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- #61
Skybound
Well-Known Member
Damn, I just noticed the concentration of heavy metals in Megacrop. I am even more displeased with that formulation than I was before.
Making Your Own Nutrient Concentrates
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The default ‘purity level’ is 100, so that hasn’t cause me trouble. I tried to reverse engineer some of the results you calculated for me in the past using some of my nutes here-
Triple Cheese, Pineapple Chunk, Homemade Nutes, Vero29 COBs (its post 177 if this link insists on being screwy)
I failed to come up with the same numbers. So clearly I’m entering something wrong. From looking at your pic for Flora Micro below, I’m guessing it may be the P and K drop down options that are screwing me up. Micro lists its K level as 1. You have it as 0.8. Looks like maybe the way to enter the P and K is to type in the percentage as listed on the bottle, then select the drop down option after that (not before) whereupon it recalculates the value? If that makes sense to you. Sorry to be a pain in the ass. Thanks.
Triple Cheese, Pineapple Chunk, Homemade Nutes, Vero29 COBs (its post 177 if this link insists on being screwy)
I failed to come up with the same numbers. So clearly I’m entering something wrong. From looking at your pic for Flora Micro below, I’m guessing it may be the P and K drop down options that are screwing me up. Micro lists its K level as 1. You have it as 0.8. Looks like maybe the way to enter the P and K is to type in the percentage as listed on the bottle, then select the drop down option after that (not before) whereupon it recalculates the value? If that makes sense to you. Sorry to be a pain in the ass. Thanks.
P and K, are usually listed as either P2O5, or K20 and you'll want to select each accordingly in their drop down menus.... P and K, undergo a conversion factor which multiplies each by a known decimal to derive at available P and available K in the final recipe, otherwise the app will assume that other sources of each were used and will not be immediately available and will greatly affect the Result.
Edit - As a reference point, I'll include a screenshot of GH Flora Micro. Please note that the K has already been converted from K2O.
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- #63
Skybound
Well-Known Member
One of the most popular stock solution is also the base ingredient for all Bloom boosters as well as most bloom nutes is called "Potassium Monobasic Phosphate" aka Monopotassium Phosphate aka MKP, but it's one of the stock solutions in the app. It's npk percentages are 0-52-34, but once those percentages are entered and saved, you'll get 2 prompts when saving the solution with P2O5 and K2O ssaying that each will be converted. This is because each element is further reduced in the math to account for some chemical reactions. For the record P2O5 is multiplied by .44 to equal P and K2O is multiplied by .83 to equal K. I don't pretend to know why that is, but it's something chemists or farmers figure out before the likes of us. So when you see on the bottles K listed as K2O, you have to use the drop down menus.
In THIS post, you shared a pic of a nute bottle that has P2O5 at 4% (drop down menu) and K20 listed as 5% (drop down menu). You then click Update or Save and you'll get 2 prompts alerting you that your P2O5 will be converted, and K2O is converted. The same will occur when you formulate something wil SiO2.
In THIS post, you shared a pic of a nute bottle that has P2O5 at 4% (drop down menu) and K20 listed as 5% (drop down menu). You then click Update or Save and you'll get 2 prompts alerting you that your P2O5 will be converted, and K2O is converted. The same will occur when you formulate something wil SiO2.
Hmm yeah - I don’t get any prompts like that when I hit update. For that nutrient you mention- if I enter P as 4 and K as 5, then selecting P2O5 and K20 respectively from the drop down menus, it temporarily changes the numbers display to 9.166 and 6.024 respectively. But next time I visit the page for this substance it’s displaying P as 4 and K as 5 again. Maybe that’s what it’s supposed to do I don’t know.
My main concern here is I can’t make my P and K levels line up with your results and make any sense.
When I reverse your results and enter my nutes by the ml everything lines up except P and K. .
Since my calculations don’t match yours using the same nutrients- I can’t trust any of the info. Not sure where else to look, so I thought maybe that conversion factor might be the culprit.
- your results vs mine.
For shit-n-giggles, I targeted the macros + Ca & Mg to what I mix and this is the output. Note - Mass (g) now directly translates to ml/Gal (I also use gals) so 11.5 ml of CalMag etc.
My results when I input the nutrients by weight and reverse your results.
My NPK levels of the substances are entered as I’ve listed them under ‘formula’ at the top.
Sorry...
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- #65
Skybound
Well-Known Member
No worries man, this is why I quit trying to figure the fuckin app out at least five other times before I finally grasped what was happening. When you create the custom solution from scratch, you first change the drop down menus to P2O5 or K2O before entering in the respective element. I forgot that I had yours in memory, so you can just copy it if ya want.
Thanks so much!
Ok everything seems to match now. Phew. I better take a break from this now before I start to forget how much fun I’m having.
Ok everything seems to match now. Phew. I better take a break from this now before I start to forget how much fun I’m having.
Damn now I’m stuck trying to juggle these nutrient mixes into decent levels.
Do you use epsom salts for magnesium much? I don’t - but the one thing I’ve noticed about it is that it’s very strong. I regularly hear people recommend using it at 5ml/gallon, which by my meter is about 400 TDS or roughly ten times what you’d want. Apparently plants don’t mind high magnesium cause I never heard anyone screaming.
Do you use epsom salts for magnesium much? I don’t - but the one thing I’ve noticed about it is that it’s very strong. I regularly hear people recommend using it at 5ml/gallon, which by my meter is about 400 TDS or roughly ten times what you’d want. Apparently plants don’t mind high magnesium cause I never heard anyone screaming.
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- #68
Skybound
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ml/Gal is vol per volume and does not express weight of the stock material ... magnesium sulfate. Epsom salt, in conjunction with magnesium nitrate during veg and stretch is how I get my mag, but mid and late bloom it's only Epsom salt. My mid bloom Epsom use is 2.28 grms per gallon, but the way I mix, that then translates to 22.8ml/Gal. So while I/we/you understood dosage as ml/Gal, the only accurate way to measure that is grams/Gal.
Ok sure I understand that, and I do have a decent scale or two around.
That seems insanely high based on what my EC meter tells me, (5 ml = 400+ TDS) but I trust you’ve done your homework.
Edit- Oh I see it’s in the ‘substances’ list -as magnesium sulfate heptahydrate.
Another question- Even though none of my bottles seem to list sulphur on the ingredients and at this point I have no listed source of it- a bunch of these nutrients are sulfates- epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) included. Does this mean the plants are getting some sulphur anyway?
That seems insanely high based on what my EC meter tells me, (5 ml = 400+ TDS) but I trust you’ve done your homework.
Edit- Oh I see it’s in the ‘substances’ list -as magnesium sulfate heptahydrate.
Another question- Even though none of my bottles seem to list sulphur on the ingredients and at this point I have no listed source of it- a bunch of these nutrients are sulfates- epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) included. Does this mean the plants are getting some sulphur anyway?
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- #70
Skybound
Well-Known Member
how many grams are in that 5ml? w/o knowing, it's impossible to know what amount is equally 400 tds. If your are talking about one of your bottled nutes, you need to put the formula in Hydro Buddy, then set the mass weight to 5 grams (to rep ml), then set it to calculate your volume (1 gallon?) and it will tell you how much ppm of Mag you're getting from that bottle @ 5ml/Gal. I bet it's more along the lines of 40ppm of Mg, not 400, so you likely forgot to delete a zero or something.
Regarding the sulfate question, if the components used to make the solution are primarily made from sulfate, then yes you are getting good sulfur content. Not in bottled nutes, but certain dry blends use metallic sulfates as micros, but when making nutrient concentrates, metallic metals would not stay in solution for more than a couple hours at those concentrations w/o rapidly oxidizing and falling out of suspension. I learned that one the hard way too. But all bottled micros are chelated to keep everything apart from everything else. But if your nutes are mostly made with sulfates, I bet you're getting a low average of sulfur.
For reference, when I used GH 3 part, plus using all the supplements and the sweetener, I was getting about 40ppm of sulfur. GH at full strength I believe tops out at 50ppm of sulfur. Sulfur deficiency is definitely a thing, so if you had it, I'm sure you would have found out by now.
Ok thanks a lot Skybound. I’ve come up with a rough blend now based on one of your Mid Bloom recommendations, and will continue to mess around with this. I think I may start the problem P Chunk strain on this blend first and see if it does any better.
I wouldn’t normally trust some unknown program to tell me what I should be feeding my plants, but I have to assume that it’s been working for you, and the people on the other forums you mentioned.
-It was straight Epsom salts I measured at around 400 tds for 5 ml of them. Using my EC meter. I’ll re-measure that today. I’m also using a different brand of Epsom salts now than I had for that particular test, FWIW.
The Epsom salts I’m using now measure at roughly .9 grams per ml. Rough is all I need for the moment and can fine tune later
Almost done polluting this thread -cheers.
I wouldn’t normally trust some unknown program to tell me what I should be feeding my plants, but I have to assume that it’s been working for you, and the people on the other forums you mentioned.
-It was straight Epsom salts I measured at around 400 tds for 5 ml of them. Using my EC meter. I’ll re-measure that today. I’m also using a different brand of Epsom salts now than I had for that particular test, FWIW.
The Epsom salts I’m using now measure at roughly .9 grams per ml. Rough is all I need for the moment and can fine tune later
Almost done polluting this thread -cheers.
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- #72
Skybound
Well-Known Member
ml is a volumetric measure and is used for liquids. Grams is a weight measure and is used for solids. Epsom salt is a solid. To measure a solid with volume can be done, but will never represent an accurate measure due to the surface area of the solid. Like, it is pressed together in one clump, or pressed together in granules? Some materials are just grains of salt whereas others are pulverized to powders, so if you measured 5ml of each of these solids in their various forms, the weights will all be different. Also, I don't think different brands of salts matter. The chemical comp will always be the same. All MKP is 0-52-34, all Epsom is 9.8%Mg - 12.8%S. This is why their math is well defined and why the nutrient hustle is such a joke (on we the users). I just saw a thread today that made me consider the cost of making Terpenator. To make, about $10 for 10 gallons. How much does it cost for a gallon of Terp from a hydro shop? Almost $80. In my best Vince Vaugn impersonation ....WWWWWWWHHhhattttt???..........................
If you want a more accurate reading of your Epsom, weigh out 1 gram even, toss it in a near zero ppm gallon of water and shake it up, then test with your EC pen. Then do the same test in Hydro Buddy to see wht the EC/PPM differences are. FYI, your meter and the app will NEVER agree about the EC. The app can only calculate the elemental properties and not the inert materials which still influence our meters.
If you want a more accurate reading of your Epsom, weigh out 1 gram even, toss it in a near zero ppm gallon of water and shake it up, then test with your EC pen. Then do the same test in Hydro Buddy to see wht the EC/PPM differences are. FYI, your meter and the app will NEVER agree about the EC. The app can only calculate the elemental properties and not the inert materials which still influence our meters.
Yep. We are actually on the same page here even if it doesn’t sound like it.
I was off doing just that to show you what I meant.
.
I realize ml/gallon is a crude measurement at best. The reason I mentioned 5ml per gallon of Epsom salts was in the context of it being constantly recommended at that ratio, year after year, on this forum and elsewhere, to fix magnesium deficiency issues. Whereas to me it seems too high.
Here’s what I mean.
One gallon of my rain water. Ignore the PH reading - it actually settled at 5.7 after a half minute.
5ml of Epsom salts
Outcome
I was off doing just that to show you what I meant.
.
I realize ml/gallon is a crude measurement at best. The reason I mentioned 5ml per gallon of Epsom salts was in the context of it being constantly recommended at that ratio, year after year, on this forum and elsewhere, to fix magnesium deficiency issues. Whereas to me it seems too high.
Here’s what I mean.
One gallon of my rain water. Ignore the PH reading - it actually settled at 5.7 after a half minute.
5ml of Epsom salts
Outcome
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- #74
Skybound
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I never tried to verify, but that sounds about right. If Epsom is 9.8% magnesium and 12.8% sulfur, that's a totoal of 22.6% leaving what, 77.4% unaccounted for? Also, my current Epsom dose is 2.3 grams per gallon, so you have about exactly twice my dose.
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- #76
Skybound
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Making concentrates at 1 gram per 10ml of volume (1/2 the strength brands mix to), I measure out 189.27 grams (rounded to 189.3) of Monopotassium Phosphate (MKP) to mix up enough to fill a half gallon jug. I first pour a cup of RO from the jug to make room for the salts. Pour in the salts and use the cup of RO to wash residual salts from the salt cups. Put the lid on and shake till all the salts dissolve. Once that's done simply fill the jug back up with the cup of RO. The same process an weight apply to all macro nutrient complexes such as Calcium Nitrate, Magnesium Nitrate, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Sulfate, Potassium Silicate.
Here is a screenshot of what I’m aspiring to for a mid flowering mix. It’s based on a mix you posted earlier in the thread. I thought I got very close using four of the bottles on my shelf.
I’m sort of ignoring the micros for now and thought I’d tweak those more later.
I’m sort of ignoring the micros for now and thought I’d tweak those more later.
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- #78
Skybound
Well-Known Member
I aint gonna lie, your results look pretty fuckin good IMO, a lot closer than I was getting with Jack's with or w/o micros. Unless you have individual micros, it would be pointless to worry about what they are as you won't be able to change anything except maybe more of all or less of all, but the ratios remain constant. If you can get up to 30 more K, 20 more Ca and maybe 5 more P, that would be about half way from where you're now at vs where I went. I believe my numbers were closer to ideal when my K was 180, Ca 110, and P was still 65 and slightly deficient.
Like I said in your thread though, I have a strong inward desire to lower my EC back down to where you now are and put more emphasis on foliar spraying. When comparing Doc's contents against continued research, there's pretty only one conclusion one would likely arrive at. Remember, I'm not trying to copy that style as to do so would go completely against hydro methods of delivery and sustainability etc, but to pursue truly perfect elemental synergy in the feed, we can't not produce higher brix as higher brix is just a side effect of extremely healthy cannabis/produce, and just knowing your brix levels would be a way of confirming if your feed is in that zone or not. I was always my intent to nudge each element in whatever direction plant language tells me, like how you're wanting to chase out your PC P def. Once all defs are gone and you have perfectly green plants like Mr Krip's or Sticky's JH, Woody's Strawberry Amnesia. That's where I'm trying to go anyways. Not reddish stems, waxy leaves of perfectly green hues, just the right amount of chlorophyll and no toxicities, buds will be angelic.
Like I said in your thread though, I have a strong inward desire to lower my EC back down to where you now are and put more emphasis on foliar spraying. When comparing Doc's contents against continued research, there's pretty only one conclusion one would likely arrive at. Remember, I'm not trying to copy that style as to do so would go completely against hydro methods of delivery and sustainability etc, but to pursue truly perfect elemental synergy in the feed, we can't not produce higher brix as higher brix is just a side effect of extremely healthy cannabis/produce, and just knowing your brix levels would be a way of confirming if your feed is in that zone or not. I was always my intent to nudge each element in whatever direction plant language tells me, like how you're wanting to chase out your PC P def. Once all defs are gone and you have perfectly green plants like Mr Krip's or Sticky's JH, Woody's Strawberry Amnesia. That's where I'm trying to go anyways. Not reddish stems, waxy leaves of perfectly green hues, just the right amount of chlorophyll and no toxicities, buds will be angelic.
Yeah that makes total sense. Having Hydro Buddy is a huge step forward for me because there was absolutely no way I could fix my plants before. Trying to get a good nutrient mix was like throwing darts with a blindfold on. I’m not anywhere close to your current quest for perfection. At this point I’d be very happy to have them looking 95% good and I’ll worry about the fine tuning later.
Here is the mix I accidently gave some of them this week after missing a decimal place. The P Chunk was not happy with this one but last I looked the rest seemed ok. I’m going to inspect them again closely now that I caught the screwup.
Here is the mix I accidently gave some of them this week after missing a decimal place. The P Chunk was not happy with this one but last I looked the rest seemed ok. I’m going to inspect them again closely now that I caught the screwup.
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- #80
Skybound
Well-Known Member
That's the beauty about HB! When I find what I'm looking for, I can post my elemental targets and anybody can dial in their HB with their materials and get as close as possible to said targets and achieve probably identical results.
I promote buying into salts because you get WAY more control than just having HB for a small fraction of the cost of your favorite line of nutes, which then frees up your budget to collect organic products to be used in the same way, but dry salts isn't a prerequisite and we now have a common language that we can communicate across brands and feed charts which IMO, in this community collective knowledge base, is the real value. We can help each opther in trying new things, and learn from each other's experiences when trying different ratios and the like. Who knows, maybe a couple more people will learn to use HB and get involved to benefit from or contribute to.
