Monarch caterpillar frass as a soil additive?

[Stoneface Jack]

Hi guys,
My sister raises Monarch Butterfly caterpillars for release and those little buggers really pump out a lot of s#!t. I've been wondering if I should save it, let it cook over the winter with a little compost, and use it as a soil additive. I've seen a lot of frass products lately, and I'm just starting my research on it, but my google-fu is weak.

Thoughts?

 

[013]

Sure insect frass is a valid soil component. But I would mix up all of the soil additives not just frass and compost and let them cook together over winter. Here’s the organic soil thread Organic

 

[Stoneface Jack]

Sure insect frass is a valid soil component. But I would mix up all of the soil additives not just frass and compost and let them cook together over winter. Here’s the organic soil thread Organic

Thanks for the input. I'm starting to think it may be better as a top dress than as an amendment. It seems the toxic compounds the caterpillars absorb from the milkweed plants are excreted in the frass to some extent, and I'm not sure whether or not the cannabis plants would be able to take them up. They do seem to be good at taking up a wide range of substances.
I should be able to use less of it in a top dress, reducing the amount the plants could take up. If any of the toxins survive the cooking process. I don't think the amounts would be dangerous either way, but better safe than sorry. I'll keep researching, this would be for the 2022 season so there's plenty of time.

 

[Stoneface Jack]

I'll ask in that thread too. Thanks.

 

[013]

The link was mostly intended for reading and research but that’s cool too. The same folks from over there respond to questions over here too

Cannabis & hemp both are considered an accumulator, I’ve read where its been used to clean up toxic nuclear and industrial sites. As far as cooking I would probably sterilize it at 220F for 20 minutes first then add it to your soil cook. I use 6 cups of wet alfalfa pellets in a 3 gallon bucket to attract flies, when the bucket is full of larvae I put the lid on tight and leave it in the hot sun for a week, once the larvae are dead I sterilize them in the oven and use for top dress

 

[Enjoil]

Oh my! What are you about to do? Baked maggot soup top dressing? Ewww, that’s nasty! (In my best Cleveland Brown voice.)

I’m not going to tell you want you should do. But, to me, that sounds like a really bad idea. Look up some good stuff like sprouted seed tea for plants. Beetle juice, beetle juice beetle jui......

 

[013]

Not to be a smart arse but I have looked them up, it’s where I got the idea in the first place.

Alfalfa pellets are a natural source of triacontinal which is a plant growth regulator. In my case the larvae feed on the alfalfa pellets plus their carcasses contain many other beneficials. I also use SST’s but in the organic and living soil world people use all kinds of weird things added to their soils. It’s no different than using rabbit poop, crab meal, fermented plant juice, biochar or fruit peels.

Dead bugs are good for soil. They are said to be an accelerator of plant growth in the gardens. As long as the dead bugs in your soil were not killed with chemicals or pesticides, it’s perfectly fine to leave them be. In fact, we already know that organic matter of all types decomposes nicely to improve soil health, dead bugs are no different.

In fact, science has shown certain types of dead bugs are incredibly beneficial. According to a three-year study at UC Davis, one researcher found that cicada carcasses greatly increased the soil’s nitrogen levels as well as beneficial bacterial and fungal growth.

In fact, in that same study, some varieties of plant grew almost ten percent larger than flowers whose soil was not enriched with dead cicada bugs. source Outside link - Are dead bugs good for soil?

 

[Stoneface Jack]

The link was mostly intended for reading and research but that’s cool too. The same folks from over there respond to questions over here too

Lol, understood.

I'm mostly just wondering if we're wasting something that can be used by putting it in the municipal compost bins. If it's something I can use, and we're producing it anyway, why not?
My thinking was that by adding compost I could jump start the "cooking" process. I really wasn't thinking of it as an additive to a supersoil blend, mostly because I don't have the storage space for the bulk ingredients. I think I'll experiment with some of what we produce this year.
Thanks for the thoughts and info @013, looks like I've got plenty more research to do.

 

[013]

I have plenty of room for an outdoor mulch pile but I do my soil cooks in several Rubbermaid 32 gallon plastic trash cans, there are many pics of growers here spreading out an 8 X 8 tarp indoors to mix their peat and soil amendments. But yes if you have insect frass then use it for your plants benefit, it could be cooked into the soil or used as topdress just like worm castings.

Check out NuttyProfessor he’s always making soil amendments, composts, various kinds of ferments and teas. Here is link to one of his new journals NuttyProfessor

 

[Stoneface Jack]

I have plenty of room for an outdoor mulch pile but I do my soil cooks in several Rubbermaid 32 gallon plastic trash cans, there are many pics of growers here spreading out an 8 X 8 tarp indoors to mix their peat and soil amendments. But yes if you have insect frass then use it for your plants benefit, it could be cooked into the soil or used as topdress just like worm castings.

Check out NuttyProfessor he’s always making composts, ferments and teas. Here is link to one of his new journals NuttyProfessor

I'll check it out. Thanks again, you've been really helpful.

 

[SmokingWings]

My thinking was that by adding compost I could jump start the "cooking" process. I really wasn't thinking of it as an additive to a supersoil blend, mostly because I don't have the storage space for the bulk ingredients. I think I'll experiment with some of what we produce this year.

I found that more room is needed for the mixing of the soil. Storage space is nothing in comparison. A couple of plastic trash cans like @013 mentions. Or, my favorite for the last several years is putting the mix in those yellow buckets that a particular brand of 'cat litter' comes in. Snap the lid back on, then lift the flap part and lay a thin stick across the rim of the bucket to keep the flap from dropping all the way back down and sealing. That way the mix can still breath for awhile.

Just keep rain or snow water from getting in and making the soil soggy. If you or someone in the house does not like the yellow color from the plastic showing then paint the buckets with 'Rusty Metal Primer' from Rustoleum. It will stick to the plastic for awhile, a year or two before it starts to flake off a bit. Repaint every couple of years if needed.

 

[Stoneface Jack]

Thanks. Need to declutter a bit before I start up the supersoil.
Couple of years ago we took over a metric ton out of the garage (according to the receipts from the dump), and there still wasn't room for my car.
Might be best to start small, add a few other things like banana peels, other organic stuff easy to source in small amounts, make my own version of those organic dry top dress products or something.

Lol, you mean these?

Looks like lots of people re-use them.
I wonder if the cat would use that brand. She's kind of weird, likes to stand on the edges of the litterbox without touching the litter to go. Maybe it doesn't feel good on her paws. Definitely have room for a couple of those.

 

[SmokingWings]

Yep, them are the ones. Also use the ones that are shorter and look almost square.

They make great totes for stuff and have a couple in the back of the truck. Use them on the boat to store spare clothes in case of getting caught in the rain. Several along the side of the garage to hold stuff. Got stuff everywhere so those buckets come in handy.

Most of those buckets are 5 gallon if anyone is keeping track.

 

[Enjoil]

Yep, them are the ones. Also use the ones that are shorter and look almost square.

They make great totes for stuff and have a couple in the back of the truck. Use them on the boat to store spare clothes in case of getting caught in the rain. Several along the side of the garage to hold stuff. Got stuff everywhere so those buckets come in handy.

Most of those buckets are 5 gallon if anyone is keeping track.

I’m wondering how many buckets you got stacked in your basement rn. Lol. I’m wanting to start playing with los after playing with coco for a while. I’m scared! Bug juice and bat poop soups! Ewww! Ima try a few this summer outside, I got a few plants that vegged all winter I will plug them into some super soil. Man I just learned about frass last night! Ewww! Very cool though! I used a bottle of stuff that had chitin in it, I’m not sure if it did anything or not. It was derived from oyster shells not from bugs, I read that the bud derived chitin is more easily utilized by the plants and it makes them build strong cells to protect themselves from an anticipated attack that is hopefully not coming! Lol

 

[013]

When you mix your soil it needs to be watered, this starts the cooking process. I dont fill my garbage cans all the way to the top but SmokingWings is spot on - it needs a little air exchange. After a few days when you remove the lid there should be beads of condensed water inside the lid, the sweat means it’s cooking. Also depending on temp & seasonal factors it may be wise to fill your tub when it’s sitting on a spacer, I use a couple of cinder blocks with a 2 X 10 wood scrap, point is the soil might not cook right when the tub is sitting on cold concrete slab indoors away from direct sunlight - like in basements & garages. Plan on cooking the soil for at least 30 days for super soil and I think it’s more like 90 days for living organic soil. 420 members Bobrown14, VanStank & Nunyabiz are really skilled on this stuff

 

[SmokingWings]

Also depending on temp & seasonal factors it may be wise to fill your tub when it’s sitting on a spacer, I use a couple of cinder blocks with a 2 X 10 wood scrap, point is the soil might not cook right when the tub is sitting on cold concrete slab indoors away from direct sunlight - like in basements & garages.

I think that sitting on basement floors is not a problem. The temp will not vary from 55 F. The soil outside in my southeast Michigan garden is probably close to 40 F these days (the water temp at the Coast Guard Station on Belle Isle in the Detroit River is 41F as of this morning). I turn some over everyday for the exercise and yesterday there were more worms of several kinds and of all sizes so I think that the cooking soil on a basement floor is OK.

Putting a newly mixed soil into an unheated garage is a different story. The concrete slab that most garages are sitting on will not stay at 55F and will drop slowly, sometimes getting into the 30s F until spring rolls around again. Them there colder temps in the garage will mean that a soil mix will cook slowly, like cooking a pot roast in a slow cooker on low takes longer than when turned to high. Eventually the soil is ready just like the pot roast will be ready. Depends on how long the person wants to wait.

 

[Stoneface Jack]

Well, I'm going to have to wait until this year's caterpillars are here. So some time in June, if I remember correctly. They don't show up until there's milkweed to lay the eggs on. Collect the eggs and 3 days later you have caterpillars.
So, some time after that I can get started.
So, this should have about 9 months to cook if I make enough to be a supersoil ingredient, more like 10 months to a year if I make a top dressing. It'll have plenty of time, but I was thinking of putting it on a shelf in the garage that's well above the floor. Otherwise it would be in my basement, which is actually the warmest place in the house in winter. The composting process generates some heat anyway, though I would think a smaller container would be more vulnerable.
Now I just have to make sure the toxic compounds are unlikely to be taken up by the cannabis plants. They're only in trace amounts in the frass, but better safe than sorry when dealing with cardiac glucocides.