SweetSue's Cannabis Oil Study Hall

[Bucudinkydow]

Sue, do you feel doing an extraction and retaining the the herb in the mix offers advantages over just adding the the dry decarbed material to the brownies?

 

[SweetSue]

Sue, do you feel doing an extraction and retaining the the herb in the mix offers advantages over just adding the the dry decarbed material to the brownies?

Yes I do. It gives the cannabinoids greater opportunity to join up with the oil molecules. Add liquid sunflower lecithin and you boost absorption, so in the end you have a more bioavailable oil.

They hit faster too. Initial onset is within 20 minutes of ingestion, with the major bounce coming at around 60-90 minutes. A nice, long hang time follows.

When I make brownie oil I add lecithin at the beginning and then leave it overnight in the Instant Pot to give the lecithin time to bundle up the groupings. When I make olive oil for my capsules it goes into the fridge for at least 24 hours to do the same. I don’t worry about that overnight in the cooker and I suspect I’m getting similar results.

My brownies level strong men. I think they’re working. Lol!

 

[SweetSue]

Thanx, Sue.

Would be glad to do a tutorial but I'm presently at el casa del norte for a couple of weeks and all my supplies are at my other home.

I use a conventional herb grinder and lightly pack the cap by hand. Yes, it is labor intensive but have plans to mechanize the process with a coffee grinder and a pill filling tray very shortly.

I consider myself strictly a medicinal user although I do rely on cannabis for some emotional stability soooo...... I generally only put 60-100mg in the size 1 cap which leaves room for about 6-10 drops of MCT oil administered with an eye dropper. I've never been able to force more than 200mg of dried ground herb into a size 1 cap. I use the caps twice a day but only one cap per dose.

This always puts me in a comfortable place. Onset is sometimes a bit inconsistent (I dare say possibly due to stomach content) but generally comes on within 30-60 minutes. The effects are longer lasting than any other modality if ever used. Rather than the typical linear ramp up to a peak and then a steady decline, the effect is fairly stable with only mild ebbs and neaps. Only after about five hours is there a noticeable, gentle decline.

The last batch I made, I used lecithin for the first time. I added it to the MCT oil at a rate of about 20% solution. Added to an indica herb, I noticed no appreciable difference. Added to a sativa blend, I'm having to work really hard to convince myself that it wasn't actually a bit detrimental to the effect. I may revisit this combination with the addition of a chill cycle.

I recently shared this process on another forum. One individual moved up to a size 0 cap on his third use and had a very bad trip. Made me feel very bad so I offer a word of caution.

Interesting.... I’d appreciate it if you’d try the chill cycle - I try to do 24 hours - and get back to us on effect.

And thank you so much for the precise response. This detail helps enormously.

I’ll keep the caution in mind. An infused oil would have a different cannabinoid concentration I’d think, and from the sound of the other guy’s experience your approach may be stronger.

Edibles are greatly affected by the contents of the stomach when the cannabinoids arrive. I’d bet my life someone has a thread on it. Lol!

 

[Bucudinkydow]

I'll put the chill cycle on the top of my to-do list as soon as I get back down south. Thanx.

 

[medmanmike]

Thanx, Sue.

Would be glad to do a tutorial but I'm presently at el casa del norte for a couple of weeks and all my supplies are at my other home.

I use a conventional herb grinder and lightly pack the cap by hand. Yes, it is labor intensive but have plans to mechanize the process with a coffee grinder and a pill filling tray very shortly.

I consider myself strictly a medicinal user although I do rely on cannabis for some emotional stability soooo...... I generally only put 60-100mg in the size 1 cap which leaves room for about 6-10 drops of MCT oil administered with an eye dropper. I've never been able to force more than 200mg of dried ground herb into a size 1 cap. I use the caps twice a day but only one cap per dose.

This always puts me in a comfortable place. Onset is sometimes a bit inconsistent (I dare say possibly due to stomach content) but generally comes on within 30-60 minutes. The effects are longer lasting than any other modality if ever used. Rather than the typical linear ramp up to a peak and then a steady decline, the effect is fairly stable with only mild ebbs and neaps. Only after about five hours is there a noticeable, gentle decline.

The last batch I made, I used lecithin for the first time. I added it to the MCT oil at a rate of about 20% solution. Added to an indica herb, I noticed no appreciable difference. Added to a sativa blend, I'm having to work really hard to convince myself that it wasn't actually a bit detrimental to the effect. I may revisit this combination with the addition of a chill cycle.

I recently shared this process on another forum. One individual moved up to a size 0 cap on his third use and had a very bad trip. Made me feel very bad so I offer a word of caution.

Have you tried caps with only decarbed bud-no oli? Do you find that adding the oil “changes” the effects or efficacy of the herb?

I use decarbed caps at night. Current strain is a heavy Indica testing at 19.8% THC and 0.0% CBD. I take 130mg after supper and another prior to bed. I generally sleep pretty well with this method/dosage. I use infused oil caps during the day.

The infused oil caps seem to last considerable longer than the plain decarb. It’s a different strain so that might impact the amount of time. Your method (adding oil to the decarbed caps) got me thinking it might be worth trying.

Basically, your method sounds like a cold infusion - like making a tincture and not filtering out the mash. Have you noticed a difference between a freshly decarbed/oil added cap vs one made a week or month ago?

As you said, we don’t know what we don’t know. I’m having a hard time grasping that adding the oil as you’ve described pulls out the cannabinoids without heat and in very little time. We, this forum, have spent a whole lotta of time heating our concactions when maybe we don’t have to, the exception being the decarb process.

 

[SweetSue]

When we all started down this path of discovery the research on acid cannabinoids was in early stages, so to speak. What our experimental membership is learning is the acid cannabinoids are more beneficial long-term than anyone imagined.

Oldbear and AKgramma have both put in a considerable amount of time playing with things like adding powdered bud onto salads and chewing on raw buds. What they found was their aches and pains started to drop off and they developed a sense of wellbeing that lingers.

It's becoming glaringly obvious that the best approach with cannabis is as diversified as you can create, both in administration pathways and in formulations. Diversity is a wonderful thing.

 

[Bucudinkydow]

Have you tried caps with only decarbed bud-no oli? Do you find that adding the oil “changes” the effects or efficacy of the herb?

I use decarbed caps at night. Current strain is a heavy Indica testing at 19.8% THC and 0.0% CBD. I take 130mg after supper and another prior to bed. I generally sleep pretty well with this method/dosage. I use infused oil caps during the day.

The infused oil caps seem to last considerable longer than the plain decarb. It’s a different strain so that might impact the amount of time. Your method (adding oil to the decarbed caps) got me thinking it might be worth trying.

Basically, your method sounds like a cold infusion - like making a tincture and not filtering out the mash. Have you noticed a difference between a freshly decarbed/oil added cap vs one made a week or month ago?

As you said, we don’t know what we don’t know. I’m having a hard time grasping that adding the oil as you’ve described pulls out the cannabinoids without heat and in very little time. We, this forum, have spent a whole lotta of time heating our concactions when maybe we don’t have to, the exception being the decarb process.

Good morning Mike, etal.

When I first started using capped ground herb, I didn't use any oil. I was experiencing some mild digestive tract discomfort and a very slow onset. I almost chucked the process when I ran into an article about difficulty of assimilation of dry plant materials. I started adding oil, and later oil tainted with terpene additives, in an effort to "soften" the material and hopefully make it more digestible, not necessarily with expectations of a quick infusion taking place. I doubt that there is any molecular binding taking place in such a short time in the absence of heat.

There's an awful lot of evidence pointing to the fact cannabis is more bioavailable when molecularly linked to a carrier oil and I don't refute this fact. I'm a bit snake bit when it comes to infusing oil. I failed miserably in numerous different procedures of making oil. I eventually bought a magic butter machine and I still have nightmares over the insane amount of really good weed I rendered useless with this thing. So I really don't have a basis of comparison for this as compared dry herb ingestion. I think, bottom line, dry herb simply in the presence of oil may be better assimilated and metabolized than we may think.

You're the second individual that has suggested that aging may possibly enhance the effectiveness of this process. I've been working with an off brand of caps recently that have been seeping a bit at the seal so I've only made a few at the time. I've now got a better brand and will make some caps for longer term storage to test this hypothesis when I return to my "apothecary lab".

I'm on a similar regimen as you except I use a tincture during the day. Interesting comparing thoughts!

 

[SweetSue]

Try freezing the capsules. No seepage when they’re frozen. Do you keep them in the fridge? Ours seep a tiny bit too when they’ve been out too long.

 

[Bucudinkydow]

Thanx Sue. No, I keep them in the medicine chest. Plenty of room there since I've done away with all the mood stabilization meds the VA was pushing, OTC pain meds (almost three year abstinence) and migraine meds! All thanx to cannabis treatment.

The NOW brand I'm using once again now seems to be holding well but I may stick some in the fridge for long term storage. Thanx.

 

[Robileaf]

The Dutch pretty much proved that 110° C for 110 minutes gives you close to a complete decarb.

Is this from a scientific paper that is around here somewhere or is it info you found online? Just interested on where the info came from and if there is more to read on the same subject by the same author such as a journal article..etc. I have found a few scientific papers by digging around here and I enjoy reading them at night.

 

[SweetSue]

Is this from a scientific paper that is around here somewhere or is it info you found online? Just interested on where the info came from and if there is more to read on the same subject by the same author such as a journal article..etc. I have found a few scientific papers by digging around here and I enjoy reading them at night.

Here ya go Robileaf...

Decarb

It’s from the Journal of Microbiology, Feb 2011, titled

Decarboxylation of Δ 9-tetrahydrocannabinol: Kinetics and molecular modeling

Have fun reading.

 

[SweetSue]

Thanx Sue. No, I keep them in the medicine chest. Plenty of room there since I've done away with all the mood stabilization meds the VA was pushing, OTC pain meds (almost three year abstinence) and migraine meds! All thanx to cannabis treatment.

The NOW brand I'm using once again now seems to be holding well but I may stick some in the fridge for long term storage. Thanx.

I’m assuming you make small batches? Cooked oils go rancid stored on the shelf. I don’t believe it effects the efficacy of the medicine, but it smells and tastes pretty nasty.

Makes me smile to hear a member admit they’ve eliminated those damned drugs.

 

[medmanmike]

Yes, it is great to start with material that is tested and a known quantity. I find one of the biggest obstacles we all face when trying to get the most potent or consistent medicine is not knowing the percentage of the material we are starting with or being able to test the final result. In a few years I hope hand held testers are more cost effective allowing people to easily test quality at home. I can ask people for their pointers on doing things this way or that way but in the end without actual tests, it is all just a shot in the dark. We experiment and test by administering the medicine and judging based on effects and comparison to our last batches, but it is next to impossible to streamline the process and fine tune for optimal potency without testing the final product.

On a side note, I was thinking of going with a pressure cooker after reading peoples feedback but instead I am adding a DIY temperature controller to my crock pot. Once finished, I can calibrate and mark the controls for the various temps needed to complete the process. Right now, I use a small crock pot and a digital thermometer with a temp alarm. It is a bit of a hassled because I have to keep switching back and forth from high to warm to keep the "stew" within an acceptable range. It will be nice to set it and forget it. Should be building the "gadget" this week.... Maybe I can post some pics and instructions.

Sue, just wanted to share an experience I recently had regarding “testing”.

Took a sample of Big Bang to the lab. Results came back with a THC level of 19.9%.

With a phenomenal harvest - avg over 5 oz per plant, I was way over my limit. Decided to see if a local dispensary would take some “overages”. They did but required another test - FROM THE SAME LAB. ThIs test came back at 13.4%. I spoke with the lab about the discrepancy between the samples. They were concerned enough that they reran the tests finding the same results.

I, of course, selected a bud from a top cola, the dispensary just grabbed one from the middle of the bag. Consulting with the lab, dispensary and other growers the conclusion was that the bud the dispensary grabbed was less mature ( lower bud) than what I submitted with less THC.

My new learning was to be more selective when harvesting. Meaning only take the top ⅓, ½ , etc of the branch/cola and let the bottom develop more before harvesting.

The diff in % resulted in a 50% reduction in what they paid me for the product. Ouch!

My point is that one shouldn’t expect the entire harvest to be the same %. Though the avg of 19.9 & 13.4 isn’t all that shabby (of course the dispensary would only accept the lower amount) it will make a diff when calculating dosage, etc.

 

[SweetSue]

Sue, just wanted to share an experience I recently had regarding “testing”.

Took a sample of Big Bang to the lab. Results came back with a THC level of 19.9%.

With a phenomenal harvest - avg over 5 oz per plant, I was way over my limit. Decided to see if a local dispensary would take some “overages”. They did but required another test - FROM THE SAME LAB. ThIs test came back at 13.4%. I spoke with the lab about the discrepancy between the samples. They were concerned enough that they reran the tests finding the same results.

I, of course, selected a bud from a top cola, the dispensary just grabbed one from the middle of the bag. Consulting with the lab, dispensary and other growers the conclusion was that the bud the dispensary grabbed was less mature ( lower bud) than what I submitted with less THC.

My new learning was to be more selective when harvesting. Meaning only take the top ⅓, ½ , etc of the branch/cola and let the bottom develop more before harvesting.

The diff in % resulted in a 50% reduction in what they paid me for the product. Ouch!

My point is that one shouldn’t expect the entire harvest to be the same %. Though the avg of 19.9 & 13.4 isn’t all that shabby (of course the dispensary would only accept the lower amount) it will make a diff when calculating dosage, etc.

What a timely share Mike. I have a Red Diesel that is done on top but not really on the bottom. I’ve been looking at her and considering the wisdom of my first partial harvest.

Now.....what you say applies if it’s the THC alone that is of greatest concern, which it is when you get paid for the THC content. But from the perspective of making medicine in your home kitchen I don’t see it as much of a concern.

I actually prefer a more diversified cannabinoid profile in my homemade cannabis medicines.

This particular harvest I referred to is for recreational purposes. I may try the staggered harvest. Thank you for bringing this up.

 

[Cowbelle]

Sue, I have a question about decarboxylating my Cannatonic buds - joined this group last year, and last spring started my own grow. It's outside, so maturing right now. I've read in a couple of places that if your into it for the pain relief, ie CBD, as opposed to the THC, you don't need to decarb. The Cannatonic is supposed to be 1:1 balanced, again, what I've read that I need for chronic inflammation and pain . Do I need to decarb? I have the first buds curing, and many more coming on, and can't wait to see if it works for me. I'm doing oil infusion in the crockpot and then putting it in capsules ( have been experimenting with trim and trim from friends. It makes me sleep very well, but doesn't do much for the pain. I do use it topically also, but don't get any noticeable relief. Massaging it in feels good, but I'm hoping the real thing will be better. Thanks for any input - I'm a rank beginner at this, and hoping desperately for it to work.
Judith

 

[Chris Scorpio]

I've always decarbed my CBD strains whether in the oil bath itself or in the oven

Not sure where u saw CBD dosent need to be decarbed but in my personal experiences it does

 

[SweetSue]

There’s growing evidence that the acid cannabinoids are as effective as the neutral forms we decarb for, and CBDa in particular is demonstrating effectiveness as a pain reliever.

However, it’s not all that cut and dried. It may work for you, and it may not. I don’t see where you have anything to lose by trying a non-decarbed batch to see if it works for you. If not try decarbing. If that doesn’t work begin micro dosing in more THC (in balance with more CBD) until you do find relief.

One way or another you’ll find relief, but you won’t know what works for you until you experiment a little. What you get from leaves Judith won’t be the same as what you’ll get from flowers.

I’m beginning to wonder if the best oils might not be ones that have a wide range of cannabinoids, both acid and decarbed.

 

[Cowbelle]

Yes, I know my buds will be more potent than the leaves I've been using - can't wait to try them!! I do pretty much micro dose - couple of capsules before bed, another in the middle of the night, about 3 spread out during the day. I can only say that it takes the edge off my pain, and I sleep well, but it isn't really doing what I need yet. Am hoping for actual relief, while still being functional.

 

[Robileaf]

Sue, I have a question about decarboxylating my Cannatonic buds - joined this group last year, and last spring started my own grow. It's outside, so maturing right now. I've read in a couple of places that if your into it for the pain relief, ie CBD, as opposed to the THC, you don't need to decarb. The Cannatonic is supposed to be 1:1 balanced, again, what I've read that I need for chronic inflammation and pain . Do I need to decarb? I have the first buds curing, and many more coming on, and can't wait to see if it works for me. I'm doing oil infusion in the crockpot and then putting it in capsules ( have been experimenting with trim and trim from friends. It makes me sleep very well, but doesn't do much for the pain. I do use it topically also, but don't get any noticeable relief. Massaging it in feels good, but I'm hoping the real thing will be better. Thanks for any input - I'm a rank beginner at this, and hoping desperately for it to work.
Judith

Yes, you still need to decarb, to take the acidic form of the cannabinoids to their neutral forms.
So THCa and CBDa ->decarb->THC and CBD. In my experience CBD is anti-inflammatory and THC for pain. CBD can help with some pain also if the pain is caused by inflammation. That being said, from my research most say they work better together.. Recently people have been playing with the Acidic forms also, but IMO for what you are after, you need to decarb.

Using a crockpot can be tricky for infusion because it may not be getting hot enough OR it is getting too hot. I use a crockpot but I also monitor it with a digital thermometer and they are known to get pretty hot. I have noticed some think that the low setting changes the temp when in most cases it only changes the time it takes to get to full temp. My small crockpot can get upwards of 260F which is too hot for what we want. Not all are the same though, some do change temp with setting. You would need to experiment and figure out how your crock works on various settings.
I would also strongly suggest getting a digital thermometer.

I should also note, if you left the oil infusing for a long time in a unmonitored crockpot, which was generating too much heat you may have degraded some of your THC into CBN, which is very sleepy stuff.

Let's start here, What is your recipe for the crock pot?
The last time you made it, How many grams of cannabis to how many ml of oil?

We were all beginners at one point.

 

[SweetSue]

Yes, I know my buds will be more potent than the leaves I've been using - can't wait to try them!! I do pretty much micro dose - couple of capsules before bed, another in the middle of the night, about 3 spread out during the day. I can only say that it takes the edge off my pain, and I sleep well, but it isn't really doing what I need yet. Am hoping for actual relief, while still being functional.

When you can begin micro dosing the THC in. I’m pretty sure you’ll find a sweet spot, and it’ll likely be lower than you anticipated.

@Robileaf, I’ve spoken with members that had a dramatic level of relief with CBD creams, but as you point out, they have inflammation to deal with.

The more I research the more drawn I am to view cannabis as a food. I think Oldbear and AKgramma are closer to the most effective use of cannabis. The acid cannabinoids may be the preventative medicine we all wish we’d found when we were younger.

When I started this study I was of the same opinion as you, THC for the pain, CBD for inflammation. These days I’m not so certain. Martin Lee advocates a high CBD medicine (which means anything at a balanced ratio or more CBD-dominant) with as much THC as the patient is comfortable with.

That statement sounds just as useful now as it did when I first read it.

Oh yeah.... I stopped to drop this off before I forgot to document it.

I have a friend in her late 70s, recently diagnosed with breast cancer with metastasis to other body regions. I’ve been supplying her with a high THC body butter that she’s been steadily applying to those areas identified as being home to tumors. She’s just begun a run of chemo and radiation.

In an attempt to give her a fighting chance against the damages that typically accompany conventional cancer treatment I’ve made her an oil from my Jamaican, a chemovar Neiko also grew, and his lab results give me confidence that she’s getting just under a true 1:2 THC:CBD. Without testing I’m just guessing but I believe the oil is in the neighborhood of 5 mg/ml of THC and 7.5 mg/ml of CBD.

I started her off with 1/4 that amount, twice a day. She’s now getting about 2.5 mg of THC and about 3.75 mg of CBD in each capsule. The capsules I’m leaving for her are around 3.75 mg THC and 5.6 mg of CBD. I’m encouraging her to work up to 3-4 capsules a day, with one capsule taken 30 minutes before each radiation or chemo treatment.

She’s been real faithful about taking that dose before treatment.

I’m moving and had to tear my garden down. I’ve used what I have on hand to make her a supply that’ll carry her for the next two months while I work out her next stage. I’ll need to learn to blend some isolate into an available chemovar. It’s a sobering responsibility to offer help to a cancer patient.

CBD capsules

• SweetSue
• Sep 26, 2018

I’m leaving her with 242 capsules. That’ll hold her for a while.

I have lots of oil to prepare and get encapsulated for the daughter before I leave town. I’m gonna be a busy canna cook.

I really need to get to bed now. Lol!