Levels of nutes in supersoil

[prankster]

Subcool’s Super Soil Recipe Improved, Small Batch :

• 1 ten gallon bag of high quality Organic Potting Soil Such as “Roots Organic Soil”
• 3 to 6 pounds of Organic Earthworm Castings (1 lb. of casting = about 1 gal.)
• 10 ounces of Blood Meal ( 10 oz. of blood meal = about 1 & 1/2 cups)
• 10 ounces of Bloom Bat Guano ( 10 oz. of guano = about 1 cup)
• 10 ounces Fish Bone Meal ( 10 oz. of bone meal = about 1 cup)
• 6 ounces Rock Phosphate
• 1&1/2 tablespoons Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate)
• 2 tablespoons or 1 oz. (liquid measure)of Dolomite Lime
• 1 tablespoons or 1/2 oz. (liquid measure) of Azomite (trace elements)
• 1 teaspoon of powdered Humic Acid

If I roughly calculate the NPK levels for subcools recipe, I find that it has about 230-250 grams of N in it, with a NPK ratio of about 20,5-1.

For me that is a veg NPK ratio.

In general I go for a 4 : 1 : 6 ratio when vegging, with N=170 mg/L and for bloom a 1,4 : 1 : 2,2 ratio, with N=160 mg/L, when using liquid ferts.

Say I grow some sativa dominant plants for like 84 days. That would be about 28 waterings. Say like a liter (quart) of water a time. That would be about 5 grams of N in total.

So 1/3 of 5 gallon is 1,6 gallon. Subcools recipe is about 10-15 gallons of soil with 230 grams of N. That is about 30-35 grams of N in the bottom third of the pot.

So is the N in Subcools recipe so slow in releasing N that it only releases about 5 grams from about 35 grams of total N in 84 days?

If I would design my own supersoil, what NPK ratio should I aim for? Veg ratio or bloom ratio? There is no repotting I think in supersoils. Or can you?

What levels should i go for with N. Subcools levels? 30 grams of N per pot?

BTW; i smoked some and became obsessed. I have no clue if these calculations are correct

 

[StoneOtter]

Great question prankster! I grow in The Rev's LOS soil and have no idea what it is.

 

[Emilya Green]

When you create a supersoil, you are cooking in a good portion of those raw nutrients during the 2-3 month "cooking" period. The NPK levels you have calculated never occur, because those nutes then have to be broken down by microbes in order to become available to the plants. The potential for all of that NPK you have calculated is there, but not without microbes to carry it to the plant. You are thinking of the supersoil as a large non liquid nutrient bottle of readily available nutes... and it is not.

I would not attempt to create my own supersoil. I strongly suggest you stick to known recipes, like Subcool's. Mulder's work on nutrient interactions in soil would need to be totally understood before attempting such a thing because getting one component out of balance and you can set up lockouts with other nutrients. Designing a soil with the proper water retention and flow through rate, CEC holding ability and with enough nutrients to last all through the grow is a balancing act that I know I am not knowledgeable enough to accomplish... I strongly suggest following the recipe.

When using supersoil, I use it in the bottom third of ALL of my containers, starting at the solo cup level. When I uppot to the next sized container, it is also built so the bottom third is supersoil. After 2 or three uppottings, you will have little pockets of supersoil all through your final container, with its bottom third also filled with supersoil. The system works great and I used it for many years, and at the end of the grow you can then mix all of the soil together, touch up the minerals a bit, and recompost it into an even larger batch of supersoil. I made one mini batch of Subcool's supersoil, and then used that base over and over again for the next 6 or 7 years, just amending and recomposting half of my soil collection between grows.

 

[prankster]

Great question prankster! I grow in The Rev's LOS soil and have no idea what it is.

Thanks for replying

Well,

If I just have to brew something that contains In grams N:30 P:15 K:30 (I prefer lots of potassium since it stimulates water and nutrient uptake and because it is a big factor is smell and taste) than I could replace the following:

• 1 ten gallon bag of high quality Organic Potting Soil Such as “Roots Organic Soil”
• 3 to 6 pounds of Organic Earthworm Castings (1 lb. of casting = about 1 gal.)
• 10 ounces of Blood Meal ( 10 oz. of blood meal = about 1 & 1/2 cups)
• 10 ounces of Bloom Bat Guano ( 10 oz. of guano = about 1 cup)
• 10 ounces Fish Bone Meal ( 10 oz. of bone meal = about 1 cup)
• 6 ounces Rock Phosphate

With

• 3,08 kilo (6,8 pounds) Organic Earthworm Castings
• 2,4 kilo (5,3 pounds) alfalfa meal
• 3,43 kilo (7,53 pound) Crab meal
• 30 gram (1,06 oz) Kelp meal
• 760 gram (1,67 pounds) Langbeinite
• 30 gram (1,06 oz) Neemseed meal

I dont know about the Phosphate rock since it is a slow releaser so that it lasts long. But this mix would give 230 grams of N (P:115, K:230). If all ingredient come from 'down to earth fertilizers'

So than I only have to ammend this with maybe some Cal/Mag source. Although I have a lot of crabmeal.

Some dolomite for Mg and S and pH buffering

Some Azomite for trace minerals

Some Humic acid for chelation and pH stability

Some Mycorriza and funghi

and maybe some gowth hormones, vitamins and Molasses


Would it be any useful?

 

[prankster]

When you create a supersoil, you are cooking in a good portion of those raw nutrients during the 2-3 month "cooking" period. The NPK levels you have calculated never occur, because those nutes then have to be broken down by microbes in order to become available to the plants. The potential for all of that NPK you have calculated is there, but not without microbes to carry it to the plant. You are thinking of the supersoil as a large non liquid nutrient bottle of readily available nutes... and it is not.

I would not attempt to create my own supersoil. I strongly suggest you stick to known recipes, like Subcool's. Mulder's work on nutrient interactions in soil would need to be totally understood before attempting such a thing because getting one component out of balance and you can set up lockouts with other nutrients. Designing a soil with the proper water retention and flow through rate, CEC holding ability and with enough nutrients to last all through the grow is a balancing act that I know I am not knowledgeable enough to accomplish... I strongly suggest following the recipe.

When using supersoil, I use it in the bottom third of ALL of my containers, starting at the solo cup level. When I uppot to the next sized container, it is also built so the bottom third is supersoil. After 2 or three uppottings, you will have little pockets of supersoil all through your final container, with its bottom third also filled with supersoil. The system works great and I used it for many years, and at the end of the grow you can then mix all of the soil together, touch up the minerals a bit, and recompost it into an even larger batch of supersoil. I made one mini batch of Subcool's supersoil, and then used that base over and over again for the next 6 or 7 years, just amending and recomposting half of my soil collection between grows.

I could calculate a mix with a certain ratio of all elements. But the thing is, Organics contain a lot of evrything and often there isn't a solution for the desired ratio with the desired ingredients. It was my understanding that the micro organisms balance the elements out when they release them. So the ratio should not matter that much in a living soil.

But yeah. If i would wanna calculate every element I would need a complete elemental analysis of every ingredient im going to use. And I usually only can find the NPK values.

So long story short. I was under the impressing that the microorganisms made sure that the soil is healthy for the plant.

 

[StoneOtter]

Thanks for replying

Well,

If I just have to brew something that contains In grams N:30 P:15 K:30 (I prefer lots of potassium since it stimulates water and nutrient uptake and because it is a big factor is smell and taste) than I could replace the following:

• 1 ten gallon bag of high quality Organic Potting Soil Such as “Roots Organic Soil”
• 3 to 6 pounds of Organic Earthworm Castings (1 lb. of casting = about 1 gal.)
• 10 ounces of Blood Meal ( 10 oz. of blood meal = about 1 & 1/2 cups)
• 10 ounces of Bloom Bat Guano ( 10 oz. of guano = about 1 cup)
• 10 ounces Fish Bone Meal ( 10 oz. of bone meal = about 1 cup)
• 6 ounces Rock Phosphate

With

• 3,08 kilo (6,8 pounds) Organic Earthworm Castings
• 2,4 kilo (5,3 pounds) alfalfa meal
• 3,43 kilo (7,53 pound) Crab meal
• 30 gram (1,06 oz) Kelp meal
• 760 gram (1,67 pounds) Langbeinite
• 30 gram (1,06 oz) Neemseed meal

I dont know about the Phosphate rock since it is a slow releaser so that it lasts long. But this mix would give 230 grams of N (P:115, K:230). If all ingredient come from 'down to earth fertilizers'

So than I only have to ammend this with maybe some Cal/Mag source. Although I have a lot of crabmeal.

Some dolomite for Mg and S and pH buffering

Some Azomite for trace minerals

Some Humic acid for chelation and pH stability

Some Mycorriza and funghi

and maybe some gowth hormones, vitamins and Molasses


Would it be any useful?

I promise I have no idea . Here's the recipe I use from The Rev's book, True Living Organics.

 

[Emilya Green]

I could calculate a mix with a certain ratio of all elements. But the thing is, Organics contain a lot of evrything and often there isn't a solution for the desired ratio with the desired ingredients. It was my understanding that the micro organisms balance the elements out when they release them. So the ratio should not matter that much in a living soil.

But yeah. If i would wanna calculate every element I would need a complete elemental analysis of every ingredient im going to use. And I usually only can find the NPK values.

So long story short. I was under the impressing that the microorganisms made sure that the soil is healthy for the plant.

Making healthy soil is only a small part of what the microbeasties do. They are a vital part of the organic feeding cycle and not only do they break down the organics into their raw components for their own nourishment, they also carry part of what they process back to the roots, because the roots are putting out exudates which not only help to feed the microbes, but it is also a signaling system that the plant uses to tell the microbes what to bring it, what it needs. In an organic grow, the plants starve without the microbes, not able to get to the nutrients by themselves.

I am not qualified to tell you if your mix will work, but I will tell you that many people who try to wing it and create their own soil end up with a mess of unexplained lockouts and deficiencies later on. There are a few who have done well with this, and maybe I can direct you to a local expert on this here on 420mag, the creator of a Faux-Soil mix, @farside05 . I would bet that everything that I am unable to tell you, he will. Hang tight... he will see this message and most likely respond to you with answers.

 

[StoneOtter]

Van Stank is another who may be qualified to expand on your questions. His soil is here.

 

[Emilya Green]

Van Stank is another who may be qualified to expand on your questions. His soil is here.

of course! @Van Stank I am sorry that I forgot you!

 

[farside05]

There are a few who have done well with this, and maybe I can direct you to a local expert on this here on 420mag, the creator of a Faux-Soil mix, @farside05 . I would bet that everything that I am unable to tell you, he will. Hang tight... he will see this message and most likely respond to you with answers.

My Faux-Mix is a copy of Pro-Mix, so it's soil-less mix that requires you to add fertilizer. I have a lot of different calculators that I have built in Excel, but I haven't applied any of that to organics or soil yet.

 

[Emilya Green]

My Faux-Mix is a copy of Pro-Mix, so it's soil-less mix that requires you to add fertilizer. I have a lot of different calculators that I have built in Excel, but I haven't applied any of that to organics or soil yet.

Thank you farside05... I need to pay better attention. Stay warm!

 

[prankster]

Thanks for replying

Well,

If I just have to brew something that contains In grams N:30 P:15 K:30 (I prefer lots of potassium since it stimulates water and nutrient uptake and because it is a big factor is smell and taste) than I could replace the following:

• 1 ten gallon bag of high quality Organic Potting Soil Such as “Roots Organic Soil”
• 3 to 6 pounds of Organic Earthworm Castings (1 lb. of casting = about 1 gal.)
• 10 ounces of Blood Meal ( 10 oz. of blood meal = about 1 & 1/2 cups)
• 10 ounces of Bloom Bat Guano ( 10 oz. of guano = about 1 cup)
• 10 ounces Fish Bone Meal ( 10 oz. of bone meal = about 1 cup)
• 6 ounces Rock Phosphate

With

• 3,08 kilo (6,8 pounds) Organic Earthworm Castings
• 2,4 kilo (5,3 pounds) alfalfa meal
• 3,43 kilo (7,53 pound) Crab meal
• 30 gram (1,06 oz) Kelp meal
• 760 gram (1,67 pounds) Langbeinite
• 30 gram (1,06 oz) Neemseed meal

Thanks all for replying. I gonna try it out but not now. Im busy moving to a new city and dont have a lot of time and money at the moment

So I have not added any organic soil. The total is 9,73 kilo (21,4 pounds). I wish I knew the bulkdensity of this mix.Then I could calculate the volume of it all.

1/3 of 5 gallon is 1,6 gallon of mix. I know that 21,4 pounds contain 230 grams (8,1 ounce) of N. Means that 0,093 pounds of mix contain 1 gram of N. So 30 grams of N is in 2,8 pounds (1,3 kilo) of mix. If it has a theoretical bulk density of 0,6 kilo/Litre (5 pound/Gallon) than 2,8 pounds of mix has a volume of 0,56 gallon (2,1 L) . This leaves 1,04 gallon (3,95 L) of space.

So the mix is mixed with 1,04 gallon inert medium like Coco or peatmoss. Or a combo.

 

[prankster]

Say I grow some sativa dominant plants for like 84 days. That would be about 28 waterings. Say like a liter (quart) of water a time. That would be about 5 grams of N in total (when the concentration of N in the fert is 170mg/L ).

SoI guessed that the total amount of nitrogen that the plant actually needed is 5grams but on average a plant exist of 4% nitrogen. Say a plant has a dry weight of 2 kilo than it exist out of 4% nitrogen. That is 80 grams of nitrogen.

Does anybody know more about the average total nitrogen uptake of the plant up until harvest.

 

[prankster]

This is something to consider.It is something that Ed Rosenthal wrote about his supersoil:

How to Make Your Own Cannabis Planting Mix to Maximize Your Marijuana Harvest — Ed Rosenthal

Ed Rosenthal’s step by step planting mix recipe will provide your cannabis roots with a healthful environment that promotes a vigorous marijuana plant.

www.edrosenthal.com

 

[prankster]

Spo I looked at one of the succeful supersoil recipes and it just threw in a littlebit of everything. Maybe because of all the different release rates of the many ingredients. So that there is always something available. So with that philosophy i calculated this. With ingredient npk's from down to earth fertilizers. It contains 250 grams of N in 17,2 kg supersoil (without base soil)

 

[prankster]

Spo I looked at one of the succeful supersoil recipes and it just threw in a littlebit of everything. Maybe because of all the different release rates of the many ingredients. So that there is always something available. So with that philosophy i calculated this. With ingredient npk's from down to earth fertilizers. It contains 250 grams of N in 17,2 kg supersoil (without base soil)

This one is not good since i assumed that bat guano is 1-0-0. But its 7-3-1

So ....... ignore it. Its not there

 

[prankster]

Well. This one looks nice. But its pure theorie.

 

[prankster]

Well. This one looks nice. But its pure theorie.

Another calculation mistake. Its 10 g N / liter mix (250 g N/ 24,4 L). So 30 grams N is 3 Liter mix + 3 Liter coir and biochar. Its 250 g N : 125 g P : 250 g K

 

[Stoneface Jack]

You're overthinking this. Subcool's recipe exists because he worked on it through trial and error, rather than trying to calculate the exact nitrogen needs of the plant, and supply exactly that. I've seen too many growers recently who try to take a reductionist approach, try to figure out exact numbers for an imprecise practice.
Plants aren't machines. There is no exact number because the plants are using different amounts of every nutrient that change minute by minute based on what the plant needs right that second, not by the arbitrary name we apply to the stage of growth it's in based on how many days it's been growing, or how many leaves it has.
If you want to keep pursuing this go ahead, but every plant is different. Unless you're growing clones of this plant, you are going to need to adjust the recipe every grow to meet the exact needs of every plant.

Sorry if that's a bit dismissive. I've been thinking this for a while, and I've been drinking tonight. I should really stick to weed.