Defoliation - Is there yet a definitive answer?

[LoGiK287]

Hey everyone, seems this is a hot topic with people claiming to be right on both sides of the fence.

Is there any actual proof that significant defoliation has a positive effect on your harvest? I've been doing a ton of reading posts and journals with side by side comparisons, but I haven't found any reliable results.

I'm currently growing a blue dream strain in a SCROG setup that has proven to be super stretchy with sparse bud growth. I haven't removed any leaves beyond cleaning the underside of my canopy. I wonder if defoliation would increase the amount of light getting to my bud sites and possibly slow the stretch I'm seeing.

Thoughts?

 

[MrFortwenty]

In my scrog, aside from under the canopy like yourself, I try to strategically tuck as much as possible instead of cutting. Although the stretch is what fills your scrog, how come you want to stop it?

 

[LoGiK287]

Maybe my methods were the cause, or maybe i cloned a bad phenotype. they were probably 4’ tall when I was able to get them under a trellis. I supercropped them to get them to lay horizontally.

They continued to grow vertically at least 4-5’ above the trellis stretching like crazy and producing single finger leafs, until I was maxed out on my light height. Nothing ever fattened up and I was left with very spindly buds.

I didn’t defoliate much beyond removing anything under the canopy.

IMG_1130.JPG

• LoGiK287
• May 16, 2018

scraggler bud

IMG_1137.JPG

• LoGiK287
• May 16, 2018

IMG_1018.JPG

• LoGiK287
• Apr 19, 2018

Under cannopy Day 63 flower

 

[Stunned]

Hey everyone, seems this is a hot topic with people claiming to be right on both sides of the fence.

Is there any actual proof that significant defoliation has a positive effect on your harvest? I've been doing a ton of reading posts and journals with side by side comparisons, but I haven't found any reliable results.

I'm currently growing a blue dream strain in a SCROG setup that has proven to be super stretchy with sparse bud growth. I haven't removed any leaves beyond cleaning the underside of my canopy. I wonder if defoliation would increase the amount of light getting to my bud sites and possibly slow the stretch I'm seeing.

Thoughts?

I am also growing a Blue Dream in a scrog and having the exact same results as you are having.
Super stretchy plants that have very small spindly buds
Really disappointed in this plant TBH
I knew it was going to stretch, but this has been ridiculous.
I think this plant is best grown outdoors. A 6 foot high tent is not enough room
I did a ton of defoliating on the plant but have pretty much the same results as you have
good luck with yours

 

[MrFortwenty]

Single fingered leaves? You sure you don't have a light leak or wonky timer? Sounds like a reveg issue and nothing to do with defoliation

 

[Weaselcracker]

Yes Logic it looks like your plant had some light cycle issues and went into a confused/reveg state. Nothing to do with defoliation.
As for defoliation- I think first we would have to define it. The term could cover a pretty large range of practices. Usually I think of it as -major stripping of leaves to ‘increase yield’.

Some people go around constantly pulling off fan leaves
Almost all people do some amount of thinning and trimming.
In general sativas seem to dislike getting tortured in flower. Sometimes that’s a good thing when you’re trying to slow them down. Most people doing a lot of defoliation and getting away with it seem to be doing it to heavy indica strains.

 

[LoGiK287]

I am also growing a Blue Dream in a scrog and having the exact same results as you are having.
Super stretchy plants that have very small spindly buds
Really disappointed in this plant TBH
I knew it was going to stretch, but this has been ridiculous.
I think this plant is best grown outdoors. A 6 foot high tent is not enough room
I did a ton of defoliating on the plant but have pretty much the same results as you have
good luck with yours

Much appreciated!

My first generation of blue dream wasn’t too bad. It was my first grow and I popped 5 seeds from humboldt. 1 plant went super stretchy and spindly which I chopped early thinking it was a hermaphrodite.

I cloned randomly from all 5 plants not really knowing that selecting the proper mother would have been best.

I’m thinking that I may have ended up with clones from the spindly phenotype.

The first 4 that I harvested netted me just over 300 grams.

This generation gave me no nice buds

 

[MrFortwenty]

Much appreciated!

My first generation of blue dream wasn’t too bad. It was my first grow and I popped 5 seeds from humboldt. 1 plant went super stretchy and spindly which I chopped early thinking it was a hermaphrodite.

I cloned randomly from all 5 plants not really knowing that selecting the proper mother would have been best.

I’m thinking that I may have ended up with clones from the spindly phenotype.

The first 4 that I harvested netted me just over 300 grams.

This generation gave me no nice buds

That doesn't look like a genetic issue. Light leak or timer problems.

 

[LoGiK287]

Single fingered leaves? You sure you don't have a light leak or wonky timer? Sounds like a reveg issue and nothing to do with defoliation

Yeah that’s what the consensus was when I looked for help on the forums.

There was possibly a light leak in my tent.

But now I have the next generation about 50 days into flower. I’m positive there is no light leak/timer issues and the plant looks the same, tiny sparse bud growth.

I have a single blueberry in the mix with my blue dream. it’s growing nice fat colas right next to the sparse stretchy blue dream.

I thought defoliation, or maybe further pruning of lower or unproductive bud sites could be an answer. With my scrog setup there is a lot of bud sites, I thought possibly too many? Resulting in lots of tiny sparse growth instead of a smaller number of nice big dense colas.

This is all just speculation for me as I am far from an expert haha.

Thanks for the input guys!

 

[MrFortwenty]

Yeah that’s what the consensus was when I looked for help on the forums.

There was possibly a light leak in my tent.

But now I have the next generation about 50 days into flower. I’m positive there is no light leak/timer issues and the plant looks the same, tiny sparse bud growth.

I have a single blueberry in the mix with my blue dream. it’s growing nice fat colas right next to the sparse stretchy blue dream.

I thought defoliation, or maybe further pruning of lower or unproductive bud sites could be an answer. With my scrog setup there is a lot of bud sites, I thought possibly too many? Resulting in lots of tiny sparse growth instead of a smaller number of nice big dense colas.

This is all just speculation for me as I am far from an expert haha.

Thanks for the input guys!

Defoliation or too many bud sites doesn't give you issues like you're having.

 

[LoGiK287]

Yes Logic it looks like your plant had some light cycle issues and went into a confused/reveg state. Nothing to do with defoliation.
As for defoliation- I think first we would have to define it. The term could cover a pretty large range of practices. Usually I think of it as -major stripping of leaves to ‘increase yield’.

Some people go around constantly pulling off fan leaves
Almost all people do some amount of thinning and trimming.
In general sativas seem to dislike getting tortured in flower. Sometimes that’s a good thing when you’re trying to slow them down. Most people doing a lot of defoliation and getting away with it seem to be doing it to heavy indica strains.

Yeah I read a few articles of guys stripping nearly 70% of the fan leaves through veg and well into flower. There was no side by side comparison so no actual proof of increased yields. Although they all claim that it’s beneficial.

It did cause some interest in my mind, but I have yet to see any definite answer.

 

[LoGiK287]

Defoliation or too many bud sites doesn't give you issues like you're having.

Ok well that’s good to know. In your opinion would this fall down to bad genetics then?

Here’s a comparison of my blueberry to blue dream about 40 days into 12/12.

Blueberry:

IMG_1159.JPG

• LoGiK287
• May 17, 2018

Blueberry

IMG_1158.JPG

• LoGiK287
• May 17, 2018

Blueberry

Blue dream:

IMG_1161.JPG

• LoGiK287
• May 17, 2018

Blue dream

IMG_1160.JPG

• LoGiK287
• May 17, 2018

Blue dream

 

[MrFortwenty]

Yeah I read a few articles of guys stripping nearly 70% of the fan leaves through veg and well into flower. There was no side by side comparison so no actual proof of increased yields. Although they all claim that it’s beneficial.

It did cause some interest in my mind, but I have yet to see any definite answer.

The thing with growing is there's so much "bro science" that it's hard to navigate through the BS and find the actual truth. I can't imagine how taking leaves from a plant is beneficial, especially when you're taking so many. Sure some defoliation, in certain circumstances, is ideal but simply doing it because it "makes bigger buds" is crazy. So many growing myths with ZERO science behind it. Just a bunch of people reading what someone else did and regurgitating the information like it came from a university science text book. That then becomes the next "you have to grow like this or you're doing it wrong" Do what works for your growing style and environment.

 

[Weaselcracker]

I think it can be chalked up to your environmental conditions. Grower induced issues. Please don’t be insulted by that- pretty much all my plants suffer from some form of grower induced issues at some point, and I’ve been growing for quite a few years.
I’m just saying it’s probably not genetics that take the blame.
As a (generally) sativa dominant strain BD will normally grow taller and lankier, use less fertilizer, need more light, and hate any sort of defol more than it’s relative the Blueberry.
Beyond that, guessing from the pics, I think both your plants could probably use more light. I could be wrong about that. Pics are a little blurry I think and I’m recovering from eye surgery so everything is pretty blurry these days .

 

[flashmp3]

I am also growing a Blue Dream in a scrog and having the exact same results as you are having.
Super stretchy plants that have very small spindly buds
Really disappointed in this plant TBH
I knew it was going to stretch, but this has been ridiculous.
I think this plant is best grown outdoors. A 6 foot high tent is not enough room
I did a ton of defoliating on the plant but have pretty much the same results as you have
good luck with yours

My blue dream has been harmed by terpinator foliar spraying but managed to give decent result :

Blue dream beast

• flashmp3
• Apr 19, 2018

Transplanted yesterday cause I needed the pot for the next grow. She seems alright

I had to suppercrop some branches during flowering cause it was stretching a bit to much but as you can see it was not tiny flowers on tiny branches. So I think blue dream requires good amount of light to avoid stretching. Something like decent 70000 lux.

Regarding the defoliation I ve seen awesome results in some journals. Myself I could never conclude it had increased yields. There so many settings that play a role! Sometimes I tend to think that defoliation just perhaps force the plant to expand root system. So maybe when the plant starts to recover, it has more roots so can develop better. Defoliation also allow to give better light penetration which helps growing bigger buds. So I think the more important is to do it gently. Not too much. Just enough to prevent shaded bud sites. I would be very interesting to be able to compare root system of two plants with one defoliated. IMO the good results come in a good part just from the fact that the plant has to recover and maybe meanwhile produces more roots which lead later to more yields. Just a thought....

 

[Stunned]

Ok well that’s good to know. In your opinion would this fall down to bad genetics then?

Here’s a comparison of my blueberry to blue dream about 40 days into 12/12.

Blueberry:

IMG_1159.JPG

• LoGiK287
• May 17, 2018

Blueberry

IMG_1158.JPG

• LoGiK287
• May 17, 2018

Blueberry

Blue dream:

IMG_1161.JPG

• LoGiK287
• May 17, 2018

Blue dream

IMG_1160.JPG

• LoGiK287
• May 17, 2018

Blue dream

yup that's what my plants look like too
It might be light leak.
I live north so it stays light till like 10pm now
I didn't have that problem in my winter grow
The windows in the bedroom I'm growing in have thin curtains, so I put up a thick comforter over the window
My schedule is on a 7am till 7pm cycle
if that's not the issue, maybe I just got a bad pheno

 

[LoGiK287]

The thing with growing is there's so much "bro science" that it's hard to navigate through the BS and find the actual truth. I can't imagine how taking leaves from a plant is beneficial, especially when you're taking so many. Sure some defoliation, in certain circumstances, is ideal but simply doing it because it "makes bigger buds" is crazy. So many growing myths with ZERO science behind it. Just a bunch of people reading what someone else did and regurgitating the information like it came from a university science text book. That then becomes the next "you have to grow like this or you're doing it wrong" Do what works for your growing style and environment.

I share the same thoughts, bro science everywhere. It has been a challenge to sort out fact from urban grow myth.

In my understanding leaves are required by the plant to grow, so it seems counter productive to remove them. But one defol advocate stated “we’re growing buds, not leaves” which stuck with me. He argued that by picking nearly all the fan leaves that the buds had increased light exposure all through even the lower canopy. Therefore the bud sites swelled more and in theory, produce more.

Bud sites do seem to react directly to how much light they receive, so it was enough to pique my interest.

 

[MrFortwenty]

I share the same thoughts, bro science everywhere. It has been a challenge to sort out fact from urban grow myth.

In my understanding leaves are required by the plant to grow, so it seems counter productive to remove them. But one defol advocate stated “we’re growing buds, not leaves” which stuck with me. He argued that by picking nearly all the fan leaves that the buds had increased light exposure all through even the lower canopy. Therefore the bud sites swelled more and in theory, produce more.

Bud sites do seem to react directly to how much light they receive, so it was enough to pique my interest.

True, but don't you think if the plant wasn't supposed to have leaves it wouldn't have leaves? They serve a purpose, light "solar panels", removing them is detrimental. As I said I defoliate, but hardly. I tuck as much as I can when needed. Do whatever works for you, if that means cutting off every fan leaf then go for it. I just think it's massive BS

 

[LoGiK287]

I think it can be chalked up to your environmental conditions. Grower induced issues. Please don’t be insulted by that- pretty much all my plants suffer from some form of grower induced issues at some point, and I’ve been growing for quite a few years.
I’m just saying it’s probably not genetics that take the blame.
As a (generally) sativa dominant strain BD will normally grow taller and lankier, use less fertilizer, need more light, and hate any sort of defol more than it’s relative the Blueberry.
Beyond that, guessing from the pics, I think both your plants could probably use more light. I could be wrong about that. Pics are a little blurry I think and I’m recovering from eye surgery so everything is pretty blurry these days .

I’m not one to get my defenses up over criticism. I’m here to learn from you lovely people with more experience than myself

It very well could be grower error, I’m just falling sort of a solid answer to why they seem to be so sparse and spindly in comparison to my first harvest from seed.

I’m growing under a 600 watt MH/HPS in a 4x4x8 tent If you have a moment you can see my full grow details at my journal post SCROG Blue Dream CoCo 600 Watt HPS - Tiny Spindly Buds - Help!

 

[LoGiK287]

True, but don't you think if the plant wasn't supposed to have leaves it wouldn't have leaves? They serve a purpose, light "solar panels", removing them is detrimental. As I said I defoliate, but hardly. I tuck as much as I can when needed. Do whatever works for you, if that means cutting off every fan leaf then go for it. I just think it's massive BS

It seems to be the same opinion as most. I’m open to exploring the possibility I suppose, and trying to nail down why I’m not getting nice fat colas like my first crop.

The more I learn, the more I realize I don’t know. Like you said there’s a bunch of bro science and I’m trying to sort out what may be actually useful.

I was hoping to find some well done side by side comparisons, with measured results. Although this is all speculation as I’m sure every strain could react differently anyways, based on so many different factors.