Help! Seedling: Can't figure out what's wrong

[parrajara]

New to growing and I've been looking online for help, and all the information is there... but I just can't figure out what is wrong with my lady.

Strain: Photoperiod Feminized Green Crack Kush (Sativa)
About: I started germination around Nov 19. The plant was looking healthy (aside from a bit of yellowing leaves) up until 2 days ago.

Environment:

• There are two fans in there, they don't oscillate so I rotate the intensity they hit the plant at, and the angle throughout the days. I try to never make it direct contact, rather wind current bouncing off the tent walls (one fan is standard size and quite powerful)
• Growing in a 2x4x6 tent using a 150CFM fan, which I calculated and it's enough for my space
• Using 2 LED lamps (active heating, no heatsink) that are 400 actual Watts (200 each)
• I have a humidifier which manages to maintain humidity around 50%RH, although I have it set to 60.
• The temperature ranges between 75-85F on a daily basis with lights on, and I suspect around 75F with lights off (I close the windows to let my condo warm up when lights are off)

Growing Medium & Taking Care:

• Growing 2 plants in small (maybe 1 gallon or less) square plastic pots with holes in the bottom
• The pots have a plastic dish drying "mat" underneath to elevate them and provide more circulation
• I started my grow with about 30% perlite 70% happy frog
• Watering with spray mist around the perimeter - PH and mL not calculated (oops). However, the water in my house only has 17ppm.
• Lights 18hrs/Dark 6hrs

To simplify things, lady 1 is the healthy one and lady 2 is the unhealthy one/the one in question.

Lady 1 is in the exact same conditions but is not nearly in such bad shape, but I see it starting to follow the same trend as lady 2 - so I'd like to avoid that.

I couldn't tell if it was underwatering or overwatering, so last night I gave lady 2 a tiny bit of water to see if it would respond, but it didn't. I didn't give lady 1 any water to see if it would also respond in any way, and it only drooped a little more. I figured at this point it must be underwatering since I didn't give lady 1 any water and it still drooped, so I gave them both water today.

It's been about 5 hours since I watered them (lights have been on) and lady 2 is looking even more droopy. Lady 1 actually looks ok, which perplexes me even more.

I just lowered the lights from about 30" to 24" away from the plant, another desperate attempt to see if this helps.

I know the soil on lady 2 looks much more wet than the soil from lady 1, but that is because it was more droopy so I did give it more water than I gave lady 1.

Anyway, I really don't want this grow to go to waste so any help is extremely appreciated! If you require any more information, please let me know.

UPDATE: I notice the soil on lady 1 looking light brown again (dryer on the surface), but lady 2 is still dark brown (more wet) all throughout. This leads me to believe that perhaps it was overwatered... which if I am right, it means I just made things worse last night and today.

 

[ThePlug808]

I believe overwatering. I’m currently on my first grow and had the same symptoms. Just try waiting 3-4 days before watering them when they’re so little.

 

[JohnnieJC3]

A big pot and a small plant can go a week or more usually(depending on environment) in between watering. Also, your soil looks very woodsy... young plants need light soil to develop there root system. Decomposing plant matter can cause nitrogen deficiencies and could also be part of the problem.

 

[parrajara]

A big pot and a small plant can go a week or more usually(depending on environment) in between watering. Also, your soil looks very woodsy... young plants need light soil to develop there root system. Decomposing plant matter can cause nitrogen deficiencies and could also be part of the problem.

Thank you and @ThePlug808.

Do you think I should transplant it to new, dry soil? Or is that too much stress for the plant at this stage?

I also agree Johnnie, I was surpsied how woody it looked since Happy Frog is so highly recommended... Figured so many people use it that it's "normal" to have some wood chips/parts.

 

[JohnnieJC3]

Wow... that doesn't look like the Happy Frog I used to use(fungus gnats one time, maybe bad batch never again). I use HP Promix for my base and find a few twigs here and there, but that looks nothing like I remember HF and excessive.

 

[ThePlug808]

Thank you and @ThePlug808.

Do you think I should transplant it to new, dry soil? Or is that too much stress for the plant at this stage?

I also agree Johnnie, I was surpsied how woody it looked since Happy Frog is so highly recommended... Figured so many people use it that it's "normal" to have some wood chips/parts.

Yea the soil doesn’t look aerated enough. DONT transplant Yet just let it dry completely before anymore watering. Don’t be scared to even let dry to maybe a slight droop. Don’t make a habit out of that though. You just wanna make sure it’s completely used up all the water this one time. You only wanna transplant when the leaves reach the outer rim. Once that does happen try getting some Perlite and mixing 2-3 parts soil and 1-2 parts perlite in a 3-5 gallon pot upon transplant. Cheers

ps I’m attaching a pic of my soil so you kinda get a gist of what I’m getting at (I went 2 parts soil 2 parts perlite)

 

[013]

Hey Parra! Agree that’s got a lot of bark and decomposition going on, that does drain N from soil to host decomp. I’d scoop out as much mulch as possible without disturbing the root zone for now or at least rake it away from seedlings. When wood mulch is watered it releases small amounts of tannic acid, not good for small or young plants

 

[NuttyProfessor]

Good advice above , watering is a problem with young plants , try watering around the edges of the pot and not down the main stem
also make sure your drainage is not blocked , some small particles block the drain holes and can cause the water to set longer than needed and gives the plants wet feet

 

[parrajara]

Hey Parra! Agree that’s got a lot of bark and decomposition going on, that does drain N from soil to host decomp. I’d scoop out as much mulch as possible without disturbing the root zone for now or at least rake it away from seedlings. When wood mulch is watered it releases small amounts of tannic acid, not good for small or young plants

Always glad to see you in my threads my friend, thank you for always helping me out.

My ladies seem to be doing better now. I raised the lights back up to 30" and removed all big wood chips from the top layer of the soil.

Could it be that it was actually underwatered? My soil is feeling pretty dry already and yesterday I gave it more water than it ever had before... and 24hrs later its perking up again.

I attached a picture of lady 2, which you can see is looking much more perky. This confuses me a bit, since I watered the plant pretty heavily yesterday and now its reacting positively. It really only takes 1 day for an overwatered seedling in wet soil to recover? Or was it so underwatered that it took 24hrs for it to soak up all the water it needed to perk up?

I also gave lady 1 water yesterday (less than lady 2), and it looks pretty much the exact same - not much changed.

 

[JohnnieJC3]

Under watered and the plant will go limp, like badly. I've had this happen with outdoor veggie plants where I didn't catch it fast enough(intense heat). Water them and there back up in 10 minutes. Let the pot dry out until you see the plants fan leaves slightly wilt, and I mean barely. I would get a notebook or I use Dry Eraser sheets attached to my wall near my tent to keep track of wet/dry cycle, feedings... etc.

Are the holes in the bottom of the pot big enough to check with your finger?

 

[parrajara]

Under watered and the plant will go limp, like badly. I've had this happen with outdoor veggie plants where I didn't catch it fast enough(intense heat). Water them and there back up in 10 minutes. Let the pot dry out until you see the plants fan leaves slightly wilt, and I mean barely. I would get a notebook or I use Dry Eraser sheets attached to my wall near my tent to keep track of wet/dry cycle, feedings... etc.

Are the holes in the bottom of the pot big enough to check with your finger?

I'm going to start logging the cycles.

i can stick my pinky in the holes in the bottom, but I can't tell. Not experienced with assessing soils. It crumbles when I pull it out, so I guess its dry?

any idea why the tip of the leaves are curling down a bit?

 

[013]

Hey Parra! I’ve been hit and miss on timing lately, but so glad you took the bull by the horns and posted here again!! Yes could be underwater, it’s a fine line on small plant with bigger container. Just keep after it but lean more towards the dry side, work wet dry cycle hard in veg but keep soil moist in flower. You’ve got this but you also know good help is always here!!!

 

[parrajara]

Hey Parra! I’ve been hit and miss on timing lately, but so glad you took the bull by the horns and posted here again!! Yes could be underwater, it’s a fine line on small plant with bigger container. Just keep after it but lean more towards the dry side, work wet dry cycle hard in veg but keep soil moist in flower. You’ve got this but you also know good help is always here!!!

Not sure what is going on with the plants. They are about 23 days old and look tiny. Stunned growth and droopy probably overwatered.

The soil feels pretty dry and crumbly, and they look droopy, but I guess I am going to continue waiting for them to see if they perk up or continue drooping.

Is it a bad idea to feed it a bit of Rhizosphere and Mycorrhizal Fungi to help with root development?

 

[Marlin2]

New to growing and I've been looking online for help, and all the information is there... but I just can't figure out what is wrong with my lady.

Strain: Photoperiod Feminized Green Crack Kush (Sativa)
About: I started germination around Nov 19. The plant was looking healthy (aside from a bit of yellowing leaves) up until 2 days ago.

Environment:

• There are two fans in there, they don't oscillate so I rotate the intensity they hit the plant at, and the angle throughout the days. I try to never make it direct contact, rather wind current bouncing off the tent walls (one fan is standard size and quite powerful)
• Growing in a 2x4x6 tent using a 150CFM fan, which I calculated and it's enough for my space
• Using 2 LED lamps (active heating, no heatsink) that are 400 actual Watts (200 each)
• I have a humidifier which manages to maintain humidity around 50%RH, although I have it set to 60.
• The temperature ranges between 75-85F on a daily basis with lights on, and I suspect around 75F with lights off (I close the windows to let my condo warm up when lights are off)

Growing Medium & Taking Care:

• Growing 2 plants in small (maybe 1 gallon or less) square plastic pots with holes in the bottom
• The pots have a plastic dish drying "mat" underneath to elevate them and provide more circulation
• I started my grow with about 30% perlite 70% happy frog
• Watering with spray mist around the perimeter - PH and mL not calculated (oops). However, the water in my house only has 17ppm.
• Lights 18hrs/Dark 6hrs

To simplify things, lady 1 is the healthy one and lady 2 is the unhealthy one/the one in question.

Lady 1 is in the exact same conditions but is not nearly in such bad shape, but I see it starting to follow the same trend as lady 2 - so I'd like to avoid that.

I couldn't tell if it was underwatering or overwatering, so last night I gave lady 2 a tiny bit of water to see if it would respond, but it didn't. I didn't give lady 1 any water to see if it would also respond in any way, and it only drooped a little more. I figured at this point it must be underwatering since I didn't give lady 1 any water and it still drooped, so I gave them both water today.

It's been about 5 hours since I watered them (lights have been on) and lady 2 is looking even more droopy. Lady 1 actually looks ok, which perplexes me even more.

I just lowered the lights from about 30" to 24" away from the plant, another desperate attempt to see if this helps.

I know the soil on lady 2 looks much more wet than the soil from lady 1, but that is because it was more droopy so I did give it more water than I gave lady 1.

Anyway, I really don't want this grow to go to waste so any help is extremely appreciated! If you require any more information, please let me know.

UPDATE: I notice the soil on lady 1 looking light brown again (dryer on the surface), but lady 2 is still dark brown (more wet) all throughout. This leads me to believe that perhaps it was overwatered... which if I am right, it means I just made things worse last night and today.

Last time I used soil I didn't get a good result the soil ended up going to hard and roots couldn't breath properly so I change to rockwool flock with my new grow and the results are much better and I changed my nutrients and it has made a massive difference also I find with soil U get to many little flys in the tent I will never use soil again .hope U have se luck soon

 

[Emilya Green]

lol, growing in soil is easy, so long as you don't water too often. It is impossible to overwater your plant by giving too much water in one session... so saturate that soil when you water, to runoff.
Then, sit on your hands for several days, until your plant uses ALL of that water. Lift up the container, and if you can feel ANY water weight, it is NOT time to water yet. Run your plant through strong wet/dry cycles while in veg, and you will entice her to grow more roots. Water her every day and she will get lazy, and she will NOT grow a lot of roots. Overwatering by watering too often is the most common way to kill the plants and it is the most common way to create weak plants. Learning to water properly is very important when learning to grow a weed. Please read my watering article listed below in my signature lines. It has helped a lot of folks learn to water properly, and I think it will help you too. Good luck!

 

[parrajara]

lol, growing in soil is easy, so long as you don't water too often. It is impossible to overwater your plant by giving too much water in one session... so saturate that soil when you water, to runoff.
Then, sit on your hands for several days, until your plant uses ALL of that water. Lift up the container, and if you can feel ANY water weight, it is NOT time to water yet. Run your plant through strong wet/dry cycles while in veg, and you will entice her to grow more roots. Water her every day and she will get lazy, and she will NOT grow a lot of roots. Overwatering by watering too often is the most common way to kill the plants and it is the most common way to create weak plants. Learning to water properly is very important when learning to grow a weed. Please read my watering article listed below in my signature lines. It has helped a lot of folks learn to water properly, and I think it will help you too. Good luck!

I'm sure it's the watering, sbut I also think it may be the soil. Perhaps there isn't enough perlite in there to help aerate the soil and promote oxygen flow to the roots. My plants are tiny for being so old. I was doing research and everyone's plant it 10x bigger than mine by the time they are 3 weeks old...

Would it be better to start over again, or since they are photoperiods is there sense in trying to recover them still? They look relatively healthy, just really slow growing, like too slow.

What do you think if I transplant them into solo cups (which are smaller than the pots they are currently in)? I would continue using HF but with a lot more perlite.

Thank you for the links in your description, I will be reading through them to get a better understanding

 

[Emilya Green]

Perlite is not magical. Happy Frog already has plenty in it. Oxygen is pulled down to the roots because of the suction caused by the water table dropping inside the container as the plant uses the water. It has nothing to do with the perlite. All the perlite is doing is keeping the soil from clumping together and by its nature it holds a little bit of water and oxygen in its little holes, but here is the rub... there are no roots growing inside the perlite. It is soil that holds the water and nutrients.

My advice is to keep the HF the way it is and save the perlite for when you want to rejuvenate the soil to use again next time as it has started to compress from use. The problem you are having is the watering frequency... and what better time than now, with plants that are experiencing trouble, to learn and see the effects of a brand new watering method. You can save these plants, and with photoperiod plants you have not lost anything except some time. Once you get these roots going, this plant can get as large as any other... you just need to be patient and build those roots.

I would put the plants into solo cups, and then properly water them until you can get the plants to fill those cups with roots and to be able to drain all the water you can get that soil to hold, in 36 hours or less. Once the plant can reach this benchmark, then and only then, transplant it into the larger container.

 

[parrajara]

Perlite is not magical. Happy Frog already has plenty in it. Oxygen is pulled down to the roots because of the suction caused by the water table dropping inside the container as the plant uses the water. It has nothing to do with the perlite. All the perlite is doing is keeping the soil from clumping together and by its nature it holds a little bit of water and oxygen in its little holes, but here is the rub... there are no roots growing inside the perlite. It is soil that holds the water and nutrients.

My advice is to keep the HF the way it is and save the perlite for when you want to rejuvenate the soil to use again next time as it has started to compress from use. The problem you are having is the watering frequency... and what better time than now, with plants that are experiencing trouble, to learn and see the effects of a brand new watering method. You can save these plants, and with photoperiod plants you have not lost anything except some time. Once you get these roots going, this plant can get as large as any other... you just need to be patient and build those roots.

I would put the plants into solo cups, and then properly water them until you can get the plants to fill those cups with roots and to be able to drain all the water you can get that soil to hold, in 36 hours or less. Once the plant can reach this benchmark, then and only then, transplant it into the larger container.

Really solid advice, I really appreciate it! Everything you're saying shows you carefully read my issue, and your insight is so valuable. I think you're right, because I was watering everyday or every 2 days at most. I was keeping my watering cycles "light" so I wouldn't drown the roots.... I had no idea that this was worse than giving it a larger amount of water less frequently. I was giving less water more frequently. I had no idea how the oxygen got pulled down to the roots! So if I understand this part correctly, since I was watering them so lightly, the pressure of the water was minimal and thus the amount of oxygen being pulled down was also minimal? In order to give it more oxygen I need to give it more "water pressure"?

When I transplant them into solo cups, do you suggest I use new HF soil, or re-use the one currently in my container? Sorry for all the questions.

 

[Emilya Green]

Really solid advice, I really appreciate it! Everything you're saying shows you carefully read my issue, and your insight is so valuable. I think you're right, because I was watering everyday or every 2 days at most. I was keeping my watering cycles "light" so I wouldn't drown the roots.... I had no idea that this was worse than giving it a larger amount of water less frequently. I was giving less water more frequently. I had no idea how the oxygen got pulled down to the roots! So if I understand this part correctly, since I was watering them so lightly, the pressure of the water was minimal and thus the amount of oxygen being pulled down was also minimal? In order to give it more oxygen I need to give it more "water pressure"?

When I transplant them into solo cups, do you suggest I use new HF soil, or re-use the one currently in my container? Sorry for all the questions.

You would not have worn out the soil so far, so it would be fine to reuse it... just less of it. The reason we start in small containers is not just so that we can get a handle on the wet/dry cycle, but also so we can actually restrict the size and force the roots to concentrate in that smaller area in order to develop a root ball.

I think you sort of have the concept of the water table... its not so much the water pressure that is pulling down the oxygen as suction. imagine the top of the lake of water in the container, where gravity is trying to pull all the water to the bottom. As the plant uses water, the top of that lake, being perfectly sealed to the sides of the container all around, acts like a perfect diaphragm, sucking air down from the surface as that water table falls. So its not the pressure, or the weight of the water that is doing it, it is the actual shape of the column of water in the container that is doing the magic.

 

[parrajara]

You would not have worn out the soil so far, so it would be fine to reuse it... just less of it. The reason we start in small containers is not just so that we can get a handle on the wet/dry cycle, but also so we can actually restrict the size and force the roots to concentrate in that smaller area in order to develop a root ball.

I think you sort of have the concept of the water table... its not so much the water pressure that is pulling down the oxygen as suction. imagine the top of the lake of water in the container, where gravity is trying to pull all the water to the bottom. As the plant uses water, the top of that lake, being perfectly sealed to the sides of the container all around, acts like a perfect diaphragm, sucking air down from the surface as that water table falls. So its not the pressure, or the weight of the water that is doing it, it is the actual shape of the column of water in the container that is doing the magic.

Thank you! Just read your thread on watering. Will try to follow along and see how it all goes.