Root chamber flushing?

[lvumlow]

Hello,

Disclaimer: Newbie question here...

I am wondering what some of you are doing with respect to flushing your roots/root chamber during your grow? How often and what strategy do you employ?

This is my first indoor grow, let alone trying to tinker with a DIY aeroponic configuration so the science can be a little overwhelming for me at times...

I made an effort to journal my grow in detail so i could go back and learn from my mistakes if something went wrong. Now that I am in week 4 of flower, I want to try focus in on all the optimal conditions for my girl and ensure any previuos mistakes are corrected for this critical phase of the grow.

While reviewing my journal entries, I noted various pH and EC fluctuations along the way so I am trying to understand where they came from. It is my understanding that the plant has the ability for both uptake and leeching of nutrients based on its need and monitoring your waste water can help you have a better pulse on what your plant is doing. I have been recirculating into the same resovoir and didn't have a easy way to check the return line but plan to put in a gate valve to make that easier.

I was changing all my nutrients tonight and with the resovoir empty, I was able to lift one side of the root chamber and collect whatever nutrients were left and take some measurements. I expected to see higher numbers from buildup but I saw much higher numbers than I thought. I cycled a full resovoir of fresh nutrients thru the system and took readings again and the numbers were still extremely high? It took 3 flush cycles to get levels down to reasonable levels so my question is should I have been flushing my roots/chamber more regularly? I have been so focused on all the other grow parameters that I didn't even think about buildup in an aero system (I associated it to soil it coco, but not hydro).

Would love to hear what others are doing or what I should be doing to keep everything healthy.

 

[013]

Guess I was thinking of aquaponics, so you are spray misting the roots?

I don’t do hydro but I’m thinking yes the rservoir should be changed about 10 to 14 days, not just adding fresh nutes but full water change IIRC. Let me shout at @Rexer to start with also you will probably benefit from botanicare hydroguard, this may not be sold in your country due to trade restrictions and tariffs etc but you can look it up to find the name of the beneficial bacterium and search from there to see if it’s available under another brand name. This stuff prevents root rot which is common in nearly every hydro grow format.

but don’t change your strategy based on my word, let’s get a few more people to jump in and steer you towards the right people. I’m soil grower so yeah I get a few basics but yes this is out of my league.

 

[lvumlow]

Aeroponics or hydroponics? This sounds like rdwc which is recirculated deep water culture.

I don’t do hydro but yes reservoir should be changed about 10 to 14 days, not just adding fresh nutes but full water change IIRC. Let me shout at @Rexer to start with also you will probably benefit from botanicare hydroguard, this may not be sold in your country due to trade restrictions and tariffs etc but you can look it up to find the name of the beneficial bacterium and search from there to see if it’s available under another brand name. This stuff prevents root rot which is common in hydro

Thanks, I will take any help I can get... I have two chambers; a 27 gal. root chamber that completely drains (no pooled solution on the bottom) into a 5 gal. resovoir.

I really had no idea what I was getting into when I started this project but I always seem to gravitate to a challenges of this caliber...from some of the threads I have read, it sounds pretty easy to lose a plant to something or another so it's incredible my one plant is still alive when you consider this is my first attempt with a DIY aero setup.

I have been pretty fortunate so far and just need to make it another 4 weeks without screwing anything up too bad. There have been no shortage of lessons learned so far and even a few mechanical failures along the way but I was monitoring things closely and able to correct any issues promply.

I had never thought about flushing the root chamber before but i guess with hindsight being 20/20; the writing is on the bottle I use to mix my nutrients. It is covered with brown residue on the inside from nutrients so it only makes sense that the root chamber would be the same. I just don't know what frequency I should do this. Could it be bad for good bacteria to flush the root zone? I wonder what others are doing with theirs?

I am installing a simple gate valve on the resovoir return line this weekend. This will make it easier for me to re-direct flow from my root chamber, purge my accumulator and flush the system as part of regular maintenance moving forward. This will also make it easier to monitor any leeching before it goes back into my resovior.

There will be plenty of opportunities to do things better on my next run. If I can get a positive harvest this time around, I may be ready to try a photo period next...

 

[Rexer]

I've looked into it a bit, but have not run Aeroponics. My understanding is the concept is the same as running a DWC (or RDWC), except the nutes is passed through misters onto the roots.
I think @bluter has run with aeroponics?
I did take a quick peek through your journal. Very nice setup, you seem to catch on to a lot of what went wrong and how to re-approach an issue. What nutes are you using?

 

[lvumlow]

I have never done this before so I cannot compare my nutrients to any other brand and have no idea of what to expect. They were recommended to me from a friend.

I noticed in my journal that my EC levels have been too high for most of the 1/2 half of the grow but I never saw signs of nutrient burn (I think I was trying to elevate my EC slowly until I found the point where you just start to see nutrient burn and them back off?). I am surprised that I deviated from labeled instructions (who knows what was goin through my mind) but maybe the heavy feeding along with any specific attributes of this particular brand of nutrient contributed to excess build up? It was very heavy. After my first thorough flush, my waste levels had an EC of almost 5.0. I expected to see buildup on the bottom of the chamber but that seemed to be pretty high. It is important to clarify that this is what exited my root chamber after a heavy rinse and NOT the levels of my feeding solution going in (I always maintained that (or tried).

Since my root chamber has a simple bulkhead on the bottom of my tote for drainage, there are small channels in the plastic mold where a small amount of solution will not drain but it is a vary small amount (certainly nothing that would lean towards a DWC condition). They may have been collecting sediment throughout the grow (Approx. 90 days) and when I elevated on side to help drain it - all of that crap came out? I do clean the reservoir upon every change but have never performed a full system purge and flush of the root chamber. I do run a system maintenance solution in my feeding formula regularly that serves as a detergent to help keep the system clean but not sure how far that will go towards eliminating buildup.

So far, I have had no mister clogging or anything you would expect from buildup or major problems besides chasing environmental parameters (I got caught a little unprepared on that one but we live and learn, right?) and a mild calcium deficiency but that was an easy fix. I will feel much better after I get a grow or two under my belt so I have some baseline experience of what to expect. I am flying completely blind on this one.

The best strategy I have found for nutrient levels so far is to follow the recommended dosage on the nutrients and monitor your reservoir and waste EC levels to determine how balanced the system is. If the EC drops, I will increase levels slightly until it is stabile and if it climbs, I will replace some volume of the reservoir and replace with water to dilute until in the right range. I use a data logger from Ubibot (GS1) that has been very helpful for my journaling but it only tracks, Lux/Temp/Humid/CO2. I see they just released a GS2 that adds EC and pH so I am considering adding that to my arsenal for the next grow. I appreciate having the SMS alert options and the ability to query any specific timeframe for data throughout the grow.

Currently, I have a simple white dry erase board with a calendar that I document every days EC levels so I can go back in time to see what it did or where the system starts to drift and which way. I also take a clear photo of the plant every day and if something goes strange occurs, I can go back through my pictures and cross reference the days nutrient levels at that time to help identify what may have led to the change for that day. This has helped me start to learn how to read the plant. This is pretty new to me (I can tell when a plant it too wet or dry but that is about it but I am getting much more confident as I get through this grow but experience is what I need most. I certainly don't want to experiment now that I am in mid-flower so I am just hoping to get through the last phase of flower and apply any real tweaks to the next grow.

I am also curious about how to zero in on optimal root feeding levels (cycle times for various stages) I try to back off my timing so the root structure is just moist but does not have water droplets balled up on it. Once I get close to that I feel like the chamber smells musty and i get worried i have gone too far and increase my times? It is the uncertainty that is frustrating because everyone has a different way of setting cycle times. I wonder if I can install a waterproof night-vision camera in my root zone without causing any adverse effects from the far red IR (950nm)? Would it be clean enough to be helpful?

...soooo many questions!

 

[Rexer]

I have never done this before so I cannot compare my nutrients to any other brand and have no idea of what to expect. They were recommended to me from a friend.

I noticed in my journal that my EC levels have been too high for most of the 1/2 half of the grow but I never saw signs of nutrient burn (I think I was trying to elevate my EC slowly until I found the point where you just start to see nutrient burn and them back off?). I am surprised that I deviated from labeled instructions (who knows what was goin through my mind) but maybe the heavy feeding along with any specific attributes of this particular brand of nutrient contributed to excess build up? It was very heavy. After my first thorough flush, my waste levels had an EC of almost 5.0. I expected to see buildup on the bottom of the chamber but that seemed to be pretty high. It is important to clarify that this is what exited my root chamber after a heavy rinse and NOT the levels of my feeding solution going in (I always maintained that (or tried).

Since my root chamber has a simple bulkhead on the bottom of my tote for drainage, there are small channels in the plastic mold where a small amount of solution will not drain but it is a vary small amount (certainly nothing that would lean towards a DWC condition). They may have been collecting sediment throughout the grow (Approx. 90 days) and when I elevated on side to help drain it - all of that crap came out? I do clean the reservoir upon every change but have never performed a full system purge and flush of the root chamber. I do run a system maintenance solution in my feeding formula regularly that serves as a detergent to help keep the system clean but not sure how far that will go towards eliminating buildup.

So far, I have had no mister clogging or anything you would expect from buildup or major problems besides chasing environmental parameters (I got caught a little unprepared on that one but we live and learn, right?) and a mild calcium deficiency but that was an easy fix. I will feel much better after I get a grow or two under my belt so I have some baseline experience of what to expect. I am flying completely blind on this one.

The best strategy I have found for nutrient levels so far is to follow the recommended dosage on the nutrients and monitor your reservoir and waste EC levels to determine how balanced the system is. If the EC drops, I will increase levels slightly until it is stabile and if it climbs, I will replace some volume of the reservoir and replace with water to dilute until in the right range. I use a data logger from Ubibot (GS1) that has been very helpful for my journaling but it only tracks, Lux/Temp/Humid/CO2. I see they just released a GS2 that adds EC and pH so I am considering adding that to my arsenal for the next grow. I appreciate having the SMS alert options and the ability to query any specific timeframe for data throughout the grow.

Currently, I have a simple white dry erase board with a calendar that I document every days EC levels so I can go back in time to see what it did or where the system starts to drift and which way. I also take a clear photo of the plant every day and if something goes strange occurs, I can go back through my pictures and cross reference the days nutrient levels at that time to help identify what may have led to the change for that day. This has helped me start to learn how to read the plant. This is pretty new to me (I can tell when a plant it too wet or dry but that is about it but I am getting much more confident as I get through this grow but experience is what I need most. I certainly don't want to experiment now that I am in mid-flower so I am just hoping to get through the last phase of flower and apply any real tweaks to the next grow.

I am also curious about how to zero in on optimal root feeding levels (cycle times for various stages) I try to back off my timing so the root structure is just moist but does not have water droplets balled up on it. Once I get close to that I feel like the chamber smells musty and i get worried i have gone too far and increase my times? It is the uncertainty that is frustrating because everyone has a different way of setting cycle times. I wonder if I can install a waterproof night-vision camera in my root zone without causing any adverse effects from the far red IR (950nm)? Would it be clean enough to be helpful?

...soooo many questions!

I'll answer as best I can, though brevity works best for my brain (long story).

Your doing good marking ec & ph everyday, if you have the time you should update your journal daily with those numbers (or as frequently as you can).

I have no experience with those nutes, I'm still a newer grower. But I'll attach a chart that will help you with the EC and how to optimize your nute strength. It's a handy chart, it'll help 80% (ish?) of the time.
Its usually not advised to go full manufacturer nute strengths. They're in the business of selling, not growing. Use your EC/PPM rises to tell you to back off, it'll work 80% of the time. The other 20% is for weird situations (I.e. cold temps can cause funky readings & leaching raising the EC).
I've thought of doing similar with a camera on the roots, but decided any type of light might be a bad idea.

As far as flushing goes, I don't know so I'll steer clear.

I love my sensors too, so I'm gonna be looking at the one you mentioned, sounds fancy

 

[013]

You have done really well getting this far on your own - kudos to you! Drop us a pic or two of the plants so whomever stops in can take a gander at the plants. I do think the continual spray mist will keep camera lens covered with moisture plus roots love air but not light so I don’t know about the far red tho

So for soil or coco grows a lot of newbies measure runoff ppms, in the those media types the runoff contains chemical salts from nutes plus fine sediments from coco or peat moss so the numbers are naturally inflated, this is probably why you had a very high ec coming out.

Anyway dude, you are way beyond my abilities so I will gracefully bow out but I know enough to shout out to get the ball rolling with Rexer or whomever to jump in. You are in great hands Bluter is the man and can grow killer plants in anything from a cup of water to Niagara Falls

 

[lvumlow]

I'll answer as best I can, though brevity works best for my brain (long story).



Thanks for your input, I have already printed this chart and have it taped to my board. I appreciate it and will likely create a post in my grow journal with all the resources like this in one place that I found helpful...

 

[lvumlow]

Since we are talking about roots and the best maintenance practices for the root chamber, I wanted to share some pictures of my roots along the way...

I am growing in a 27 gal. tote with one plant in a 10" net pot. With no real reference, I tried to wing it and experimented a little so if this was the wrong way to do it please chime in..

I left the net pot cage in place in the hopes that the roots will find their way around it and serve to stabilize the plant once she gets larger. This meant that the initial tap root sits way up high above the bottom of the net pot cage so I am not sure if that got me off to a slow start or not (because of the distance to my young tap root) but it seems to have worked out fine. I did not really see any root structures until day 20+ but from that point I have some regular pics to monitor the growth and health of the underworld.

With my inexperience, I would have assumed that if I had nutrient buildup I would see it on the roots but in hindsight that seems pretty silly considering the plant will absorb all nutrients whereas the buildup will be in all the corners and recesses in the container as sediment.

Day 25

Day 31

Day 36

Day 41

Day 50

Day 71 (This was about two weeks ago)

 

[lvumlow]

I'll answer as best I can, though brevity works best for my brain (long story).

Your doing good marking ec & ph everyday, if you have the time you should update your journal daily with those numbers (or as frequently as you can).

I have no experience with those nutes, I'm still a newer grower. But I'll attach a chart that will help you with the EC and how to optimize your nute strength. It's a handy chart, it'll help 80% (ish?) of the time.
Its usually not advised to go full manufacturer nute strengths. They're in the business of selling, not growing. Use your EC/PPM rises to tell you to back off, it'll work 80% of the time. The other 20% is for weird situations (I.e. cold temps can cause funky readings & leaching raising the EC).
I've thought of doing similar with a camera on the roots, but decided any type of light might be a bad idea.

As far as flushing goes, I don't know so I'll steer clear.

I love my sensors too, so I'm gonna be looking at the one you mentioned, sounds fancy

I have been using the Ubibot GS1-AETH1RS for this first pilot run which has been worth every penny. If you are a beginner or home grow DIY'r, this is a great product because it is affordable yet gives you some of the tools that commercial growers utilize on a home grow budget. This product has been wonderful. I added the CO2 sensor for a few bucks more but I cant emphasize how happy i have been with it. I am cursed with some mild OCD so chasing meausurements can drive one crazy if you use garbage instruments - do yourself a favor and get the best quality you can afford.

This is the GS1 (I added the CO2 probe)




This has me covered for a complete archive log for Lux, Temp., Hum. and CO2. (Note: this is not a controller, it just logs data and allows for custom alarms/alerts and online access to live conditions in your grow room).

I built a DIY pH doser (from Grow Mouse on Youtube) that does a great job of regulating my pH so the main thing i am missing now is EC which is where Ubibot's latest product the GS2 comes in the discussion. This is not an add-on but another full-feature logger that I am adding my tent. It will give me all the same features for both pH and EC so I am going to order it today (looks to be pre-order) but it looks interesting.





Here is how I use it in my grow. I have a Wyze IP camera on one side of the plant and hot glued the GS1 on the other side so i can take periodic pictures that will have some important parameters included in each picture (like below). This is very helpful when going back into the history of your grow because you can see the plant along with these important metrics in the background.

 

[Rexer]

I have been using the Ubibot GS1-AETH1RS for this first pilot run which has been worth every penny. If you are a beginner or home grow DIY'r, this is a great product because it is affordable yet gives you some of the tools that commercial growers utilize on a home grow budget. This product has been wonderful. I added the CO2 sensor for a few bucks more but I cant emphasize how happy i have been with it. I am cursed with some mild OCD so chasing meausurements can drive one crazy if you use garbage instruments - do yourself a favor and get the best quality you can afford.

This is the GS1 (I added the CO2 probe)




This has me covered for a complete archive log for Lux, Temp., Hum. and CO2. (Note: this is not a controller, it just logs data and allows for custom alarms/alerts and online access to live conditions in your grow room).

I built a DIY pH doser (from Grow Mouse on Youtube) that does a great job of regulating my pH so the main thing i am missing now is EC which is where Ubibot's latest product the GS2 comes in the discussion. This is not an add-on but another full-feature logger that I am adding my tent. It will give me all the same features for both pH and EC so I am going to order it today (looks to be pre-order) but it looks interesting.





Here is how I use it in my grow. I have a Wyze IP camera on one side of the plant and hot glued the GS1 on the other side so i can take periodic pictures that will have some important parameters included in each picture (like below). This is very helpful when going back into the history of your grow because you can see the plant along with these important metrics in the background.

Some great advice there, and I love your roots. I use a Wyze pan cam, I like the ability to pan around.

Your not doing anything obviously wrong that I can tell. Some is unorthodox, which is always personally appealing. For your lid, if you want, paint the outside black and it'll block the light. I'd consider looking into hooking up an external reservoir, but again that's a personal preference for ease.

 

[Rexer]

@GoogleGenie, hope you don't mind the tag. But any chance you'd be willing to jump in for some advice? Ive got zero experience with aeroponics. Guy has some killer sized roots!

 

[GoogleGenie]

Hey @lvumlow

Thanks for the tag @Rexer.

Regarding flushing. I usually run some plain water through my roots when i do a res change. Not necessarily every time, but certainly if i'm adding/dropping nutrients or proportions.

I'm running RDWC, so i drain my system. Then fill it back up with plain water and let it circulate for a little bit, to wash the old nutrients and any potential salt build up from the root system. This is quite important when you have a large root mass (like your beautiful root ball). I don't fill the system up all the way, about 1/2 to give the roots a rinse. If i have big swings sometimes I use a flushing agent such as FlashKleen (FloraKleen) to help break the salts down.

Also regarding your PH and EC fluctuations. This is the plant responding to your nutrient solution and environment, as you say the plant has the ability to uptake and leech. It's part of the reason I love DWC is because you get to know what your ladies are thinking before it shows in your canopy. Rexer shared a good image which is a good cheat sheet for understanding PH/EC movements.

I keep a close eye on my ladies, especially PH and EC and I try to understand the fluctuations that go beyond my normal ranges, to understand what the ladies are telling me. You're welcome to come along in my journal if you like, the principals are very similar.

You are implementing a recirculating system because you and passing the same nutrient solution through your roots and back into a res. Aeroponics is when you bring water to the air to saturate your roots. Here as i understand it, you are submerging you roots, so you are probably closed to DWC or flood and drain.

Excellent root mass though I see you have Great White on your shelf - Rexer and I are also a fan.

 

[lvumlow]

Some great advice there, and I love your roots. I use a Wyze pan cam, I like the ability to pan around.

Your not doing anything obviously wrong that I can tell. Some is unorthodox, which is always personally appealing. For your lid, if you want, paint the outside black and it'll block the light. I'd consider looking into hooking up an external reservoir, but again that's a personal preference for ease.

I am using and outside reservoir? Are you referring to the nutrients? I have my plant is in a 27 gal. tote with one 10" net pot (this chamber drains completely (no standing solution in the bottom) to a 5 gal. reservoir with an airstone where all my nutrients stay before starting the cycle all over again. I have a small iceprobe chiller on the main 5 gal. reservoir.

As for my lid ... there are two lids hot-glued together with aluminum foil in between them so there is no light penetration. This help me achieve some rigidity for the net pot to support a larger plant.

 

[Rexer]

I am using and outside reservoir? Are you referring to the nutrients? I have my plant is in a 27 gal. tote with one 10" net pot (this chamber drains completely (no standing solution in the bottom) to a 5 gal. reservoir with an airstone where all my nutrients stay before starting the cycle all over again. I have a small iceprobe chiller on the main 5 gal. reservoir.

As for my lid ... there are two lids hot-glued together with aluminum foil in between them so there is no light penetration. This help me achieve some rigidity for the net pot to support a larger plant.

My apologies, on the external reservoir.

Thank you GoogleGenie

 

[lvumlow]

Hoping to revive this thread...

I seem to be on a 5 day cycle whereas I start to see my EC and pH climb? I find it interesting that my plants resovoir seems to be very stabile (EC=+/-0.02) for about 4/5 days while consuming 1.5 to 1.75 gallons of water daily, but once I reach day 4 or 5 the numbers climb slowly. I disconnected my return lines and ran some cycles (about 1/2 gal.) And took some readings; found an EC of almost 5.0 on the first flush. I repeat until the readings come back to normal ranges and find it takes about 5 gallons of flush to get things normal again (my resovoir normally holds about 3 gal. in it).

I know we don't have much action in the Aero section lately but hopefully someone will stumble on it and provide their experience.

My first thoughts are to high of nutrients but since levels stay consistent for almost a week before this occurs I am thinking this is sediment accumulation in the root chamber?

I already have a new design for a larger root chamber that won't have a flat bottom to see if that helps but that will be grow #2. I guess I should still be relatively happy with this first pilot run (actually expected the plant to die so I only planted one seed, lol)

I am currently in week 6 now so I don't want to risk changing too much at this phase but am curious as to what may be causing the issue?

 

[leblanca]

Hello, i read through your post and might be able to offer some advise, i grow aeroponic HPA as well but my system is slightly different than yours, i run drain to waste with 2 sec on and 4 min off timer for my system.
During my 1st grow i found out that nutriment buildup on roots and cause them to die and give ideal growing environment for root rot, for this reason it is essential to have something to clean your system, some people recommend hydroguard but i cant have it in canada so i use a product called Enzyme Komplete, it help maintain a clean system to reduce salt buildup on plant and nozzle clogging.
I also use a water chiller in my reservoire as when summer arrive having 24C water is really bad for root rot.
My EC doesnt change as its drain to waste but my PH always go up slowly so every 2 days i bring it down to 5.5 from 6.5 and wait for it to go back up to bring it down again.
Check through my experimental grow journal if you want to know more.

 

[lvumlow]

I will check it out and appreciate all the feedback I can get. I seem to be able to manage it and plan to switch to a dual resovoir solution to see what can be done to manage the waste? I also have a new root chamber on order that will eliminate a flat bottom as well as provide the diameter and depth needed for a full auto grow cycle (time will tell if it works) without bottoming the roots out.

Thanks again!

 

[Gforce3]

I have been growing aeroponics for years now. One thing I have learned, doing a 2-3 hour “clean water ph 5.8 flush” really enhances my plants when I Rez change. They eat and drink the most when doing this. My plants stay green throughout flower until the final flush. I do a reservoir change once a week and it works out great and keeps my plants healthy. I’ve gone with no res change, every 2 weeks , 4 weeks, every week is the winner. I’m a protectionist so this is what I stay with now and my plants have never been better. I’m sure other farmers succeed with other methods but this is what works best for me. Also after week 3 I raise ppm(500scale) 120 per week with a base of 360ppm.