I use to have an aquarium, I remember always adding pH down for well and city. I don't have one here, but have checked my tap and gotten a reading from the water company. It really is 6.8! I had a lot of copper and sulfur in previous homes. The copper pipes were all eaten up in Europe. Nasty in the water. Here, there's calcium and lime in the city water I believe. Most of the visible pipes her are PVC. Now I'm curious to poke around more. It doesn't freeze here, but PVC is foolish and easy to break. I'm moving in the country to well water soon. I need a better way to test PH, but the litmus paper, liquid test and one of the two soil testers are agreeing on the 6.8, possible a bit lower to 6.5 once in the soil. It doesn't make sense. I do test each gallon of water before I use it. I test before and after any additives and test the soil run off in between nutes. I need to check that one again when I water next time.

That's about all I can think of. TY for the tip. I'll read the reports again for city and well. What a PITTA! Is well water any healthier for the plants? I already leave me jugs out a few days to get rid of chlorine. Is that the only harmful additive in city water? I won't drink it, bleh. Water shouldn't taste like anything...

Bill93,

TY for the pile of advice! This problem is getting more frustrating. I'm tired of clipping off piles of dead or yellow spotted leaves each day. I've replied best I could.

Gotta do the quote thing:

You should probably be using the most recent and credible information for growing. This site has provided so much information and cataloged it well.

Ive seen books with wildly conflicting ideals on growing. A lot of this is the writers personal experience and bias so its not surprising.


You are right! I had a 2006 book by Cervantes that had outdated grow room supplies and nute stuff, plus few pics of bugs. I now have 2 Rosenthal books, 2010. I also have read the links on many others that I can't share here. There are several other nute guides on this website here. Also right, these authors and those of people with guides disagree more than they agree. The other online guides are really opinionated, but not as bad with companies selling nutes. Still, drawings or photos, the nute problem info I've found mostly agree with each other and together give a broader idea.

As for nutes, Ive used Old Age for years by recommendation from another grower. It worked great, my recent grow is on Fox Farms and I am pleased with the results. There are quite a few nute companies who understand marketing very well and have no problems selling you overpriced bullshit. People don't want to do the research but want to think they are knowledgeable and fall for gimmicky 7 stage nute lines with fancy names. Its a buyer beware market now.

Which do you like better, FoxF or Old Age? I have to look that one up. I had some local made nutes call Dr. Earth. They were organic and rec over Fox Farms at the local shop. I got them home and sat down to read up, they have to be mixed in the soil and last 2 months. A tea could be made, but if left out more than a half day, the house needs aired out. I don't have enough plants to mix soil like that and certainly don't want to do it when the nutes run out it the plants isn't read for transplant. I spent the months of mt first grow, outside, reading about all of these companies. I chose the only one with a small starter kit for under $50.

My main nute fears.... must be a liquid that doesn't expire or rot, like compost tea. I don't want to mix in powder, or all other organic additives, like guano, lime and worm castings, to the soil. I want the possibility to flush all the nutes out if need be, then replace them. The other problem is getting nutes really made for soil. Most seem altered versions of the hydro nutes.

In the nute brands you use, are you just getting the basic veg and bloom nutes, are are you adding a lot of these other products offered in the same line and of course on their "schedule." I ask because one complete nutrient for vegging and one complete for flowering is all the plant should ever need. Other things to fix PH or correct any nute issue should be seldom needed for an experienced grower, right? It's us newbies that get sucked in? I've read of many folks using only tomato food, veg to harvest. That leaves a few things that might enhance a harvest or yield. I'd love to hear what some experienced growers do. Also, what about the outdoor farmers with hundreds of hungry plants. I'm not feeding the outdoor horde this expensive meal. The weeds would sneak in and steal it.


Half the stuff you named I have no clue what it is, Im sure it works but is probably not necessary and at some point might be counterproductive.

I'm relieved to hear that!! The Sugar Daddy nute fell over and drove e out a few ours. Sugar my @ss! As I said above, a good fert should have all it needs. only in the MJ craze have I seen this obsession with nutes. All of my organic gardening magazines and other garden books either have you doing it the old way (which I can't) or give you a few basic food choices.... Roses, Acid lovers/ Azelias/ tomatoes, veggies and herbs, container plants, and house plants. There's no company selling a nute for each vegetable out there. Tomatoes are loving the same as MJ, so why not just tomato food indoors and out?


Right now I have the FoxFarm trio, a bag of dolomite lime and bottle of neem oil and thats it. Right now my plants are at day 33 of flower and they are healthy and super frosty. My only frustrations with them is trying to stop them from falling over from the weight of the buds.

Does Fox Farm sound like something that might work for me? I'd sure like buds that fall over. ) I'm a long way from running out of the starter kit, but FF might have an affordable product all in one to feed the outdoor garden. The only question of them was I've read and heard there was a big problem with their fertilizers recently. Is it still there? What soil do you use? Why the adding of lime, is it your water?

Before you condemn all the nute lines, make sure you are using them correctly with your ph at the right level or your just pouring nutes down the drain.

The PH, It's already back up. Things are still getting worse... as I explained, I went back through my notes and saw it was originally at 6.8 before I dropped it to 6 because of the nitrogen def. The magnesium prob was on the outdoor plants. One of my books says 6.0 to 7.0 is perfect and nute lock out is above and below that, that one has a chart of which nutes and which PH lock out. I then re-read my nute desc. It's balanced to make the PH 6.3 to 6.5. Thus means every 3rd 6.0 watering, they are fed their nutes at 6.3 and should be absorbed before they are dry enough to water again. That is even more confusing!

As for nute companies, if it's bashing them to compare them pharmaceutical companies, then bash away. The almighty dollar comes first to most companies. They many be old, new, wonderful, crap. Money keeps them floating.

Now that we know they all need money, how can you pick the good from bad? If good, what of that company is a must have to grow? They most will sell similar items to be competitive. An old company might have outdated products that don't work better than they did 20 years ago. It could also have wonderful products, just as great as they were 20 years ago. A new company might have the latest and best of healthy but easier to use products. On the other hand they can be giving out chemicals for enhancing crops or yield that are in reality harsh chemicals, ones you'd never even think as dangerous building in plants and humans since everything looked amazing and tasted that way too. Chemicals can be good or not. The exact same can be said about drug companies!!

So, how are we to find out what is goof info and bad? like you said, some companies know how to market their product. Not much different than ordering a product on the menu and it neither looks like the pic or tastes like the description. The market for bug spray is equally aggressive, but at least it's easy to see if it works or not. I guess trial and error for an advanced grower would answer that, good or bad. It's what is not really needed we need expert advice on as newbies. I've read so many newbie journals where they dash out and by every product on the line or chose a lone, then get additive fever and collect miracle cures. I was delighted to find a Starter kit for $35. It has every product that company has, good or bad! Other companies might sounds better, but I didn't have a few hundred to try out the line all at once. At least with a medication, I can say it works or not.

If there is an old fashioned soul out there that knows a complete fertilizer, or even 2, that can be given indoor and/ or out, I'd love to hear. I'm tired of being one of the millions of suckers to be dazzled by ads but physically unable to mix and lug pails of soil used in most organic farming. I'll read more one Fox Farms and Old Age. The problems mentioned could be in one of my books. These guys are certainly biased. LOL!

Ah, forgot to mention. I changed my soil to a soil free mix almost identical to seedling mix. Te 2 oldest plants have been transplanted in here. No improvement in their problems, just the new dark green specs, like mites in reverse colors.

Magnesium gets locked out anything under 6.4
Calcium gets locked out at anything under 6.4
Molybdenum gets locked out anything under 6.5

"Molybdenum deficiencies frequently resemble a nitrogen deficiency." This is all from the pictorial we linked for you.

There are no symptoms of Molybdenum def, nor iron, manganese and copper. 100% sure of that one.

Mag, zinc, Iron, Sulfer and Nit could be possible. I put the pics up to find what and why. The magnesium would only be in the Shiva Shanti. The mirror image of Iron seems magnesium, so my guess is that.

Phos, Pot, Calcium, definitely, no doubt. These are the most obvious they have, but not all of them.

Really read that pictorial. I thought I knew what I was doing and had years of experience. Taking the time to read that whole pictorial made me twice the grower I was. I know you said you read everything but you wouldn't even have asked if you should raise your ph from 6.0 if you really read that pictorial. Skimming over the pics doesn't count man

I don't know how many times I have to say I've read these, all of the, and many times over the past 8 months. I was told lowering the PH to 6 would help the problems. The guys I showed the leaves said this as does my graph in the book that it was worth the try. Even more the the PH issue. I never adjusted my PH until I bought my grow tent. It was out of the tap, 6.8. The photos of my SHiva Shanti and White Skunks show clearly Phosphorus and Magnesium, possible more not seen in pics. The curled and wilted leaves and stems aren't in a single photo. The plants I threw out made these look like angels. I had hoped and thought it was PH again, but after checking earlier photos of normal PH, I know it's not. It was 6.8 until I bought PH down in November and lowered it to 6.5, then 2 weeks ago to 6.0. The only new problem from the switch from 6.5 to 6.0 is Calcium. The tiny speckles on the leaf edges are a perfect match to the Cervantes drawing. All other problems are older. So, not that I went over my grow notes again, can we please look for something else that could do this? The plants were all flushed then fed their usual Technaflora nutes which PH the water to 6.3, closer to 6.5 in my check. they had these same nutes and water the last round. Only the flush and previous 2 waterings were at 6.0.

 

[burrr]

Lusi,
OMG, you have been chasing your tail for a while with these plants.
My sickly plants had spider mites and fungas gnats, and who knows what kind of deficiency's. After I made the switch to the waterfarms, I was done trouble shooting.
They simply recovered by going hydro, and killing the bugs off.

I cant imagine that your soil is lacking any nutes after all of the stuff you've given them.
I bet your lockouts are being caused by too much of certain other nutes.

My suggestion would be to water the soil plants with plain water, maybe even distilled water for a few weeks.
The plants you moved to soiless mediums should be easier to control, feed them a weak basic nute solution and skip the additives.
good luck!

 

[Captain Kronic]

Sorry for your troubles Lusi... I can only hope you are learning something for all of your lost sanity... LOL
Anyways... I just wanted to comment to all of us here that will, in the future be posting a question or needing help in the garden.
This thread is what a call for help should look like... lots of pics and details of the underlying problem/s.

+rep for the thoroughness of your OP Lusi!

 

[Droopy Dog]

I'll try and keep this simple and you can do or not do as you see fit.

Your pH is wrecked, the twisted leaves show this. Simple solution. Top dress with POWDERED Dolomite Lime at the rate of 2tbl/gallon of mix and water it in. DO NOT use pellets or hydrated lime. Lowes has the powdered, it's labeled as "Ground Dolomite Lime". ~$5 for a 40# bag.

Second you are just plain dumping too many varied additives on them. My eyes started crossing reading all that stuff. LOL How about nothing for a couple of weeks? I mean nada, just tap water that has set out (your tap sounds fine IMO), not a spritz of this or a bit of that to "help" the girls.

You are just plain loving them to death with all this unnecessary crap.

Get and add the lime and nothing but water for 2 weeks and you will see a vast improvement.

DD

 

[billmoe93]

Listen to Droop....he knows what he is doing. If you can't find the powdered dolomite lime you can buy the pebbles and grind them yourself. Ive done this in a pinch and it worked out alright. A hammer and a ziploc bag is a rudimentary solution. Try to get the powder though its just better.

About the nute company questions. It can be difficult to weed out the good companies from the bad. One thing I don't like is when the nute company doesn't disclose detailed analysis. If they are claiming a secret recipe and charging 50% more than another companies product it makes me think twice. So far all the nutes I have used were not marketed specifically for bud. I know there are brands specifically marketed for bud that are good and reasonably priced, but i have no experience with them. One way to think about it is, do you think the pot farmers in Amsterdam are paying 45 dollars a quart for fancy nutes? I doubt it and their bud is A1 quality.

I really liked the Old Age Organics its a good no frills line thats been around since before the boom of nutes. I bought the foxfarm trio because it was on sale for 25 bucks for the three. So far I really like it, no problems as of yet. The grow big is a basic veg nute. The tiger bloom is a basic bloom nute. The Big bloom is just earthworm castings and bat guano which plants love. They don't really smell bad and they dont mess with the ph too much.

I use the Dolomite lime for the extra calcium and mag. It also helps stabilize the soils ph. For soil Im just using the local organic potting soil from the home depot supplemented with a bunch of perlite and some dl.

I apologize for implying you aren't doing your reading. It actually seems like you got too much information I really hope you get them sorted out, I know how disheartening it is when you think you are going to lose a grow. Gods speed sir

 

[Lusi]

TY everyone!

Here's the latest. The pics will have to wait another day, I'm behind here! First the update, then what ya'll said.
All plants are now transplanted into a soil free mix, the basic sphagnum peat, perlite and vermiculite plus lime and one similar item that had calcium. It's two different mixes, one was $10 for 20cf and the other $14 for 30cf. Is this a good price for a good nute free soil free mix?

Despite all of this work, I'm finding 2 very distinctive new problems in only 2 of the plants. None of these match all the nute pics I've collected or their descriptions. Most online info is word for word from my books. Now SOMEWHERE I have seen a guide or two that had photos matching my 2 new problems. I can't find where! It's late, I'll work on the photos tomorrow and play catch up. The other problems are continuing with no positive change. Both Bubba Ks now match the White Skunk, Twister in the wilted droopy older leaves. i fear all the other phosphorus symptoms will be added to this plant too. The only other odd new thing is the hundreds of tiny little leaves sprouting from the base stems of all 6 plants. They never grow up, some over burnt tips,, others that have that low Mag like look with green veins. This also points P, I need to stop it before it starts making bendy stems and speckled leaves. Calcium is also obvious in all 6.

They've all been flushed last week then sat for 3 days before I added some Thrive in then regular nutes. The PH of the soil is 6.5. What the heck is wrong?! My clones are also sad like the parents. The unrooted ones and rooted. The water is all these have in common. ;-(

Brrr,
I've never heard of such a thing... hydro fixing bugs, no srpays??! What hydro nutes did you switch too. I'd love to read what's in them (if they even say) and see what could repel the bugs. Seems to me feeding a plant garlic would work. LOL Vit B 1... it repels mosquitoes and biting bugs if you use it on your skin (or animal). It smells incredibly bad and makes your sweat smell and skin taste as bad as it smells. In order to work, you have to take 200 or more MG daily until your time out side passes. Extra B-1 in the body is all flushed out. I couldn't stand the smell of myself while taking it. It's a looong shot in the dark that b-1 foliar spray could repel bugs? That would be cool. The plant would reek until it absorbed it, but mixed with oil... hmm. Did you spray with and B foliar when u switched? (not likely) My nute kit has Thrive Alive red. If not, I'm ust plain curious. If there was a system bug repellent safe and adding no flavor humans hate, what a genius thing for a nute company to find. All my houseplants are on nute/ bug killing tabs by Bayer. Works better than anything else, even outside.

Pain killers must be working, my mind wanders. (sorry)

CK,
No one is ever done learning anything. LOL! You can bet when I find the culprits for the wacky plants, I sure won't forget. This just seems... impossible?!

TY for the compliment. I get lots of complaints about how long my posts and such are. I put myself to sleep re-editing enough to keep the info and meaning. Ya should see these books before the chop! LOL My journal has one brave man reading and helping me... Too many details, but they all help me, so I write them. My entire approach is as a teacher, one must remember what it was to learn the subject, for me details. LOL This is to include every detail I can think of that would help someone else help me... the details I'd ask for if helping someone else. Maybe something in the mess will help another.

I've been frustrated reading people journals where I'm looking for products to try or read up on. Like why they chose this or that. I include every product I use, good or bad, how much it was, where I got it, pics, experiments, and of course the results. The big mistake I made was not putting the links in as I posted. Other site you can edit later, so I need to make one post of manufacturer and product links. :-( I'll have to back fill since I can't edit my previous posts. I just love experiments, one product vs another. Give two things to test and compare, ya made my day. No one is stopping by there to say hi, but I hope they got what they needed.

Anyway.... another long winded reply. I'll be back filling in this thread and pics and links so the next guy searching sees what happened.

Droopy Dog,
I've used Lime outside, no problem to get some for indoors. The Dolomite lime I'm used to is coarse, like sand. Is this it? I think Quick Lime is a powder... been a few years. My fear for the lime PH control has been that it isn't water soluble and difficult to regulate as a top dressing getting even PH balance. The Doctor Earth Nutes I bought have lime, but had to be stirred in the soil and redone every 2 months. WHo in the heck can afford that on the balcony (tons of containers) let alone used as garden fertilizer. So, I stuck with liquid mixes.

How long or how many waterings does the top dressing last? I don't have to add it to the soil before planting? That would help! Just need to know how often to replace it. The new potting mixes have Lime in them, dolomatic Lime and calciate Lime, whatever that is. Do I still need to buy Lime extra or will this work? The mix claims to be PH balanced. All plants are now transplanted in this new mix, but were also fed all the other BS nutes the instructions asked for.

All these friggin nutes... Everyone's advice was to buy all the nutes from one company and follow instructions exactly until I know what I'm doing. All the nutes I looked at would need at least $100 to get started. I only chose the Technaflora because it had minis sizes in an affordable kit. The first time any of these plants were fed this mix was on January second. More important, I have photos off every single one of these plants showing nutrient problems before I even used the new kit! I agree, too many of these nutes frying the plants, but see here the two now flowering gals, back when they were vegging:

Lusi's 1st Indoor Grow Journal - In My New GL80L Tent

Look up to the top of that page and you'll see the 2 flowering plants i threw out. I had these posted forever looking for the reasons they were so messed up. Even pics of my 1st grow, outside, shows the Shiva Shanti strain as having some weird problems, besides bugs. I had fun torturing that grow with Miracle Grow Tomato food, the only thing I could find at the time. The blooming Nutes where Botanicare Pro Bloom, the same nutes being given to the tortured twisted 2 plants I threw out!!!! Those two tortured plants were ONLY being given the Botanicare Pro Bloom formula, no other nutrients were given. The silly kit I have now is to replace the Botanicare Pro Bloom and other ferts for outdoors. I'd dearly LOVE to find out which of these darn nutes i can not use and what they are really supposed to help, when needed. Like MagiCal. Mag and Csl should already be in other nutes. Any advice what I can change firs? There's the exact instructions I'm following. They were all fed today. :-( :

Here's what little I know or guess about these:
BC Grow and Bloom, great one flower one veg. Easy enough
BC Boost What is this for and why isn't included in the grow and bloom? It will run out first. Does it need replaced until grow and bloom are gone too? Ticks me off it is used in both grow and bloom in equal amounts. Means it will run out 1/2 way through.:-(
This ticks me off. The boost has Iron and Calcium plus more NPK. The bloom and grow have no Calcium or Iron in them. :-(
SUgar Daddy OK, I see sweeteners like molasses added near harvest. What the heck do i need this stuff for and why from veg to harvest? Why do my plants need extra Nitrogen in blooming, or protein, carbs, fat and oil? Is this a bunch of nonsense? It seems a popular product.
MagiCal: As a supplement for Mag and Cal deficiency, great. SO why do I have to feed it veg to harvest every time? What purpose? Isn't there Cal and Mag in the Grow and Bloom? It too will run out quickly. LMK so I can stop feeding it , or not. The BBK clones re screaming Calcium def. But they are fed this nute. It's impossible! (see why i'm frustrated!?) This is sneaky, the bloom and grow formulas have no Calcium in them (why?!). Only the "Boost" formula does.
Awesome Blossom
Why in the world would i ever need this?! Extra Phosphous and Potash for blooming.... is it helpful or needed? How about as a supplement to add when needed... My plants have low Phosphorus and Potassium. Only the 2 flowering plants have had this nute. Is it helpful for the others? Not doing a darn thing yet.'
Red and Green Thrive Alive It's another B vitamin, right? Why would I give this through the entire life cycle of the plant? Sure in heck don;t need red and green. Is it similar to Super Thrive, which I also have? Do I need it?
Root 66 Cute. It's just more B-1 vitamins like thrive, isn't it? Is it the same as "Root Juice?" (have this, almost out) Why do I need this and Thrive Alive? NPK 1-11-1 Whoopy thats in asll the other nutes too.

I can't blame the nutes for the nute deficiency problems as it started before they did and remains. I can blame if for the dead leaf tips I've just started getting on the under growth. Until I have 2 plants of the same stain and age ready (soon) I can't compare all of these darn things. I have 3 rooted White Skunk clones. I'll compare all nutes, just BCboost, Grow, and Bloom nutes, and a third to try something else. Otherwise, I'd gladly eliminate all the extras if anyone specifically looks as says what is and isn't needed.

Meanwhile, I look up Fox Farms. Aren't they just as pricy as the rest? Is this trio kit a good option and what Fox Farm lovers use themselves?

DroopyD and Bill:

Having lived in the EU for a decade, I know they don't use all of this BS in Holland or anywhere else. I've never seen most of this, if any, for sale in any fancy garden center or even a seed shop or tourist trap in Amsterdam. I'm sure a few hydro ones are there, but not soil. It was difficult to find a ready mixed fertilizer, just all the components and their own version of miracle grow and chemicals. Same with bug spray. The American culture , people will believe or try just about anything that is marketed well. I can't recall even seeing Dutch Master for sale. Have to think about that a bit.

The nutes online have charts of percentages, not on the bottles. No where have I found a list of ingredients for any nutes. You're right on about that. Yet we have to feed out plants mystery foods until some day they are required to list what's in it.

So what ARE people using? I need to get a fertlizer for outside. I;ll have MJ, flowers, herbs, and veggies too. I can't afford these nutes outside! Even Fax Farms is as high priced as the rest. I have some German Azalea fertilizer for acidic plants. There's a bit of time release granules left. They were not effective at all last year. I can't lug bags and bottles about either. It's hard enough to even so a walk through daily outside. Walking hurts. What in the world should I buy? HELP?!

Bill:
Where did you buy that FF trio? That';s a good price. I'd be willing to try and order right away for that price. LMK!! It's frickin $47 every where i see. There is no chance ever I would cough that up to try a product, thus why the starter kit I got was appealing. <sigh>

Do all of you use D Lime as a top dressing instead of PHing the water each time? I'm moving to well water soon. Hard to believe it could be any worse than city. LOL I'll know this week, Monday is the inspection.

The Age Old Liquid looks affordable! How long does a quart last? Which ones do you use? DO you have to add in any extras or is this a one for grow one from bloom covers it all? That would be a huge relief!!! Their feeding schedule makes it seem like you have to buy all of the products, not much diff than the stuff i have. What is really needed? https://www.planetnatural.com/planetnatural/images/age-old-feeding.pdf

My new house has 2.5 acres. An acre is a pasture with top soil like a dream. 20 years of horse manure makes a great fertilizer. I'll not even till, just lay out some plastic rolls and plant everything right in. I physically can't grow a big garden, so there is room to rotate a garden all about, at least until I put the pasture s to use. The MJ will be in containers until I know when light and weather patters. I need a well pump and piping to get the old well working enough to run hoses and lines all over the property. There's no water and no rain here most of the year. Only the containers (30 odd pots and such) and MJ get fed, unless I see a need. Would Age Old be the best option for me? The Dr Earth Powder is similar to the AO dry, mix in with the soil. I'll use it up on flowers and old recycled soil when I pot. PITA! Liquid is the only way for me to go, AND it has to be one that can be usable mixed for a few days. Dr. Earth rots in 24 hours if made into a liquid. Yuck, dog crap smells better in the house.

Yeah.. now almost 5am. I'm not even editing this... too tired. TY everyone for all of your great info. I'll get the lime ASAP!! ANy recs for a PH tester? Is Milwaukee the only affordable option? I'm now out of all testers, but the 3 soil meters that don't agree. LOL Time to Shop! I'll look here before I go. If you get any more ideas about what my plants need to get out of this rut, please let me know. They look worse each day!

Lusi

 

[burrr]

Brrr,
I've never heard of such a thing... hydro fixing bugs, no srpays??! What hydro nutes did you switch too.

My plants had fungas gnats and mites, The fungas gnats were gone after getting rid of soil, the mites took much longer.
I run my hydro with a silica supplement, makes leaves tough for mites to chew on.

It really appears you need to back off on all of the additives you are using.
start using 1/4 strength grow formula, and skip all the other stuff for a while.

 

[burrr]

sorry for repost, oops