Help with LED setup?

[DDCollect]

I have read all the forums and I am still confused on an LED setup. I live where its 100 degrees outside and the electricity is extremely high, so HPS/MH isnt much of an option after AC costs.

Here is what I have
20,000 budget for entire room (supplies, AC, lighting, drywall?, electrical, vents, etc)

I have about 500 sqft of space to use, and plan on sub dividing it, using lower powered led veg lights for the mothers and phased veg. I would like to do as many plants as possible on my budget (under 99) with attempting to do a staggered monthly harvest, something like 30 flower/30 flower/30 veg, and then my mothers.

Thanks for the help, I have done some grows with LED at another place of business, but I am not happy with the lights I purchased for flowering, although they are perfect for VEG.

Im not sure if I posted this in the right section, but lighting is my biggest ? mark right now

I have looked into Diamond series, Solarflare, Blackstar and a few others, there are just too many to chose, and I dont want to screw this decision up

 

[Hosebomber]

There are a large number of variables, so I'll start with the basics.

When designing your room, make sure that you have ample room to move around your grow room and check on, move, adjust, trim, clean, and harvest. Likewise, make sure that you have good airflow around each section of each room. Once you have the rooms designed and laid out, then comes the real questions.

1) How large is the grow area of each stage? (clone/seedling, veg, and flower)
For this, you need the area that the plants will be growing in. You don't need to count the area around your grow beds/planters/troughs etc. that you will move around in or store materials, water, air conditioners etc.

2) Exactly what type of climate and grow area are you using? Temperatures of 100 F are easy to deal with if you have >10% humidity most of the time (desert environment). You can use a swamp cooler and increase the RH (which you will need to do) and decrease the temperature. Thus using less power and being cheaper to purchase and install. Likewise, using a few thousand dollars to insulate the area will save you triple that amount in power over the course of one to two years.

As for the LEDs, Advance makes a good product as does CLW. Stay away from blackstar. There are a few Chinese companies that sell direct to consumer that may be worth looking into as well.

 

[DDCollect]

thanks Hose, I have been reading alot of your stuff. I will be converting my garage, so I was going to insulate and drywall while I was doing the electrical setup, I live near Palm Springs, as they say its a dry heat. My veg room should be approx 15x10, and thats all free ground area, as everything I use I mount on the walls/ceiling. My flower area is 20x15 with same all wall mounted etc. and I am leaving about 100 sqft for a drying area. I will be having the reservoirs and supplies stored outside the room so its all free space primarily

I never thought about a swamp cooler though, was just going to go HVAC.

I made my initial lighting purchase from China, but I dont want to make that mistake again, the price was great ($510 each for 680w) but I just am not happy when comparing it to my friends grows with HPS. They keep telling me go HPS, but the long term costs scare me, especially when during the summer here my electric bill already hovers around 700

 

[Hosebomber]

With the RH in your area a swamp cooler will not work as well as some of the climates to the north of you (Mojave, Death Valley, even Barstow, and Victorville area). You tend to stay in the 30-50% humidity. However, having a small portable unit may help keep you RH in the proper range and lessen the stress on the AC unit.

Using high output T5 lights in your clone/seedling section of the veg area can greatly reduce your energy cost and work very well for that stage. They also have a lower start-up cost. Using progressively stronger lighting as you move toward the flowering stage has seemed to produce better in my experience.

Again, without being in your grow area and seeing exactly how you plan to set it all up, it is very hard to give exact information. If you separate into rows, you can go with lower wattage lights, keep them closer, and receive more photons with less energy and heat generation. If you are trying to maximize output in minimal space, cluster growing with larger lights can be more effective. You could possibly reduce your veg and drying area by nearly half and use that area to increase your flower room (where the plants will be larger and take up more space).

 

[rokko1337]

Hi, sorry for using your theme OP. Hosebomber, what do you think about this led color ratio?

740nm - 4
660nm - 20
640nm - 10
610-615nm - 4
470nm - 4
455nm - 2
430nm - 4
380nm - 2

RED:BLUE:IR:UV

34 : 10 : 4 : 2

setup - growtent Homebox mini 30x30x60 (cm), 50x2W led.

 

[Hosebomber]

I would drop the 610's and the 470's and go with 3 cool whites and 5 warm whites. They give off less green and add more blue to the ratio. It will also give a smoother blending of the spectra.

 

[rokko1337]

I don't think it's a good idea to replace 470nm with white:

But agree with 610-615, maybe it's better to replace 455nm with CW?
Also, what temperatures better to choose (for 610 and 455 replacement)?

P.S. I cannot understand what wavelength is better, 470 or 455.

Setup #2

740nm - 4
660nm - 20
640nm - 10
WW - 4
CW - 2
455nm - 4
430nm - 4
380nm - 2

RED:BLUE:WW:CW:IR:UV
30 : 8 : 4 : 2 : 4 : 2

I'll have 2 boards (24 diodes each) + 2 UV, so I need even number of diodes.

 

[Hosebomber]

I'm not sure where you got the first picture, but that is not the spectral distribution that I have. Could you please provide a link to the article that gives those spectral peaks. Chlorophyll A peaks at 430 and B at 453 according to my research. That appears to be a LED sellers graph changing the numbers ever so slightly to make it look like their product hits all the right wavelengths.

If you look at the spectral distribution of cool neutral and warm whites you will see that my previous statement still stands.

 

[DDCollect]

Thanks for your reply.
The price of the 1200 watt is 640 usd
Currently , we are promoting this light , so if you have interest , i can try to ask a discount for you.
The coverage of this light is mainly depend on the height you hang the light.
Generally , if you put the light 1 meter high , the coverage will be around 8 square meter.
Here is the specification:
Item
Value
Item
Value
Size
841X385X100mm
Power
750W (240x3W)+
(96X5W)
Working environme
-20~40℃
Lumens
18480Lm
Storage condition
-40~85℃
Lifespan
50,000 Hours
Work frequency
50/60 Hz
Packing
926x454x170mm/1pcs
Voltage
AC110V/265V
Lighting Area
8m²( 1m high )
Lighting time per day
12-18 Hours
Input current
6.8 – 3.2A
Height above the Plant
15CM/30CM/45CM/60CM/80CM/100CM
Color
Red/Blue/Red& Blue
Lux (centre )
43258/15cm,41443/30cm,20758/45cm,18343/60cm
N.W
14.7kg/pcs
Wavelength
660nm,630,410,440,450,470,610,3000K,12000k,740,520,590nm
GW
17.8kg/1pcs

 

[DDCollect]

out of the blue, I got an email from Black Dog Manufacturer, 1200 watt light, seems pretty big, really affordable, wondering how well it would really work

 

[rokko1337]

If you look at the spectral distribution of cool neutral and warm whites you will see that my previous statement still stands.

How about 4 x 2700K for 610nm and 2 x 6500K + 2 x 455nm for 470nm

 

[Hosebomber]

DD, that light is a ~750 watt LED not a 1200... I have seen a few grows with that companies product. While they are not the best by far, they do produce okay. I personally do not own one of that brand so I can't give you personal experience, but I would treat it as a HID light... 50 watts per square foot.

Rokko, It has nothing to do with the age of the research in this case. Nearly all of the lower wavelengths are off by roughly 10 nano-meters. The post of that admits that he altered the photos but to what extent I am unsure. The higher wavelengths he tends to only be off by 1 to 3 nano-meters.

 

[DDCollect]

how is it 750? Just curious cause I see a lot like this

I view it as 240x3w + 96x5w?

 

[Hosebomber]

Here is the specification:...
Power
750W (240x3W)+
(96X5W)...

Namely, it states that it draws 750 watts.
For 3 watt LEDs, the diode is driven at ~700mA. The normal voltage draw for a blue or white diode is 2.7-3.2 volts. Red LEDs draw less voltage at ~ 2.4-2.8
3V (average) x .7A = 2.1 watts
240x2.1= 504 watts
5 watt diodes are powered at 1A or 1000mA. As above, the pull about the same voltage at a higher amperage.
95x3= 285watts

504+285 = 789watts total pulled.
Add into the equation that the majority will be red diodes using less voltage and the fact that they are probably driven at ~600-660mA for the 3 watt diodes and ~850mA for the 5 watt diodes (to reduce the heat and increase the life of the diode), efficiency loss from the drivers and again most diodes being red and not blue or white and you have ~ 750 watts at the plug.

 

[rokko1337]

Last setup, Hosebomber reply please:

740 nm - 4
660 nm - 20
640 nm - 10
warm white(2700 K) - 4
470 nm - 4
450 nm - 4
430 nm - 4

RED:BLUE:WW:IR
30 : 12 : 4 : 4

 

[rokko1337]

Or maybe f**k IR spectrum too and stay with this for the first time:

660 nm - 22
640 nm - 10
warm white(2700 K) - 4
470 nm - 4
450 nm - 4
430 nm - 4


RED:BLUE:WW
32 : 12 : 4

3W diodes powered as 2W.

 

[Hosebomber]

I'm a little disappointed in the first article. They say they bought 9 panels but never gave the ratios of any of them. Likewise, they only listed 4 of the 5 "flower" panels they say they purchased.

As for the spectra of your panel. 730nm is not IR... it is called far red. It can still be seen by the human eye. True IR doesn't really start until around 800nm.

I still hold to the previous mentioned. drop the 470nm and go with cool whites and keep the 730nm. The far reds with the combination of deep reds (660nm) provides the Emerson Enhancement Effect.

 

[rokko1337]

That article has 5 parts - https://growblu.com/blog/category/published-grows/
PDF from site of used lights - https://ledgrowshows.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Wavelengths.pdf
Each lamp has list of wavelengths - LED Grow Lights | Shop LED Grow Lights

730 nm - 4
660 nm - 20
640 nm - 10
warm white(2700 K) - 4
cold white(6500 K) - 2
450 nm - 5
430 nm - 5

P.S. I have seen many sources with spectrograms, those were showing that 470nm is required for chlorophyll B and all Carotenoids (only for cannabis)

 

[Hosebomber]

The PDF is actually pretty good information. Most of their sources is ones that I have read as well. Their discussion covering green light doesn't give the full details of the research however. Namely, that those effects they found in green lighting only occurred when the plant was over saturated with white light. I've linked the article a few times on this site and others. As for the Carotenoids, the process that they use doesn't differ from species to species. It may be a different photo receptor in a different species, but all research holds that those receptors identified hold the same peak absorption regardless of what plant they are found in. Some of those are as follows:

Alpha Carotene 442
Alpha Carotene 444
Alpha Carotene 478
Alpha Carotene 480
Beta Carotene 425
Beta Carotene 451
Beta Carotene 480
Canthaxanthin 466
Zeaxanthin 423
Zeaxanthin 451
Zeaxanthin 483
Zeta Carotene 423
Zeta Carotene 451
Zeta Carotene 483

As you can see most of them do have a peak in the 470nm range, but that is not their only peak and generally not the strongest peak.

 

[rokko1337]

Ok, thank you, I'll stay with setup from my previous post.

P.S. What do you think about lenses and what angles are better for blue/red in short distance from buds (5-6 cm, 2W diodes, lst+scrog)?