Leaf Lesions: Suggestions Please

[angelass]

Have had multiple grows with the same problem creeping up during flower. FYI, this is my only Sativa dom experience. No problems in veg, whether short or long. Currently 2 plants in pre-flower with problem beginning to arise. Generalized synopsis – strong veg, first during flowering lime green new growth, then lesions start between veins (see photos). These plants seem to be touchy - nute/heat/light sensitive and very thirsty.

• Utopia Haze Fem – Barnies Farm
• Sativa Dom Hybrid ~?80/20
• Soil – Organic base, supplement with chem nutes as needed. Now 7 gal pots
• 7 week veg, week 1 flip
• Good environment maintained (some heat spikes) with CO2 @~1200 and attempting to run a fairly high VPD.
• Good feed & soil ph. Runoff constantly hi @ ~ 7.5ph, 2.5ec
• No other pest problem noticed.
• Have run 4 different Indica dom hybrids in the same room concurrently in the past – all without problems.

All these Utopia Haze plants were clones from original seed purchased – could this be a plant specific tendency?
What’s the likely problem/problems and potential solutions?

 

[MrSauga]

Good feed & soil ph. Runoff constantly hi @ ~ 7.5ph, 2.5ec

Hi there,
that runoff seems awfully high for a pH reading. What are you pHing the nutes at?

 

[Emilya Green]

Hi Angel... welcome to the group! You say good nutes, but I would like to hear just how good... which line are you running, and are you following the directions? Assuming that you are giving nutes one time, water the next... are you adjusting the water pH also, and to what value?
Most importantly, your description and pictures lack one piece of vital info... where on the plant is this occurring? I am assuming from your description of the symptoms that this is happening in the new growth only or if you are seeing other symptoms down below too.

 

[angelass]

Thanks Emi & Sauga –

Lotsa assumptions in my earlier recap. I’ll try to answer you’re questions more specifically….

• Yep hi nums with runoff. But it’s always been the case in my setup with minimal visible affects. I've been unsuccessful in flushing it down & tend to not sweat it.
• When runoff starts getting hot (usually during flower), I flush but never can bring the nums down. All future feeds ph’d at low range 6.0 – 6.3. Good news is Soil ph never seems to pop past ~6.8.
• Soil foundation FF Ocean forest ~50% supplemented with perlite, vermiculite, castings, bone meal, mush compost, azomite, diatomatous earth and dolimetic lime. A very light mix
• 2 uppots durin veg, 3 then 7 gal. each with beneficials & humic supps.
• Tap water… ~ .1ec , ~8ph (adjusted as necessary with baking soda –or- citric acid).
• “Good nutes”… FF soil nutes (Trio + OpenSes, BeastieBl, ChaChing). I loosely follow their suggested flower schedule, but shoot for ~ 40 – 70% rates (~2.5 ec max).
• Supplement with Silicone, Cal/mag, Epsom as deemed needed.
• Yes – always ph water… normally ~6.5-6.8 but shoot lower, ~6-6.3 when runoff heats up.
• Mobile/immobile – newest lime green ok, no lesions. Oldest I don’t know, all been trimmed fairly hard & lollipopped, no lesions notices prior. If I recall correctly, seems to manifest on older leaves then progress up the plant throughout pre, early & mid flower.
• Other symptoms - plants seem to be relatively sensitive to nutes & light & continually thirsty while watering to runoff ~every other day throughout flower.
• Interveinal leaf lesions seem to start on edges and tips then progress inward. I've not allowed the lesion to progress through leaf death since I'm continually thinning effected leaves.

THANKS

 

[MrSauga]

you bet...Emilya can assist you much better so I'll just listen in.

 

[FelipeBlu]

From your description and photos, it appears to be magnesium def (rusty lesions in interveinal areas of older leaves). This is quite common with many strains in beginning flower/stretch. Upping the CalMag a bit is probably a good first aid.

I was getting ready to suggest that your tap water might have high alkalinity, which would cause your substrate pH to rise over time. But you included

Tap water… ~ .1ec

which indicates otherwise. So I’m going to go with the need for more CalMag.

 

[Emilya Green]

I did consider magnesium, but you are already giving calmag... and this just looks to be more of a general problem to me. I have a theory and a reason...
I believe this is an Iron deficiency... which can also lead to other problems.
I believe that it has to do with pH. FFOF is already heavily buffered to be on the upper end of the soil pH range when dry, or at least it is supposed to be. You have also added a large amount of dolomite, which will further enhance this buffering... which of course explains your consistent high pH runoff.
Because of the double buffering, your drift rate after watering at 6.3 pH has to be quite rapid, and the amount of time that the pH of your water table remains on the low end of the scale, where Iron is most mobile, is very short. It is my belief that with your hyper buffered soil you may have to adjust your pH a little lower so as to compensate for this rapid drift and keep the mix in the low end of the range for a bit longer... long enough to get that Iron into the plant.
It is just a theory... but my prior experience with the already rapid drift rate of FFOF, induced me to set my pH to the low low end, at 6.1 or 6.2, from mid to late flower when I ran grows very similar to yours.
I will also remind that with the FF trio and solubles, your baking soda and your epsom, your need for regular flushing has been compounded. Definitely follow the FF recommendations to the letter.

 

[angelass]

Thanks Felipe. I was thinking along the same lines but have had limited success in the battle. I've been upping the cal/mag while decreasing my ec on these latest plants. This grow seems a tad better but I'm disturbed that I've not beat it! Good news is that this doesn't seem to be detrimental during late flower (when most leaves are toasty then anyway).

 

[Emilya Green]

Oh, and I forgot to address that you believed your plants to be extremely thirsty. This is a very good thing! I try to push my plants as I head into flower to be able to take water every day or two. Congratulations! You developed some healthy roots in veg with your successive uppotting and proper watering... now it is time to use those roots to their full advantage!

 

[angelass]

I did consider magnesium, but you are already giving calmag... and this just looks to be more of a general problem to me. I have a theory and a reason...
I believe this is an Iron deficiency....
I will also remind that with the FF trio and solubles, your baking soda and your epsom, your need for regular flushing has been compounded. Definitely follow the FF recommendations to the letter.

WOW - gotta luv what a little livin can do... Emi, your experience shines! I was going to try a tad a chelated iron. Your explaination is pretty darn convincing - FYI, I've not followed th FF flushing schedule. No preventative flushes, only done so after problems arise. I will change by habits.

The Indica dom hybrids I've previously grown never gave me this challenge with FF products. My first Sativa, could this be one of the subtle grow differences of Sativa's? Won't be doing another run of this haze for a while, will provide feedback if I geta rebound on this run. THANKS again.

 

[Emilya Green]

WOW - gotta luv what a little livin can do... Emi, your experience shines! I was going to try a tad a chelated iron. Your explaination is pretty darn convincing - FYI, I've not followed th FF flushing schedule. No preventative flushes, only done so after problems arise. I will change by habits.

The Indica dom hybrids I've previously grown never gave me this challenge with FF products. My first Sativa, could this be one of the subtle grow differences of Sativa's? Won't be doing another run of this haze for a while, will provide feedback if I geta rebound on this run. THANKS again.

Keep at it... this so far is a minor problem. It is always a problem with the long running sativas... who gives out first, you, the plants or the soil. I like the iron supplement idea... that will probably get you back out of the problem zone... that and going a bit lower with the pH.

 

[angelass]

Hey Emi one more quickie while I have your ear, off subject but in line with your namesake "sensimilla"

After a nearly 45 year hiatus/total abstinence, I'm fairly new to this. Every single run of mine (~5 with between 4-9 plants each), seems OK on the vine.... regular, close inspections with any observable nanners plucked. Unfortunately, after trim & upon use, a few seeds inevitably pop up. Very, very few here and there - maybe 1 seed out of every 30+ grinder runs. Is this expected and considered acceptable as "top shelf sensi" today. I'm entirely out of the game and the people I'm sharing with really enjoy my hobby.

 

[Emilya Green]

Hey Emi one more quickie while I have your ear, off subject but in line with your namesake "sensimilla"

After a nearly 45 year hiatus/total abstinence, I'm fairly new to this. Every single run of mine (~5 with between 4-9 plants each), seems OK on the vine.... regular, close inspections with any observable nanners plucked. Unfortunately, after trim & upon use, a few seeds inevitably pop up. Very, very few here and there - maybe 1 seed out of every 30+ grinder runs. Is this expected and considered acceptable as "top shelf sensi" today. I'm entirely out of the game and the people I'm sharing with really enjoy my hobby.

Well, the fact that you had observable nanners pretty much explains where they came from, and no, this would not be top shelf sensi if it had any predictable seeds. For most of us though, what we can grow is so much better than can be bought that we don't worry too much if it is top shelf or not. I have smoked some perfectly acceptable seeded pot here in my own gardens.
Sometimes seeds come from overgrowing too... and this would not affect the quality in the same way as if it had been pollinated.

 

[FelipeBlu]

How’s it growing Angel?

 

[angelass]

Currently running all watering to runoff @ ~6.1ph & light feeds @ ~60% FF rates. Upped my cal-mag rates & added epsom salt to feeds, no chelated iron yet. Lesions seem to be minimized but new growth still lime green & clawed. Temps are a tad high, having challenges controlling.
I believe I may have discovered why the hi ph/ec of runoff - my measurements may be off/misleading. All my flowering is done on rolling tables with built in drip pans. Those drip pans never get entirely cleaned out entirely and sanitized, runoff is vacuumed up & remnants stay in the pan and accumulate. I will try to catch/measure the runoff directly from planters prior to hitting the drain pan to see if measurements differ.

Now 2 more concerns - remember this is my first sativa. All the girls will be without babysitting / monitoring for an entire week (minimally semi-automated).

• I've rigged a minimal watering system, but the only water source is a very hi ph (dehumidifier water @ ~8 - 8.5). Thoughts/ramifications on watering with that hi ph for a week???
• Have one UH about ready to chop - going on flower week 12 (including pre-flower)! Still no amber, but very milky & beginning to foxtail. Trichs seem to not have changed much over the past ~2 weeks. Do Sativa's ever turn amber? Should I chop and hang prior or upon return??

Sorry, no photos - currently unable. Thanks.

 

[Emilya Green]

some sativas go 14 weeks or longer... be patient. I would not chop until you see amber.. they do eventually have to turn. Foxtailing is a confusing term, but it oftentimes is the method that the plant uses to expand out the bud. True foxtailing is a sight to behold, and when it happens you will know you have a problem with that light airy bud. It sounds to me like you are in the last 2 weeks of budswell.
Regarding the high pH water... I would not take the risk. At that pH your nutes will be practically useless.
Regarding the clawing and light green... sounds like restricted roots since you are feeding only at 60% and shouldnt be experiencing over feeding... when is the last time you flushed with 3x the container size of water?

 

[angelass]

• I will likely wait to chop, will monitor trich progression and decide last minute.
• "Foxtailing... last 2 weeks of budswell." The foxtailing is not aggressive/severe ... new calyx's protruding that look like little pimples budding out of the formally smooth bud. More fresh white pistles too. That new growth is not long/stringy with no more leaves.
• "Regarding the high pH water... I would not take the risk. At that pH your nutes will be practically useless." The rigged watering system is intended to keep minimal soil moisture as opposed to having the soil totally dry for ~4 days and empty my dehumids. Most the girls will be ~3-4 week flower (besides my one Haze in final swell). Please reiterate your advice Emi... Let them go Bone Dry for ~4 days ...vs... a ongoing 8ph light waterings?.?.?.
• "Regarding the clawing and light green... 3x the container size of water?" Flushed those ~ week ago. Leaf lesions are considerably better, new foliage a bit greener but clawing persists and seemingly getting worse. Have had some heat challenges BUT the Kush's in the room are all OK, not visually affected. FYI - I've had this same issue with 2 previous runs... I am seeing new foliage color improvement BUT can't seem to identify cause & minimize the claw

First time away with no sitters for a week - like the first time leaving your kids alone at home while you vacation. Hopefully I'll have better luck with the garden than I did with the kids!

THANKS again

 

[Emilya Green]

Yes, you are describing bud swell, that last two week period, much like the earlier stretch, when the buds build up to almost twice their size. A true foxtail will swirl and extend out an inch or two from the center mass and will look ridiculous. It will look to be airy and soft, not tight and compact like you are seeing now.
another cause of the clawing can be from being rootbound. Also, if you have been heavily feeding, flushing weeks ago may need to be redone. Salts can build up quickly. Whatever the problem is, it has something to do with the roots.
You are right, while in flower going bone dry is not desirable and just keeping them moist would be better than not. When you get back, be sure to give them a proper watering at the correct pH and I would not even worry about trying to also apply nutes with the emergency water while you are gone.

 

[angelass]

Thanks again!! FYI - I've read, read, read & continue to trial & review data BUT you guys are my only source (besides the plants) for real time feed back. For unsaid reasons I don't share any of this with "real people" - call me paranoid, I'll call it careful. I just don't have the subversive "contacts" I had ~40 years ago

Will keep you posted.

 

[angelass]

Update after a week away - All's Good!

• Dehumid/ hi ph runoff irrigation rig worked well.
• Yep, that was final swell on the Haze. Just chopped it, ~10% amber @ 12-13 weeks .
• The new Hazes (~4 week flower) looking much better than previous rounds. Combo of flush, juiced up cal/mag & epsom salt seems to minimized leaf lesions. Still clawing though.

Thanks for the help guys n gals