CFL vs HPS Question

Thanks for the info Graytail, like I stated, I wasn't sure which way to go at first. I checked into just CFLs, then HID & LEDs. I think based on what I have read here in the forums, people are getting excellent results with LEDs, but the initial start up is substantial. The CFLs are getting better & better, but as far as I can see, the HIDs are still the ones that pack the punch. Once the LED technology becomes more advanced and the Chinese finally get out of the market or stop dumping cheap ass equipment on the market, the prices will come down on the "Real Quality LEDs". Until then, I will settle on my compromise.
 
600w CFL = up to 40,000 lumens

400w HPS = up to 55,000 lumens

600w HPS = up to 95,000 lumens

they're in different leagues.

don't be fooled by being able to get the bulbs really close to the plants, because whilst they're close to one bud, they're a fair bit away from all of the others, which is why penetration is a absolutely key; I learned this from experience...
 
I still don't have this clear in my mind.

yes, LED's may be the future. for me right now, they are too expensive and Chinese, which nobody recommends. they don't figure into my equation.

there are lots of charts out there which show the drop of lumens over distance. I don't have one bookmarked, so I can't include it here.
I'd bet somebody will. the closest I can run my 400W HPS is about 12-14" which means I've already suffered a drop in lumens. CFL's, by contrast, can be run inches from the buds so the effective lumens ought to be superior. please correct me where I go wrong.

my MH only puts out 6,000K which is below the recommended 6,500-6,700K. the CFL's hit that mark.

with all the LST I do so that all of the buds are at the top of my canopy, where else does the light need to penetrate?

this is purely anecdotal but I've tried MH, HPS and my original 250W effective/80W actual CFL's and through vegetative, I've found the CFL's the best, so far. in reality, most people say HPS is inferior for vegetative but superior for flowering. I'm wondering if the HPS thing is simply old thinking that most of us refuse to give up on.

my old supplier of those 250W CFL's is no longer carrying them but I have this source with 550W effective/110W actual bulbs. all of them have a built in cooling base but do not fit in your standard light socket. they require mogul sockets, if anybody wanted to know. these are equivalent in size to the MH/HPS sockets.

I'm certain I can fit three of these bulbs with hoods into my grow space, so I'd get 1,650W effective (330W actual) into the same space I now run a single 400W HPS/MH. and the fact that I can run them inches from the plants sounds to me like I ought to get better penetration than the HPS/MH, and I'm not clear why I'd want to get light below the buds. but to compensate for that theory, I'm also running two sets of T-5's hung vertically to side light the plants.

I might be able to squeeze four CFL units in that space. I'll know about that in a couple of weeks. the T-5's only span 4', so going outside that range is probably not productive (if the T-5's are actually contributing).

the other factor I'm keeping in mind is that these 550W CFL's come in both 6,700K and 2,700K flavors. my T-5's are the same. I've not seen those 28W CFL's in warm white nor the 250W bulb.

so my question remains: why is HPS superior to the array I can put into my grow space? 400W at more than a foot away vs 1,650W on top of the plants. I'm missing the logic here.

thanks to everyone for their input!
 
SABO said:
Thanks for the info Graytail, like I stated, I wasn't sure which way to go at first. I checked into just CFLs, then HID & LEDs. I think based on what I have read here in the forums, people are getting excellent results with LEDs, but the initial start up is substantial. The CFLs are getting better & better, but as far as I can see, the HIDs are still the ones that pack the punch. Once the LED technology becomes more advanced and the Chinese finally get out of the market or stop dumping cheap ass equipment on the market, the prices will come down on the "Real Quality LEDs". Until then, I will settle on my compromise.
Click to expand...

I think LEDs have arrived, frankly. The latest ones are selling for less than $1 per watt (draw, not claimed), and the growers I'm watching say they produce more trichs with better penetration than hps, for less draw wattage.

The upfront cost is 4 times HID cost, but they also run a lot longer without having to replace bulbs. AND they draw less power and produce less heat, which can swing the balance in areas with high elec rates and/or high temps. But the 3 and 5 watt diodes need some serious clearance - like 12" for the 3s and 18" for the 5s.
 
thanks, Graytail. as I continue to say, they aren't on my radar for multiple reasons.

Engineer, I hear you loud and clear but when the distance from bulb to bud is factored in, the lumens drop off dramatically, according to the charts I've seen, so this doesn't answer the buzz in my head.

I'm not growing Christmas Trees. in appearance it's closer to SCROG but without the screen. all of the buds are at the top, thanks to pruning and LST.
 
Farang said:
thanks, Graytail. as I continue to say, they aren't on my radar for multiple reasons.

Engineer, I hear you loud and clear but when the distance from bulb to bud is factored in, the lumens drop off dramatically, according to the charts I've seen, so this doesn't answer the buzz in my head.

I'm not growing Christmas Trees. in appearance it's closer to SCROG but without the screen. all of the buds are at the top, thanks to pruning and LST.
Click to expand...

This inverse square rule has me a little flummoxed, too. I have 6-23w bulbs over a square foot for 8400 lumens. Yes, I know lumens isn't the proper term. I tried the inverse square on that at 2 inches and came up with like three times the power of the sun, so ... the rule breaks down. :cheesygrinsmiley:

Do you have overhead room? Do you need to have the light that close? If not, you'll find that after all the research and opinions, HID will blow CFLs away, whatever the reason, that's the experience. But yes, you can produce good results in flower with CFLs.
 
Graytail,

first of all, I'm not in the US, so a whole lot of things aren't available to me. I'm in a rented 'house' which is of such shoddy construction that I wouldn't dare hang lights from the ceiling. let's just say, my conditions are primitive and I'm doing what I can to get what I can.

at this time, I'm having a rack modified so that I can grow taller plants and have the room to raise the light to accommodate them. I'm also waiting for this current crop to finish so I can modify the original rack. I just had A/C installed in that room and, because of that, I'm about to double the grow area.

when I'm finished, I should be able to run the lights close to 2 meters above the floor. the height above the soil is going to depend on the size of hard plastic pot I choose.

I haven't checked with this latest lighting shop, so I don't know if I can get a 600W HPS fixture or not. the 400 I have is the largest I've been able to find, so far. according to the Phillips website, T-5's are available up to 58W, but not available here. I don't know if I can import them or not.

along with shoddy construction, the electrics in my place are right out of the 19th century. they do a great business here selling ground breakers because nobody has three pronged outlets. as I say, primitive.

I'm not sure how much I can stress the circuit which feeds that room so the lower I can keep the wattage requirements, the safer I feel.

I hear some say you can get good production out of CFL's and others say it's garbage. I dunno. because my old 250W CFL's are 6,700K, I don't run them during flowering. somehow I'd suspect that with that heat range, you wouldn't get great buds. but with the 2,700K CFL's, I wonder.

hope that answers your question.
 
It's not the Watts that will stress the circuit, it's the Amps. What is the Amp rating of your circuit? Do you have only one circuit for your place? If you do have another circuit, run a heavy duty extension cord from a different outlet to help out with a possible overload which could lead to a fire. Honestly, the way that you describe the conditions under which you are trying to grow is probably going to result in something very bad happening sooner or later. If I was faced with this situation, I'd most certainly try and grow outdoors somewhere. Weed is not worth burning down someone else's property or if there any any other tenants in your building or if your place is near another inhabited building, you're probably risking their lives also. Just my thoughts.
 
yup. voltage X amperage = wattage. I was using wattage as shorthand.

the electrics here are all 220V. there are three 15 amp circuit breakers in the 'house.' with three floors, one would assume that there would be one circuit breaker for each floor.

and you'd be wrong.

some things downstairs are on the same circuit as those on the living area second floor, for instance. basically, I don't trust much in their knowledge or expertise here. spit and bailing wire are common repairs and running extension chords is mandatory as each room will have a maximum of two outlets. which is why I'm trying to keep things cool.
 
Well, as stated before, if things are really that bad where you reside, I would definitely consider growing outdoors, but I am getting the impression that you can't do that either, because it is probably highly illegal in your country. I hope you figure out a way of solving your problem, but also, I sure as hell hope you don't hurt yourself, your landlord's property or anyone else in your search for a solution.

Peace
 
I have grown on the third floor patio. I'm seriously toying with doing it again this year with some local sativa bag seed, but the outdoor light pollution is a problem.

I don't have access to ground. kind of like a condo, there is no back yard or front yard and even if I did have a yard, outside cultivation would spell disaster (nosy neighbors and the rest).

I'm doing the best I can with what little is available and I'm more interested in keeping this conversation on point: HPS v BIG CFL's.
 
Farang said:
I'm doing the best I can with what little is available and I'm more interested in keeping this conversation on point: HPS v BIG CFL's.
Click to expand...

I don't think I want to be part of this thread any longer. I can just imagine what would happen if someone here tries to give advice on electrical issues in another country and something bad happens. I don't believe this thread is properly contributing to Cannabis awareness, due to the undoubtedly unsafe electrical system that is present. My best advice is to have your landlord bring your wiring up to code, if there are any electrical codes, and then start the conversation on "High Intensity Discharge " or "Low wattage CFLs"
:amen:.
 
I'm not old'skool and fighting the HPS corner, I started on 600w of CFL and when looking at pics on here of plants at the same stage, it was like looking at an autumn tree compared to a mid spring one.

2 weeks of HPS and they're so out of control I've had to tie down four colas before they started burning.

I'm running a 600w HPS in a cool tube and have it approx 6" above the plants. there are dense buds from top top bottom on them, which the CFLs just couldn't match.

I still veg under CFL, but flower only under HPS,
 
you hit the nail on the head: what code?

this isn't at all about my electrical situation. it's about light.
 
Farang said:
I have grown on the third floor patio. I'm seriously toying with doing it again this year with some local sativa bag seed, but the outdoor light pollution is a problem.

I don't have access to ground. kind of like a condo, there is no back yard or front yard and even if I did have a yard, outside cultivation would spell disaster (nosy neighbors and the rest).

I'm doing the best I can with what little is available and I'm more interested in keeping this conversation on point: HPS v BIG CFL's.
Click to expand...

Here's another factor to consider: A 400 watt hps has an effective footprint of about 3x3 feet, so it's best for shapes like a growing tent - more tall than wide. You can spread CFLs out for a short wide grow.

I, for instance, am considering a short wide grow space for veg, but I don't see how to easily fit MH into that space. I'd need a foot of clearance and I'd be wasting a foot of depth because the cabinet would only be 2 feet deep. The plants on the ends would get less light and the ones in the middle would get blasted. I've gone over it time and again, and I keep coming back to CFLs for my available space.

But seriously, if you have the height, there's just no comparison between a 400 watt hps and CFLs. The difference is dramatic in every grow I've seen.
 

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