Coco Coir & Super Soil Questions

[Mountain Goat]

Hi

I have just completed my second indoor grow. I grew Exodus Cheese on both, the first using pure buffered coco with a 40% perlite mix and the second grow I used a "coco amended mix". This being coco mixed with perlite, vermiculite, rock dust, worm castings, guano, bone meal micros and aminos etc.
My grow footprint is 18' x 9' for 60 plants scrogged....... I divided area into 3....(9' x 3') and use 1.7 gallon pots on rolling self draining tables......drain to waste with 12 x 315w CMH lights.

First grow I hand watered and the second grow I installed drip for fertigation with 4 x emitters per pot.

My first and most important question is essentially when people talk about a "super soil" does this mean"real dirt and compost mixes" or is a "coco amended soil" like I used in my second grow included in the super soil category?

I test my nutrient "feed in" for EC/PPM and PH......and test EC/PPM on "run off"......working on the eat and spit theory.......see if the plants are eating or choking on nutrients. With pure coco this is a good tool, but with an "amended" mix EC/PPM out on run off is not necessarily a true reflection to use on working out what the plants need on the next watering?

How does one work out what nutrient to feed the girls when one is using .....lets call it an "amended" coco super soil?......does one watch the plants as in growth, leaf color etc and feed as per what they are telling me. I assume I will not need nutrients for the first 4-6 weeks apart from adding some additives such as enzymes, amino and kelp (kelpak liquid) etc?

Second question is on pure coco, I use a 5.7 -5.9 PH in veg and a 6.0 - 6.2 PH in flower........"soil" recommendations indicate a far higher PH......again is a "coco amended super soil" a soil .........meaning it requires the higher PH on feeding?

Third question is on my first grow using pure coco I used Biobizz "organic" nutrients.......the second grow I tried a "salt based" 3 part nutrient. Can a drip with emitter watering system function with Biobizz without clogging up or must I use a bit of Hydrogen Peroxide in water to keep clear?

Fourth question is if I am using a "coco amended soil mix"......should I stick to "organic" nutrients as the salt based nutrients nullify the "organic" components and population in this "soil".

For my next grow I need to make a decision on what "soil" to use.........Someone has developed a "super soil" which has coco, spaghetti peat, 5% perlite, rock dust, worm castings, guano, micros, aminos etc.......(looks very nice) saying that this will take the plats through to finnish, with some "additives" and maybe a little bloom nutrition and possibly a little bloom booster through flower.....again not telling me what EC levels to feed?

I will appreciate any guidance going forward from the 420 gurus.

 

[Barney86]

I think the easy option would be choose one or the other lol.
Soil and Coco are completely different ends of the spectrum mate so it's pretty hard to pin point things when you mix them together.
Coco likes a lower pH and Lots and lots of liquid. Let it dry out like soil requires and the nutes turn back into salts and build up causing problems.
Having slow release amendments in Coco like you put in soil can also cause problems due to the volume of liquid required to keep it wet. They can become no so slow release and burn them.

I think how you treat it would depend on wether it was mostly Coco or mostly soil.
I realise this isn't a particularly helpful response but it's something I'd quite like to know aswell so I'll hang about to see how it goes.

 

[Alafornia]

I can't answer much other than to say my understanding of a true super soil is that it is dirt/soil with amendments added (and may include coco fiber) with the intention to take the plant through harvest with, ideally, no added nutrients of any kind. It doesn't always work out that way, of course. I'm on my first grow. I am using a super soil. I have only ever added water so far and never pH'd my water as the soil is a buffer and the pH will rise or fall during the wet to dry cycle. I do have (finally) calmag on standby if needed.

I hope that helped a little even if I could not answer you primary questions.

 

[Mountain Goat]

Ok....so the coco base with (perlite, vermiculum, peat, worm castings, rock dust, bone meal, perlite, guano, micros, aminos and whatever else they put into the mix) is really a sort of "HYBRID" .....classed in the coco substrate category, but definitely not a "super soil".......so must be treated in the grow, more like coco.....PH included.
I did get some burn on my last grow and put it down to not watering regularly enough in the beginning......letting things dry out a bit.....I was worried that the mix held water too long versus a pure perlite/coco mix.........all the amendment nutrients and the drying out......I think caused the burn.....things certainly got better when I started watering everyday.
I then also assume there are no major friendly colonies present as in "living organic soil" so can use a salt based nutrient.....if and when required.....this will let me sleep easy, not worrying about the drip and emitters blocking up.
My only challenge will be to "read" the plants and feed whatever they require over and above the nutrients in the substrate when needed. Testing EC on run off does not mean anything really.
Doing research on the net......my problem was I could not find definitive workshop and technical comment on the HYBRID coco with amendments, guys quoting issues, problems, solutions etc........and am still not quite sure what the industry refers/calls this hybrid coco mix.

 

[Emilya Green]

You probably burned your plants with that hybrid coco mix because you tried to put raw nutrients that are not yet in the form that the plants need, in your medium. I don't even want to think about the hot zones of pH that you had in there around all those raw nutrients. As said above, coco is not soil and without the humic acids and all the other organics that support the microlife, at best coco is a temporary holding ground for the microbes, certainly not a place for them to thrive and work to break down the nutrients that you have supplied. You are attempting to mix two systems that are not compatable, and your hybrid coco mix is never going to work like a supersoil would do. In coco you need to feed out of a bottle and to assume that just because you put all the organic good stuff in there that it is now available to the plants, is failing to understand the soil feeding cycle. Your only chance to make this work would be to feed active microlife into the system with practically every watering, and hope that your regular microlife migrations into the system will be able to keep up with the feeding needs of the plants. You would be much better off and have a much easier time of it if you just went full soil or full coco.
Lastly, the industry does not have a name for what you are doing, because it won't work. If you intend to go organic in your coco you will be forced to feed organic nutrients out of a bottle and try to bring in microbes to deal with all your amendments, when it would be far easier just to feed them chelated organic nutrients in the first place and not deal with the dirty amended coco and all its extra needs to make it functional.
What is the fascination with coco anyway and why do you seem so averse to using soil when it would be so much easier?

 

[Mountain Goat]

You probably burned your plants with that hybrid coco mix because you tried to put raw nutrients that are not yet in the form that the plants need, in your medium. I don't even want to think about the hot zones of pH that you had in there around all those raw nutrients. As said above, coco is not soil and without the humic acids and all the other organics that support the microlife, at best coco is a temporary holding ground for the microbes, certainly not a place for them to thrive and work to break down the nutrients that you have supplied. You are attempting to mix two systems that are not compatable, and your hybrid coco mix is never going to work like a supersoil would do. In coco you need to feed out of a bottle and to assume that just because you put all the organic good stuff in there that it is now available to the plants, is failing to understand the soil feeding cycle. Your only chance to make this work would be to feed active microlife into the system with practically every watering, and hope that your regular microlife migrations into the system will be able to keep up with the feeding needs of the plants. You would be much better off and have a much easier time of it if you just went full soil or full coco.
Lastly, the industry does not have a name for what you are doing, because it won't work. If you intend to go organic in your coco you will be forced to feed organic nutrients out of a bottle and try to bring in microbes to deal with all your amendments, when it would be far easier just to feed them chelated organic nutrients in the first place and not deal with the dirty amended coco and all its extra needs to make it functional.
What is the fascination with coco anyway and why do you seem so averse to using soil when it would be so much easier?

I basically agree with everything you have mentioned....from my research, this is my understanding of how things work. My confusion is that there are companies out there selling this "hybrid" coco super soil, if I can be permitted to use the phrase........saying, simply feed ph water through to harvest......this does not make a lot of sense....almost the crossing two different worlds.

I am based in South Africa and most of the indoor growers use coco with varying percentages of perlite and essentially feed out of the bottle. There is a product called Promix, which is coco, perlite and worm castings. Some make up their own growing mix, buying a coco block, hydrating and buffering with Cal Mag.

I am trying to get my head around this and just thought I was missing some or other trick. I incidentally do not mix my own medium and only buy in ready mixed......so this amended coco that I am talking about is not my invention.

I think on my next grow I will use a bagged Dutch mix - Atami, a high porosity coco, perlite and leica......hand water and once the root system has developed sufficiently I will use the drip system to fertigate with multi feeds. I will feel more in control testing EC in and EC on run off......also set my PH per feed.

 

[crazypaint79]

You probably burned your plants with that hybrid coco mix because you tried to put raw nutrients that are not yet in the form that the plants need, in your medium. I don't even want to think about the hot zones of pH that you had in there around all those raw nutrients. As said above, coco is not soil and without the humic acids and all the other organics that support the microlife, at best coco is a temporary holding ground for the microbes, certainly not a place for them to thrive and work to break down the nutrients that you have supplied. You are attempting to mix two systems that are not compatable, and your hybrid coco mix is never going to work like a supersoil would do. In coco you need to feed out of a bottle and to assume that just because you put all the organic good stuff in there that it is now available to the plants, is failing to understand the soil feeding cycle. Your only chance to make this work would be to feed active microlife into the system with practically every watering, and hope that your regular microlife migrations into the system will be able to keep up with the feeding needs of the plants. You would be much better off and have a much easier time of it if you just went full soil or full coco.
Lastly, the industry does not have a name for what you are doing, because it won't work. If you intend to go organic in your coco you will be forced to feed organic nutrients out of a bottle and try to bring in microbes to deal with all your amendments, when it would be far easier just to feed them chelated organic nutrients in the first place and not deal with the dirty amended coco and all its extra needs to make it functional.
What is the fascination with coco anyway and why do you seem so averse to using soil when it would be so much easier?

Bro that is so not true. Have you ever watched mr. Canucks grow on YouTube. He use Coco coir ( well when he first started) Gaia green, and worm castings. His grows go start to finish without fail every time.

 

[RHEC420]

I basically agree with everything you have mentioned....from my research, this is my understanding of how things work. My confusion is that there are companies out there selling this "hybrid" coco super soil, if I can be permitted to use the phrase........saying, simply feed ph water through to harvest......this does not make a lot of sense....almost the crossing two different worlds.

I am based in South Africa and most of the indoor growers use coco with varying percentages of perlite and essentially feed out of the bottle. There is a product called Promix, which is coco, perlite and worm castings. Some make up their own growing mix, buying a coco block, hydrating and buffering with Cal Mag.

I am trying to get my head around this and just thought I was missing some or other trick. I incidentally do not mix my own medium and only buy in ready mixed......so this amended coco that I am talking about is not my invention.

I think on my next grow I will use a bagged Dutch mix - Atami, a high porosity coco, perlite and leica......hand water and once the root system has developed sufficiently I will use the drip system to fertigate with multi feeds. I will feel more in control testing EC in and EC on run off......also set my PH per feed.

Just buy a few bricks of Hydro Crunch Coco Coir & a Bag of #4 Pearlite, a bottle of calmag, & a tote or bucket to mix it up in... I also use clonex with calmag to hydrate my coir at a soild 5.5ph then feed with one of many great brands like dyna grow, masterblend, jacks, general hydroponics, etc. I grow super plants & I don't stress to much over setting The pots. I just sprinkle some great white rooting hormone in with the babies & it's off to the races! I use about 1/3 pearlite to Coco-coir that seems to be the sweet spot for me. Hope this helps!