Prop 19 Discussion

[ClosetCase]

Under prop 19 which is up for a vote here in CA,severe penalties will apply to anyone under 21 who possesses or provides weed to anyone.Only those over 21 can have weed legally.Also,most provisions of prop 19 start with"notwithstanding"which means any and all laws regarding marijuana,even medical marijuana laws will be wiped out under prop 19.Read the bill and look how many times "notwithstanding" is used.Vote no on 19.The Gov,Arnold,just lowered the fine on an ounce or less to $100,and no adding to your arrest record,just a citation.Vote no on 19,this bill is backed by lawyers trying to generate clients and folks looking to set up a huge weed monopoly.Beware!!

 

[TorturedSoul]

Re: Prop 19 means no weed for teens!More...

Only $100.

Most of us would prefer not to have to spend that much on what should be no less than our right. But assuming for the moment that, unlike myself, you drop that much on designer coffee each week and consider it small change, you are still forgetting one thing.

For those who are not legal medicinal users, growing even one small plant in CA is a felony punishable by 16-36 months imprisonment.

Personally... I can't think of anyone who would like to experience that.

 

[SnowBender]

Re: Prop 19 means no weed for teens!More...

Can you explain why a healthy adult over 20 without a prop 215 rec should vote against being able to grow marijuana in their house?

also realize with legal pot probable cause busts are nearly eliminated. so risk of arrests to minors will be way less.

the chance of having a proposition for legal pot pass that allows 18 yos to smoke is zero. If pro 19 allowed the under 21 crowd to buy and the support would drop well below ~25%

if under 21 cant buy booze at the grocery, i dont see why they should similarly be able to buy weed.

PLUS, if you are under 21 you can still get a doctors rec and be legal....i do not see an issue here.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Re: Prop 19 means no weed for teens!More...

"For those who are not legal medicinal users, growing even one small plant in CA is a felony punishable by 16-36 months imprisonment."
If such a legal sanction is the rule, then, this is exactly what I speak of when I say that no good will come of legalization, as such will give the state the power to set its laws against law breakers, and for the courts to dispense "justice".

Forgive me, please. I'm sure that your statement makes sense to you, but the only way it makes any sense to me is if you are stating that it is good to be locked up. If my statement about punishment guidelines is true - and it is - then OF COURSE good will come from legalizing: The good of every adult 21 or over in the state of CA who wishes to grow their own recreational cannabis not having to worry about going to jail for growing one plant. Or two plants. Or as many plants as they wish to in a 25 square foot area.

How is that NOT good?

 

[Hogdady]

I am not trying to expose an evil. I am simply trying to articulate a rather important point. I might suggest you read Thomas Szasz's "Pharmacracy: the politics of medicine in America". The medical marijuana lobby is but one of many examples of how the state and medicine are now the ones to enlarge the scope of issues relating to public health (what of the traditional notion of patient-doctor?) The prevalent medical ideology, as it now presents itself in America, is a highly bureaucratized and politicized one. This medical marijuana issue is about courting the medical powers that be, who then use their power and prestige to sway opinion. This push to reintroduce marijuana into the pharmacopiae is not about personal freedoms, it is about the politics of special interests and of the medical statists' seal of approval. Those politicians who support the medicalizing of cannabis (as per strict govt. control, with the state licensed medical agent as gate keeper), have long since been indoctrinated by sacraments of health. Welcome to the Therapeutic state. Read the above mentioned book.

You can't grow Prozac in your backyard.....

 

[SnowBender]

Prop 19 means no weed for teens!

mods can we get the thread title changed as its just more pure prop 19 FUD?

While prop 19 does not mean teens will be legal like adults would be, kids still wont be treated any different under 19 than they are now. ($100 misdemeanor for 1 oz and under on 1-1-2011) the only change for under 21 with 19s passage will be reduced probable cause risks for searches and the resulting decrease in arrests.

We would need to first lower the drinking age to ever have a chance of a prop allowing under 21 year olds to smoke recreationally to pass.

 

[QUEENBUD00]

If prop. 19 means no pot for 19 and below... what about the 20 yr old ?

 

[Hogdady]

If prop. 19 means no pot for 19 and below... what about the 20 yr old ?

Same as alcohol....

 

[SnowBender]

under 21 can still get medical rec or just take chances with $100 misdemeanor, but still cant legally grow without a medical rec.

 

[discusted]

Under prop 19 which is up for a vote here in CA,severe penalties will apply to anyone under 21 who possesses or provides weed to anyone.Only those over 21 can have weed legally.Also,most provisions of prop 19 start with"notwithstanding"which means any and all laws regarding marijuana,even medical marijuana laws will be wiped out under prop 19.Read the bill and look how many times "notwithstanding" is used.Vote no on 19.The Gov,Arnold,just lowered the fine on an ounce or less to $100,and no adding to your arrest record,just a citation.Vote no on 19,this bill is backed by lawyers trying to generate clients and folks looking to set up a huge weed monopoly.Beware!!

Under prop 19 the penalty is greater for those over 21 supplying MJ to a minor, plus smoking in and around such minor.

I read a quip that the law already prohibits smoking around minors in your car. It does, but the definition of minor in this case is under the age of 18. at which point the minor can purchase and smoke legally.

As to MJ research has shown that the effects of MJ both short term and long term are far less severe than those of alcohol. when stoned I know I am stoned and act accordingly. When I was drunk I didn't know I was drunk until I was really drunk. Fortunately I and those around me survived that period of my life.

Right now and soon after Jan 11, with medical certificate I can grow and consume my own medicine at no costs beyond the direct cost of growing, harvesting and preparing.

After Prop 19, anyone over the age of 21 and 0 months can smoke, with restrictions, and grow under certain conditions.

What are these restrictions:
Cannot smoke in public
Cannot smoke in and around minors (under the age of 21)
Cannot legally grow, cultivate, harvest and prepare if minors have access to said area.
Cannot legally purchase except from a licensed facility or person.
Cannot transport more than 1 ounce of canibus, is interpreted to mean part of the plant as well as the whole plant. Just say that you are taking 1 of your plants to a friends to get help and instruction on how to trim.

Can Pay an undisclosed tax, per ounce? plant? plot? purchased or grown.
Can Pay high license fees to commercially grow and process.
Can pay high license fees for the privilege of selling the product.
Can pay attorneys to fight the vague interpretation of 19.
Can Spend time in jail for illegally buying from your local dealer, because a legal dispensary is 50 miles away.
Can smoke in my backyard while watching my kids play.
Can smoke in my home after the kids are in bed or outside.
Can smoke in my car traveling, risky but can do it. after Jan 1 just an infraction.

under medical certificate.

I can grow a minimum of 6 plants or more with recommendation. With reasonable security.
I can medicate anywhere that is not specifically prohibited by city or county ordinance. Such as in and around a medical dispensary, in or around a school or park, on public transportation.
I can medicate in my car, walking down the street, my front porch, on a hiking trail, riding my bike, sitting with my family and so forth, I would probably not smoke in front of children but young adults18 and over, sure..
I can medicate just about anywhere without reprisal from law enforcement.

Why would I want to surrender these freedoms?

 

[SnowBender]

under medical certificate.

I can grow a minimum of 6 plants or more with recommendation. With reasonable security.
I can medicate anywhere that is not specifically prohibited by city or county ordinance. Such as in and around a medical dispensary, in or around a school or park, on public transportation.
I can medicate in my car, walking down the street, my front porch, on a hiking trail, riding my bike, sitting with my family and so forth, I would probably not smoke in front of children but young adults18 and over, sure..
I can medicate just about anywhere without reprisal from law enforcement.

Why would I want to surrender these freedoms?

19 will not change 215
19 will not change 215
19 will not change 215
19 will not change 215
19 will not change 215
and..
19 will not change 215.

 

[discusted]

19 will not change 215
19 will not change 215
19 will not change 215
19 will not change 215
19 will not change 215
and..
19 will not change 215.

You are missing the point altogether. I was just listing comparatives.
19 only gives you the freedom to carry 1 oz or less, if you have no children then you can grow 25 sq feet without alot of restriction. You will have to pay taxes on your home grown product, probably a good bet it would be by lot or plant. then when someone steels you plants you have already paid the tax, oh well, 1 oz or less is legal.

The rest of the laws apply and even though I have no direct knowledge of any criminal codes that can be applied for any violations of 19.

I also am researching the legal definition of "notwithstanding" so far I can gather it could be interpreted to mean no other existing law precedes it. so it could void 215. It may not mean to and it may have reference to but there are many controlling sections without the addendum of 215 as well as one open clause that the municipalities can pass whatever they claim as long as they consider the health and welfare of the general public.

It just isn't so clear and cut.

 

[discusted]

Re: Prop 19 means no weed for teens!More...

Can you explain why a healthy adult over 20 without a prop 215 rec should vote against being able to grow marijuana in their house?

also realize with legal pot probable cause busts are nearly eliminated. so risk of arrests to minors will be way less.

the chance of having a proposition for legal pot pass that allows 18 yos to smoke is zero. If pro 19 allowed the under 21 crowd to buy and the support would drop well below ~25%

if under 21 cant buy booze at the grocery, i dont see why they should similarly be able to buy weed.

PLUS, if you are under 21 you can still get a doctors rec and be legal....i do not see an issue here.

I finally caught it. Snowbender you didn't realize what you said. "if you are under 21 you can still get a doctors rec and be legal....i do not see an issue here"

I don't see any issue here either, if you are under 21 or over.

I am against the legal age of drinking being 21, always have been since I turned 18. I can go to jail, I can go to war and possibly die, I can get married, I can enter into legal binding contracts and be held accountable for such, I can travel unfettered, as long as I follow the traveling rules. I can smoke and buy smoking materials, I can fly a plane solo, I can legally own a gun, I can gamble, I can run for political office, I can become a law enforcement officer and carry a gun, and just too much to list, BUT I CAN'T BUY A BEER. It's absurd.

So Mr Snowbender if it is ok for under 21 to acquire a medical certificate, then why isn't it ok for an adult over 21????????????

 

[SnowBender]

"So Mr Snowbender if it is ok for under 21 to acquire a medical certificate, then why isn't it ok for an adult over 21???????????? "

cause their not medically in need. they just want to recreate legally, and possibly support their state's tax base at the same time.

Mods - where's the ignore button?

 

[TorturedSoul]

19 only gives you the freedom to carry 1 oz or less

It also, as has been repeatedly mentioned here and many other venues, throws a serious monkey wrench into the majority of probable cause searches of your person, vehicle, and home.

if you have no children then you can grow 25 sq feet without alot of restriction

If you do have children, you stop growing on the coffee table in the middle of your living room and move it into a locked room or closet. Or you raise kids that are intelligent enough not to tell a policeman that your grow is in your living room.

You will have to pay taxes on your home grown product, probably a good bet it would be by lot or plant.

then when someone steels you plants

Totally irrevelant - whether or not a thief decides to steal from you is not decided by the government. If it is at all a concern in the general sense, I'd suggest that you purchase a decent lock, use your right to arm yourself, clean up your community and realize that the "Mayberry snydrome" has nothing to do with the size of your town, but rather the people who live in it and how they choose to treat themselves and their community and, and/or move. I'm poor and live in the "shady" side of town. That means, among other things, that I can stand on my property and bounce a rock off the local strip club. But I can still leave the keys in my ignition and when my lawn mower gave up the ghost last year and my grass got a little tall, a neighbor stopped by to make sure that I was ok.

If it is a concern in the specific sense, don't tell thieves that you're growing cannabis, lol.

you have already paid the tax

It is my understanding that any tax that can be assigned/collected is only in regards to cannabis that is grown for commercial sales in those locations that decide to allow it.

oh well, 1 oz or less is legal.

Yep. No need for a person to have a medical condition (or defraud the government by stating that they do if they do not).

I also am researching the legal definition of "notwithstanding" so far I can gather it could be interpreted to mean no other existing law precedes it. so it could void 215. It may not mean to and it may have reference to but there are many controlling sections without the addendum of 215 as well as one open clause that the municipalities can pass whatever they claim as long as they consider the health and welfare of the general public.

It just isn't so clear and cut.

The lawyer that I talked to told me that such is definitely and clearly not the case. He went on to inform me that it was worded like that so that there would be NO ambiguity (we had a chuckle over the utter failure of that to work where the voting public was concerned, lol) where this was concerned in the eyes of both prosecuting & defense attorneys and judges who bothered to familiarize themselves with the language of it - as all should do when faced with a trial (or possible trial) that it covers in order to avoid legal repercussions of their own. Perhaps the term you are thinking of is "supersedes?" He mentioned that if Proposition 19 WERE to void 215, it would have stated that it superseded Proposition 215. When I asked him why it did not then specifically state that it did NOT supersede Proposition 215, he replied that if it had been worded that way, it would have had the effect of excluding Proposition 215 medicinal users from any possible additional benefits that they might otherwise have received from Proposition 19.

where's the ignore button?

It's in your User CP, on the left, under Settings & Options, last link.

 

[SnowBender]

If theres any gorup that should be 100% for passage of 19, its the medical pot community that should be.

There is no doc rec needed to use Robitussin DM, NyQuil or to grow and drink chamomile...and similarly there should be no reason to need a doc's rec for pot either.

If you need more meds than a 5'x'5 can produce,or need to carry more than one oz, or unable to grow and need a caregiver, or if under 21, then you can get a Dr. rec.

 

[Hogdady]

Why not a truly free-market of medicine, shorn of the unnecessary meddling by the state?

Good luck with that one.....

 

[Hogdady]

There are those of us who are quite aware of the dangers associated with the power the govt has amassed. However, I beleive we are vastly outnumbered by the sheeple that have gladly embraced the govt as savior and benefactor.....

 

[jeffs0418]

It is my understanding that any tax that can be assigned/collected is only in regards to cannabis that is grown for commercial sales in those locations that decide to allow it.

I think when these 2 entities (government and commercial grower) start losing revenue because of the explosion of 25 sq ft (tax free) gardens this could change.

 

[Hogdady]

I think when these 2 entities (government and commercial grower) start losing revenue because of the explosion of 25 sq ft (tax free) gardens this could change.

1) The govt is going to make/save huge amounts of money regardless...

2) I doubt that there will be "an explosion" of home grows. How many beer drinkers brew their own? It will be easier/cheaper to buy it at the local Cannabis store.....